Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved

[Dan Clarkston]

You can’t reap salvation

That's not what God's Word says homie!

Galatians 6:7,8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is talking about rewards. Salvation is not a reward. You can’t reap salvation

And I agree 100%. If we grow weary our reward will be burnt as wood hay and straw

Of course we can reap salvation:

Sanctification is on-going
and so
Salvation is on-going.....

We WERE saved:
Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; ...


We ARE BEING saved:
1 Corinthians 1:18
...but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


We WILL BE saved:
1 Peter 1:5
5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



And JESUS stated:

John 5:28
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



And Paul taught:

Romans 2:6
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:


Paul agreed with Jesus.
Do you?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes

Who moves away from the gospel? Paul warned the jew about moving back to law. He warned other people to not move away.

If Paul is warning, it must be important.
I agree that Hebrews 6 is for the Jews going back to Judaism; however, we can also go back
to our previous unsaved life. There are some that do this.

So what do you think persons are MOVING AWAY from?
Obviously it's their faith.

Why do people move away from something?

Is it because they had true faith in that something? and changed their mind?

Is it because The person they trusted let them down, He was proven to be untrustworthy?

or is it because they really did not have true faith to begin with?

the first two in my view go hand in hand, The only way you would change you mind is if the person you trust became untrustworthy, Now I know trust in humans can turn bad. Humans change, and they also are very untrustworthy. Thats why people get married then a few years later want out of the marraige, Because either you really did not love that person to begin with, Or they were not who you thought they were.

People change their mind for many reasons.
But let's use scriptue:

Here Paul is speaking of THE CHOSEN (us):
2 Timothy 2:10-13
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

But we are talking about God here, Is God untrustworthy? Is his promise untrustworthy? is his love untrustworthy?

I think John said it best, they went out from us, but they were NEVER of us, for if they were of us THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE LEFT. but they left to expose the fact they truly were never of us.

John meant the gnostics EG.
Let's be intellectually honest here.
He was concerned about gnosticism before he died, it had already crept into the church.

I do not believe people lose salvation. I think they never had it.

This is NOT what Jesus taught.
Jesus taught that persons could BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then fall away:

Luke 8:13
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Now I can not judge anyone, if I saw someone that I knew as a believer out doing things they should not be doing, because they walked away from the church (I did that for 5 year as a prodigal child) could I say they were never saved as some do? No. Could I say they lost salvation as some do? No.

I never lost faith in God. I lost faith in the church and people and in my depression looked for things to help me (which they never did) but God chastened me and brought me back by taking me to my knees. and I praise him for that

The above is your PERSONAL experience.
Not everyone has YOUR experience.
Some fall away from their faith, as the NT teaches.

Paul and Jesus are not speaking about falling away from THE CHURCH.
There was no church at the time.

They teach about not falling away from faith because our very soul is at stake.

James 5:19-20
19My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

But when God says we will never die. When he says we have eternal life. When he says he will raise us on the last day. When he says we have passed from death to Life, When God says he has given us the spirit as a pledge until the day of redemption. When Paul says he is confident that he who began a good work (God) will complete it until the day of CHrist, When God makes this promise, that he will NEVER leave us nor forsake us (we cannot go anywhere God is not there)

then my hope and faith is in those promises. As Paul says, I have the hope of eternal life, which God, who can not lie, promised before time began.

We have eternal life for as long as we remain in Christ.

Yu say OSAS is not found in scripture. I agree, you will not find those words or that acronym anywhere. But You will not find anywhere in the word that someone who has been born again, adopted as Gods child. and given eternal life, has ever or will ever lose salvation. Its just not there.

I gave you verses up above.

Thats why I give you those verses. Because the bible can not say one things in one place (the verses I give) then say the opposite or contradict itself in others (some of the verses you give me) we must resolve the apparent contradiction. and Adjust our belief system to the interpretation where ALL the verses are in agreement, and there is no contradiction

Exactly. You must reconcile verses that SEEM to be different.
I do this, but it makes no difference to you or anyone that believes in OSAS....
however, it's a very dangerous teaching.

