Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved

[Scott Downey]

We were discussing Galatians 6:9 and how it relates to the possibility of the forfeiture of our salvation.

6:9
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.


I can agree with your agricultural example.
IF the farmer puts in the work....he will reap a good harvest.
If not, the crop will die.

So, you're exactly confirming the previous post of mine.
Galatians states that we will reap, IF WE DO NOT GROW WEARY.

This means that it's POSSIBLE TO GROW WEARY.
IF we grow weary we will not reap.

This disproves the idea that salvation cannot be lost.
It can be lost because, under certain circumstances, WE WILL NOT REAP.

9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

The AND signifies here is another thing, and this other thing is good works which benefit men, of which when we do them God is pleased, but good works do not save us, at best they are an outward sign of our being saved. Good works God prepared before hand for us to do, that we should walk in, as Ephesians 2 says.

Reap here in verse 9, is about rewards, not salvation as we don't reap our own salvation.
If it is like you say, then doing good works is what saved us.
Those not born again, sow to the flesh, as that is all they are of.

The prior verse mention sowing to the flesh (the damned), vs sowing to the Spirit (the saved do this).
But they do that as God has ordained to them their new nature being born of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, You have to take context

I have been saved from the penalty of sin (Justification) as found in John 3, John 4 John 5 John 6, Eph 1, Eph 2, Titus 3 and so many other passages.


I am being saved from the power of sin (sanctification) an ongoing process until the deay of redemption or the day I die

I will be saved from the ability to sin, this is called glorification. and happens on the day of redemption. which is why the seal of the spirit is no longer needed after that day (paul said 3 times we are sealed with the spirit until the day of redemption)

Agreed on this.
But you state that you are being saved till the day you die.
The problem, as I see it, is that you believe one cannot fall away from the faith....
after many verses I've posted stating the opposite.

When we become saved we do not lose our free will.
We still have free will to walk away from God.

Matthew 24:10-13
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

No matter the circumstances, we must endure till the end.

We can not earn or reap salvation from the penalty of sin, Jesus paid that debt on the cross

Jesus paid for the SIN OF THE WORLD.
He bought us back from satan.
We were ransomed and He saved us.

Salvation is a free gift...but we must guard that free gift.

Paul was thoughtful of the fact that even HE could lose this gift:
1 Corinthians 9:27
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Will will reap or earn reward on how much fruit we produce in the sanctification process.

The bible doesn't say God will be weighing the fruit....
Jesus only states that we must produce fruit.
Jesus says this....not me.

Jesus said that His Father is the Vine Keeper.
He will prune away the branches that do not yield fruit.
John 15:1

To many people want to say justification is dependent on sanctification. This is an extreme error. and will just lead people down the wrong path. they will continually look to self. not God (even if they deny it) and will not become poor in spirit.. They are too busy trying to earn it.

No. What will lead many astray is giving the impression that we are saved NO MATTER WHAT and that God demands nothing of us because Jesus has already done it all.

The NT does not teach this.

Colossians 1:10
So as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

John 15:8
By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.


Now, we might bear fruit out of fear or out of love,
but the fact remains that the NT teaches that we MUST bear good fruit.

 

[Scott Downey]

We bear good fruit as God has ordained that we will.
John 15
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

Matthew 7:17, Jesus says, A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

That one thing Jesus said absolutely tells us that if God has saved us, we will bear only good fruit.
NOT a mixture of bad and good fruit together... A bad tree is cut down and thrown into the fire of hell.

How many of you will argue with Christ?
The old man of the flesh only bears bad fruit, while the new man of the Spirit only bears good fruit.
This means eternal salvation is an eternal redemption.

Bearing good fruit is a visible witness to the world of our being saved.
And bearing good fruit is that we experience the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Fruits here are due to God at work within us, so that we as the good trees bear the good fruits.
Some bear more, some less, but all of God's people bear good fruit, not bad fruit. It is impossible for God's people, His family, to bear bad fruit.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits​

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You​

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Build on the Rock​

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

 

[Scott Downey]

Even so the fruits of the Holy Spirit, this is talking about the good fruit.
Those fruits of the Holy Spirit are juxtaposed with the works *fruits of the flesh.

Those who have the fruits of the Spirit, only they are saved.
Those who have the works of the flesh are damned.

. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You must be born again of the Spirit, or you're the bad tree and you are bearing bad fruit, you will be cut down by the Holy Angels and cast into the fire.