Praise God for his love and mercy, I am eternally grateful for the massive gift he gave to me,, a gift I can not earn, I can not fathom, and I can not at times understand, why he would save a wretched soul like myself

You cannot earn it,
but you must take care of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see you added to this post. So I will continue




I disagree with your Interpretation of COl 1: 23. If paul said what you said, then we do not have eternal life. Jesus said we will never perish. Jesus did not say we will never perish as long as we do something, or we have eternal life and place a condition on it. So when I read John 3 and Col 1 there is an apparent contradiction. I must resolve it.. which I have,, People who have true saving faith continue, they may fall nto sin, They may become prodigal children, But they will not become a non believer.

Colossians 1:23 are not my words .... Paul wrote those words.
They're in plain English and need no interpretation.

Some just can't accept the simple truth found in the NT.

Also notice in John 3, It says he who does not believe is condemned already. if your already in a state of condemnation, You never came out of it.. thus you did not fall back into it..

It does not say we must continue to believe, Thats a false narrative, it does not say he who believes has eternal life as long as he continues to believe (and if this was the case. then they do not really have eternal life. they have conditional life)

Of course it states that we must CONTINUE to believe.
Sanctification is on-going.

I've given you enough verses in my post just above.
Must leave soon.

1. Does it say they need to keep drinking?

Jesus did not say drink this for the rest of your life. He says whoever drinks.. its a one time event

Abandon God? Who abandons God? Where can we go that we can hide from God and he is not there wherever we are?



Nom I do not believe God, who said he will never abandon us, will abandon us even if we walk away as prodigal children

GOD DOES NOT ABANDON US.
WE ABANDON HIM.

Which verse did I EVER post that states God leaves us?
NONE!

Jesus died to save us not to abandon us.

And I do not believe a person who walks away and is now against christ (a non believer) was ever of us, for if they were of us, as John said they never would have left.



Read the entire passage and do nto stop in the middle of a verse.

It says it is impossible. What is impossible.

"if they fall away, to renew them to repentance"

It does not say they fell away, it says IF they fall away (if it were possible) they could never get saved again, they would be lost forever. The law says you can fall away, so you have to return to sacrifice and burnt offering, which the author said can never take away sin. The author is telling these jews thinking of going back to law. why? If you go back and you fall away, There is no hope. you will never come back (and its true, I know many who left the church and have never come back and I know many who left legalism, then returned, and will not even think of coming back to grace.. You go to where your true heart lies. where you faith really is, You may try new things out, but yu will always go where your heart is, Like a dog, Unless you are changed, you will always be a dog. and return to your vomit

The point is that THEY LEFT....
If you LEFT,,,,it means you were SOMEWHERE and then you LEFT that somewhere.
Simple EG,,,I can't debate this because there's nothing to debate.

You yourself say above that something was left.....faith was left.
Just as Jesus says in Luke 8:13
THEY BELIEVED FOR A WHILE.

Peter say they Knew the way to righteousness, He did nto say they recieved and entrusted this way.

I agree with peter. If you have the truth in your hands, and wakk away before you make it yours. Then it would be better off if you never knew it, Now you have to spend eternity kicking yourself because you had it in your hands and you let it go.

The gospel. they are returning to what they truly have faith in, in one group the law. in the other (I would have to get context, but probably the world)

Shall not come to judgment, and has passed from death to life..
try not to focus on the word believe, and focus on what it says they will get, It does not say they will only get it if they continue to believe..

So I can eat this bread from heaven today, This food which will endure forever. But I can still even after I eat it, die? or do I have to keep eating it? If so. why is it called the food that endures forever. which I can eat and not die, unlike the manna, where they ate every day, and yet they still died.

Don;t focus on the word present tense. He is saying if you read this, and you ate this food. you have Gods promise you will recieve all those things..

DON:T keep eating food which perishes.. but food which will endure to eternal life.. Like the water in John 4 you do not keep drinking and eating,, That is the point Jesus was making

I did..

The food Jesus gives lasts forever.
Do you receive communion?
Is that the spiritual food Jesus gives you?
Do you eat physical food only once?
Same.
We must eat spiritual food always.

It's the FOOD that lasts forever,
unlike the manna that fell in the desert.
That lasted only one day.
Jesus' food is ALWAYS good and fresh and ready to be eaten.

But eaten it must be.
It's our spiritual nourishment.

 

[GodsGrace]

And here you go

What could you or I possibly do to get God to forgive one sin, and let us into Heaven

Did Jesus said :it is finished" or did he say, i did my part. now you do yours?

Anytime we look to self. We should be afraid.

Amen, Part of the sanctification process is producing fruit. we produce fruit when we sacrifice our needs for the needs of others

Once again, Try not to cut off a passage before you end, Remember, the bible was not written in verse form.

lets look at the whole of what Jesus said

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

first notice here, are these things not the will of God? Are these things not doing good deeds?

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Notice here

1. He never knew them (they were never saved)
2. Even though they did these things, He said the practiced sin..

Where does Matthew 7:23 state that they were never saved?
Where does Jesus ever speak about being saved?
He always speaks about doing good works.
You ADD to scripture to make it say what you want it to.

Matthew 7:23
’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


Where?
Does it say that Jesus said this because they were not saved?
It says:
DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Jesus was concerned about BEHAVIOR.

They failed to recieve the gospel. as I see it, these people thought these good deeds are what saved them, it was them doing THERE PART, and that is why they tell Jesus of all these works.

Me? I will be on my face, I will not brag of all my works, Jesus knows what they are I do not need to tell him, I will tell him the truth, I am unworthy



Yes, If we want to follow in Jesus footsteps. this is what we must do

But that snot how we get saved, we can deny ourselves all we want, we will still be lost, dead in sin

Yes, I hope you now understand the way I see them

Must go.

 

[Runningman]

for we have been saved (a completed action) by Grace through faith

You can not remove faith from the equation

and you can not twist it and say this faith we are saved through is our own faith, Because it is not faith in ourselves. it is who our faith is in that saves us,

What's your take on Paul's statement of conditional salvation being dependent upon continued belief? He said one can believe in vain, i.e., their loss of belief can result in no effect (no salvation).

1 Corinthians 15
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's not what God's Word says homie!

Galatians 6:7,8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

I sowed to the spirit when I fell on my knees and called out to God as the tax collector.

But hey, If you think You can earn your salvation, feel free. don;t let me try to stop you. You can explain to god why he did not finish his work in you as he promised he would

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course we can reap salvation:

Sanctification is on-going
and so
Salvation is on-going.....

We WERE saved:
Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; ...


We ARE BEING saved:
1 Corinthians 1:18
...but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


We WILL BE saved:
1 Peter 1:5
5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



And JESUS stated:

John 5:28
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



And Paul taught:

Romans 2:6
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:


Paul agreed with Jesus.
Do you?

Again, You have to take context

I have been saved from the penalty of sin (Justification) as found in John 3, John 4 John 5 John 6, Eph 1, Eph 2, Titus 3 and so many other passages.


I am being saved from the power of sin (sanctification) an ongoing process until the deay of redemption or the day I die

I will be saved from the ability to sin, this is called glorification. and happens on the day of redemption. which is why the seal of the spirit is no longer needed after that day (paul said 3 times we are sealed with the spirit until the day of redemption)

We can not earn or reap salvation from the penalty of sin, Jesus paid that debt on the cross

Will will reap or earn reward on how much fruit we produce in the sanctification process.

To many people want to say justification is dependent on sanctification. This is an extreme error. and will just lead people down the wrong path. they will continually look to self. not God (even if they deny it) and will not become poor in spirit.. They are too busy trying to earn it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If Paul is warning, it must be important.
I agree that Hebrews 6 is for the Jews going back to Judaism; however, we can also go back
to our previous unsaved life. There are some that do this.

I disagree and I believe the scripture does also

A dog returns to his vomit (unsaved life) a dog was always a dog. and like the jew who trusted the law could not come to faith in Christ and returned to what they were, the dog (sinner) returns to what he really is, a sinner.

John said whoever sins (whoever lives in sin) has never seen or known God. so if a Person could go back to sin, then there will be people who did know God (when they were saved) and now, are living in sin again, Which makes John a liar. John also said they were never of us,,

The same author of Hebrews makes it clear, we are not of those who return to perdition.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Again, the argument in Heb 6 is against those who say we can lose salvation and be saved again, by what we do (in this case, the animal sacrifice) the argument is one, they can not lose salvation, if if they COULD, they could never be saved again.

So what do you think persons are MOVING AWAY from?
Obviously it's their faith.

Its the gospel They never had faith, if they did, they would not move away, which is my point, and believe the author of Hebrews point.

People change their mind for many reasons.
But let's use scriptue:

We are talking about our eternal destiny here, Not about our faith that if I sleep with this or that person outside of marraige I will be struck dead or something.

People do not come to the point they are totally broken, receive their salvation by calling out to God as the tax collector. experience the love of God by the spirit coming into us, and having his word revealed to us and opening our eyes. only to change our mind and all of a sudden say they did not really believe they were really broken or needed saved., and tell God never mind, they do not need saved they got it.

Here Paul is speaking of THE CHOSEN (us):
2 Timothy 2:10-13
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

1. Paul said he is enduring for the sake of the people who need to hear the message and be saved themselves. working out his salvation as he said in another passage

11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

Take a look at this, when did we die with him? Was it not back when we were saved? And what does it say, if this happened WE WILL LIVE.

That is eternal security

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;

Yes, If we endure WITH HIM, we will REIGN

This tells me there may be some in heaven that will not reign, they will be relegated to lower positions.

But again, Look at what he said first. I died the moment I was saved and was born again, I will live, there is no conditions there, it is a promise, a statement of fact.

If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

If we deny him, we are an antichrist, what is an antichrist but one who deny's christ.

John tells us this in John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


And what did he say about them?

again in 1 John 2: 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

These people who were with us in the chuch, who have left, and deny Christ, were never of us, they were never saved.

John even says we are not of them We have the anointing they did not recieve

1 John 2: 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

so these people will be deny's by christ, because they were never of him, they rejected him and never came to saving faith.

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Here again is key, If we become faithless, he remains faithul, He can not deny himself. If he would deny us salvation after giving it to us based on his grace and mercy, then deny it, He would deny himself. Because he went back on his own promise.

John meant the gnostics EG.
Let's be intellectually honest here.
He was concerned about gnosticism before he died, it had already crept into the church.

If you want to hold to this view. you will not understand John at all.

He was honest about the truth, What he says applys to us today, and every day, just like what Paul said to the jew applies to us.

The gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were decieved. Yes, But I know christians who claim they have no sin, they are just as guilty and decieved as the gnostics were

This is NOT what Jesus taught.
Jesus taught that persons could BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then fall away:

Luke 8:13
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Did they produce fruit? No
Did they have true saving faith? No

Were they saved? No.

A person who is truly saved will work, they will produce fruit. because they have been born of God.

non of the other three were attached to the vine, their root was dry because it had no root to establish their faith. their faith was dead.

The above is your PERSONAL experience.
Not everyone has YOUR experience.
Some fall away from their faith, as the NT teaches.

Then as John says, they were never of us,, If they were of us, they never would have left.

I cannot make the word contradict itself.

Paul and Jesus are not speaking about falling away from THE CHURCH.
There was no church at the time.

The church has been in existance since the begining of time, the word church comes from the word Ekklesia, which means a gathering, Israel would be called the oT church, People were gathering together in Pauls and Jesus day, that is the church.

sadly the church has forgot its own roots. Church is not a building, jesus said where two or three are gathered there I am also

They teach about not falling away from faith because our very soul is at stake.

James 5:19-20
19My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Then we are saved by works. If you think you can earn salvation. I guess go for it

I cannot make the word contradict itself. And I will never look God in the eye and say I am worthy, Because I woukd be the most decieved person alive

We have eternal life for as long as we remain in Christ.

Then we do not have eternal life, we have conditional life, In another thread I spoke of how we need to look to the definition of the word.

The word eternal life literally means I will live forever.

I gave you verses up above.

Responded

Exactly. You must reconcile verses that SEEM to be different.

I have,

I do this, but it makes no difference to you or anyone that believes in OSAS....
however, it's a very dangerous teaching.

You have not. In your interretation words do not have their same meaning, and the word contradicts.

John said we have etrrnal life. You said we may not have eternal life or we have conditional life. just one example.

You cannot earn it,
but you must take care of it.

Taking care of it would be earning it.

I wish I could convince you of that basic truth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Colossians 1:23 are not my words .... Paul wrote those words.
They're in plain English and need no interpretation.

Some just can't accept the simple truth found in the NT.

I do not accept your interpretation of those words. as they cause Jesus to contradict himself as well as paul

You did not need that last comment. that was rude

Of course it states that we must CONTINUE to believe.
Sanctification is on-going.

Yes it is, Justification is a completed action.

Sanctification will not dave you, The only way it could is if you became perfect. and that will not happen in this lifetime, and even if you did stop all sin, you still would be found guilty of your past sin.

I've given you enough verses in my post just above.
Must leave soon.

And I have discussed those verses, and put them in perspective

GOD DOES NOT ABANDON US.
WE ABANDON HIM.

WHERE CAN WE GO THAT GOD IS NOT THERE? (I can yell too)

You can;t leave God. No matter where you go. on the highest mounten, in the deepest parts of the earth, God is right there.

When God said he will never leave nor forsake us, He means it..

Which verse did I EVER post that states God leaves us?
NONE!

When you claim we can leave God. You claim God stops holding onto us and claim God in effect leaves us.

One thing I have learned, is when you make a statement, look at all options of that statement. I can not leave God. no matter where I would Go God would still be right there, So God would have to leave me,, Which means he has denied himself

Jesus died to save us not to abandon us.

I was saved.

There are those that say I am saved, but I might not be saved depending on what I do. Which means I really am not saved now am I

Gain, look to defenition of words.

The point is that THEY LEFT....
If you LEFT,,,,it means you were SOMEWHERE and then you LEFT that somewhere.
Simple EG,,,I can't debate this because there's nothing to debate.

John said THEY WERE NEVER OF US.

The reason God did not follow them, is because God never had a hold of them.. God never left them, God was never a part of them, nor were they a true part of God.

Your putting to much focus on self sis. Start looking to God.. He said he will keep you. He said he will complete the work he started. He said you were perfected forever already, Now he is sanctifying you, a lifelong event which will culminate in heaven

You yourself say above that something was left.....faith was left.
Just as Jesus says in Luke 8:13
THEY BELIEVED FOR A WHILE.

The believed, James said Demons believe and tremble

I canbelieve something yet not have any faith in that something at all. Do you understand the difference?

The food Jesus gives lasts forever.
Do you receive communion?

Communion does not last forever. if it did I would not need to keep eating it. It would be life sustaining forever just like jesus said

Is that the spiritual food Jesus gives you?

No. it is the words that Jesus spoke, they are spirit and they are life

Do you eat physical food only once?

Like eating manna? No, of course, not The fathers ate manna and died, I eat physical food, but I will still die

Jesus said to eat the food which endures forever. which one can eat and not die.

Have you ate that food?

Same.
We must eat spiritual food always.

Yes, I have different spiritual needs.

But the one need I have, has been absolved and I will never hunger again. Just like Jesus said

It's the FOOD that lasts forever,
unlike the manna that fell in the desert.
That lasted only one day.
Jesus' food is ALWAYS good and fresh and ready to be eaten.

No. Jesus said you eat it once, Not like you eat the food in the desert.

Thats why he said you will never hunger or thirst, and you will live forever.

You can not get that from physical food..

But eaten it must be.
It's our spiritual nourishment.

I ate it 40 years ago. and like jesus said, it endures forever. My eternity is secure, I will never die, I will never hunger (for eternal kife) I will never thirst, I will be ressurected. I have Gods assurance of that.

If I do not have that assurance, my hope is baseless and I am lost. I might as well walk away, because I am hopeless. Because God lied

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I sowed to the spirit when I fell on my knees and called out to God as the tax collector.

Too bad you did not read the rest of God's Word... to be carnally minded IS death we see in Romans 8 which was written to Christians.

Your view is that one can do sin after getting saved and there are NO consequences

That's the same con the devil played in Adam and Eve claiming they could disobey the Lord (sow to the flesh) and not die spiritually.

Romans 8 yells us if we sow to the flesh we shall die spiritually... which is why the Lord put 1 John 1:9 in His Word so we could confess out sin if we were to sin so He could cleanse is of all unrighteousness.

Those that claim sin does not separate us from the Lord (after we get born again) are mocking God according to Gal 6:7,8

I'll ask the Lord to help you get delivered from the mockery you are making of the Lord and His Word.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And yes, no one will pluck us out of the hand of God....
But we can walk away on our own....

So Jesus says no man can pluck one out of His hands but you say that this verse says a man can pluck himself. So those who walk away are not men.

Heb. 13:5 says Jesus will never leave us nor forsake us. but, according to your thinking, if I choose to walk away He will leave and forsake me.

Ephesians says I am sealed until the day of redemption, but according to you I can break Gods seal on my own.

Jesus says any one who comes to Him He will not cast out. But I can cast myself out?

YOu misunderstand the verses in Peter. It is not about staying saved, but going back to ones former lifestyle

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We were discussing Galatians 6:9 and how it relates to the possibility of the forfeiture of our salvation.

6:9
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.


I can agree with your agricultural example.
IF the farmer puts in the work....he will reap a good harvest.
If not, the crop will die.

So, you're exactly confirming the previous post of mine.
Galatians states that we will reap, IF WE DO NOT GROW WEARY.

This means that it's POSSIBLE TO GROW WEARY.
IF we grow weary we will not reap.

This disproves the idea that salvation cannot be lost.
It can be lost because, under certain circumstances, WE WILL NOT REAP.

Except you are saying we stay saved by goods works which is unbiblical. We stay saved by Jesus alone and the good works a believer does is the result of salvation. Throughout Pauls writings He speaks of rewards for good works but not "staying saved".

The bible gives two explicit descriptions of people who appeared to be christian but were never believers. It is only through misunderstanding verses or reinterpreting verses that one comes to teh conclusion that a believer, one who has been born again, made a new creature, perfected FOREVER, is being made holy, sealed, justified, glorified, hidden in Jesus and already seatred in heavenly places can become un-born again and lose eternal life. If one can lose eternal life then it was never eternal to begin with.

It also says that a man can override the will of God and that Gods will is subservient to a person swill in the matter of salvation.

It also means that God would save some people only to unsave them later.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Too bad you did not read the rest of God's Word... to be carnally minded IS death we see in Romans 8 which was written to Christians.

Your view is that one can do sin after getting saved and there are NO consequences

That's the same con the devil played in Adam and Eve claiming they could disobey the Lord (sow to the flesh) and not die spiritually.

Romans 8 yells us if we sow to the flesh we shall die spiritually... which is why the Lord put 1 John 1:9 in His Word so we could confess out sin if we were to sin so He could cleanse is of all unrighteousness.

Those that claim sin does not separate us from the Lord (after we get born again) are mocking God according to Gal 6:7,8

I'll ask the Lord to help you get delivered from the mockery you are making of the Lord and His Word.

to bad your reject the call of God and reject and completely lack faith tht God wil change his people and he will not fail

Again, Paul said he is confident that God will complete the work he started.

If you do not trust God to do that. You do not trust God at all

 

[GodsGrace]

So Jesus says no man can pluck one out of His hands but you say that this verse says a man can pluck himself. So those who walk away are not men.

Heb. 13:5 says Jesus will never leave us nor forsake us. but, according to your thinking, if I choose to walk away He will leave and forsake me.

Ephesians says I am sealed until the day of redemption, but according to you I can break Gods seal on my own.

Jesus says any one who comes to Him He will not cast out. But I can cast myself out?

YOu misunderstand the verses in Peter. It is not about staying saved, but going back to ones former lifestyle

I SAID that God will NEVER LEAVE US....
but that we can leave Him.

Actually both Jesus and Paul stated as such.

Paul said even he can be disqualified from final salvation:
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.


The following is about FALLING AWAY and DOING GOOD WORKS, necessary for salvation:
Revelation 2:4-5
4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. 5If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.


Yes sir, YOU can cast YOURSELF out of the Body of Christ:
Romans 11:19-22
19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.


And JESUS stated:

Luke 17:10
9“He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
10“So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”


Paul and Jesus do not agree with you.
I only post scripture.
My opinions are not on these pages.

But they are full of yours.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I SAID that God will NEVER LEAVE US....
but that we can leave Him.

Actually both Jesus and Paul stated as such.

Paul said even he can be disqualified from final salvation:
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.


The following is about FALLING AWAY and DOING GOOD WORKS, necessary for salvation:
Revelation 2:4-5
4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. 5If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.


Yes sir, YOU can cast YOURSELF out of the Body of Christ:
Romans 11:19-22
19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.


And JESUS stated:

Luke 17:10
9“He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
10“So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”


Paul and Jesus do not agree with you.
I only post scripture.
My opinions are not on these pages.

But they are full of yours.

Disqualified,

Can you explain how we have to be saved by Grace, because we can not earn it by works, then can somehow bcome unquaified? How can you not earn salvation. Yet at the same time b qualified (earn) it?

Gods people obey him, They are no longer dogs. They do not act different for a time, then return to being a dog because they are a new creature created in christ, but because they wer never a new creature. They are the same old person.

I have asked a few times, Maybe you wil answer

Paul said he is confident that he who began a good work will complete it. Why are you not confident of this one thing?

 

[Lizbeth]

Perseverance. An unfortunate word choice for the "TULIP" acronym.

It should have been "PRESERVATION of the saints" instead. This puts the emphasis not upon us, but upon God's power to retain our salvation status.

"Once saved always saved". Another unfortunate word choice for the "OSAS" acronym.

It should be "Once a SON, always a son" instead. God's adoption of individuals as His children is never rescinded. We are not foster children to be shuttled from one house to another. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God" and as His children, we will receive all the promises which God has made regarding His children. Those promises also include chastisement - even scourging - for those of His children who become disobedient. The level of rewards for God's children in eternity at the judgment is directly related to our behavior in this life. For those children of God who build upon that foundation works of "wood, hay, and stubble", they will suffer a loss of rewards, yet still will be saved, "yet so as by fire".

Building with wood hay and stubble is not the same thing as falling away and living in sin. We must endure to the end to be saved....that is the patience/perseverance of the saints. God's gracious promises and His ability/power are based on the assumption or condition of not falling away but enduring. Jesus said as long as we remain in Him, He will remain in us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Building with wood hay and stubble is not the same thing as falling away and living in sin. We must endure to the end to be saved....that is the patience/perseverance of the saints. God's gracious promises and His ability/power are based on the assumption or condition of not falling away but enduring. Jesus said as long as we remain in Him, He will remain in us.

Did he not say he would never leave nor forsake us?

Where can we go that he is not there also. Where can you hide that he is not there. He is in you. And we are told he is there until the day of redemption

 

[3 Resurrections]

Building with wood hay and stubble is not the same thing as falling away and living in sin. We must endure to the end to be saved....that is the patience/perseverance of the saints. God's gracious promises and His ability/power are based on the assumption or condition of not falling away but enduring. Jesus said as long as we remain in Him, He will remain in us.

As Christ taught in John 7:38-39, once the Holy Spirit takes up residence within a person, it serves as an inexhaustible source of living water springing up within that person that is never removed. You cannot abandon the presence of this Holy Spirit, because Christ promised that His Holy Spirit would remain with His believers "FOREVER" (John 14:16). You may muddy the waters of that spring and "grieve the Holy Spirit" by your actions as a disobedient son or daughter of God, but that daughter / son status is never changed once God adopts a person.
As @Eternally Grateful emphasized above, "we are sealed until the day of redemption".

God's "seal" is never broken. 2 Timothy 2:19 tells us, "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, 'The Lord knoweth them that are his'. And 'Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity'." That fixed number of adopted children of God never loses a single one of that number, regardless if they maintain a constantly-obedient life or not. There is not a man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not. The ability to recognize that we still commit sin as believers and constantly need forgiveness and an advocate in heaven for those sins as children of God is a mark of a believer.

We are not ultimately saved at the final judgment by our own efforts of trying to maintain righteous deeds. Scripture makes that very clear. "For it is GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU, both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13). Even if a believer were able to keep God's commands perfectly until the day of their death, they would still have to confess, "We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." (Luke 17:10).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I SAID that God will NEVER LEAVE US....
but that we can leave Him.

Actually both Jesus and Paul stated as such.

Paul said even he can be disqualified from final salvation:
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Sorry but that is not one leaving God.

Do you realize how foolish it sounds when you say God will never leave us but we can leave Him! Is god chained so that we can walk away from Him? Is He locked in a room? If god will never leave us- How can we leave Him???????????????????????????

He will never leave us- so if I turn right He does for He will not leave me. If I turn around and walk from where I came, He will not leave me so He walks with me!

1 Cor. 9:27 is about losing ones standing within the body- not losing ones salvation. For Paul, it would mean him losing his position as apostle but not losing his salvation.