Galatians 5

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [g]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[GodsGrace]

So Jesus says no man can pluck one out of His hands but you say that this verse says a man can pluck himself. So those who walk away are not men.

Heb. 13:5 says Jesus will never leave us nor forsake us. but, according to your thinking, if I choose to walk away He will leave and forsake me.

Ephesians says I am sealed until the day of redemption, but according to you I can break Gods seal on my own.

Jesus says any one who comes to Him He will not cast out. But I can cast myself out?

YOu misunderstand the verses in Peter. It is not about staying saved, but going back to ones former lifestyle

Let's go through Peter together: Because, yes, it's about going back to our former life style, BEFORE we were saved......:

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


2 Peter 2:15 tells us that the above are persons who HAVE GONE ASTRAY.....
This means that they were on the RIGHT PATH....but then left it and went astray.

Verse 20 tells us that they had ESCAPED the defilement of the world by the KNOWLEDGE of our Savior Jesus...
and then they are AGAIN entangled in the defilements of the world.

So they were
DEFILED
saved by the knowledge of Jesus
AGAIN DEFILED

Verse 21 Clearly states that they knew the way of righteousness and turned away from it, turning their back on their experience of the holy commandment.

Verse 22 states that they RETURNED to their vomit --- their former state.


This is the clearest scripture in the NT that states plainly that a person could return to their FORMER UNSAVED STATE.

And a very strong example, I must say.

If you can deny 2 Peter 2:20-22 it means you can deny all of the NT - a very dangerous situation for anyone's soul.

 

[GodsGrace]

Except you are saying we stay saved by goods works which is unbiblical. We stay saved by Jesus alone and the good works a believer does is the result of salvation. Throughout Pauls writings He speaks of rewards for good works but not "staying saved".

What is the reward?

And could you post a couple of verses that state that Jesus will do all the work for us?
Let me put this simply:
We are saved BY FAITH......
We remain saved BY WORKS.

Father is the vinedresser.
Every branch IN JESUS that does not bear fruit...the Father will take away ---- remove ---- get rid of.

Note:

EVERY BRANCH THAT IS IN JESUS....
IN JESUS....

The branch is IN JESUS and the Father will cut it off if it does not bear fruit.

John 15:1
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

You see Ronald Nolette....
You are putting souls in danger by preaching what you do.

I'm only stating what Jesus taught.

The bible gives two explicit descriptions of people who appeared to be christian but were never believers. It is only through misunderstanding verses or reinterpreting verses that one comes to teh conclusion that a believer, one who has been born again, made a new creature, perfected FOREVER, is being made holy, sealed, justified, glorified, hidden in Jesus and already seatred in heavenly places can become un-born again and lose eternal life. If one can lose eternal life then it was never eternal to begin with.

It also says that a man can override the will of God and that Gods will is subservient to a person swill in the matter of salvation.

It also means that God would save some people only to unsave them later.

Well, the above sounds good....
but I don't see any scripture...
AND
then you should be able to easily explain John 15:1
the persons in that verse are IN CHRIST.
They are saved.....
and they might be CUT AWAY and removed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Disqualified,

Can you explain how we have to be saved by Grace, because we can not earn it by works, then can somehow bcome unquaified? How can you not earn salvation. Yet at the same time b qualified (earn) it?

Gods people obey him, They are no longer dogs. They do not act different for a time, then return to being a dog because they are a new creature created in christ, but because they wer never a new creature. They are the same old person.

I have asked a few times, Maybe you wil answer

Paul said he is confident that he who began a good work will complete it. Why are you not confident of this one thing?

Can't explain it any better EG.

My post above no. 185 explains clearly how it's possible for a person to abandon God and return to their former unsaved lifestyle.

My post no. 186 explains how God Father, the vinedresser WILL CUT OFF branches THAT ARE IN CHRIST if they do not produce fruit.

Peter explains,
Jesus explains,

I can't beat them with a better explanation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Building with wood hay and stubble is not the same thing as falling away and living in sin. We must endure to the end to be saved....that is the patience/perseverance of the saints. God's gracious promises and His ability/power are based on the assumption or condition of not falling away but enduring. Jesus said as long as we remain in Him, He will remain in us.

Perfect!
So easy to understand......
As LONG AS we remain in Jesus,
HE will REMAIN in us, and we will be saved.

IF we leave Jesus, and the NT teaches that this is possible....
we will no longer be under the protection of our Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry but that is not one leaving God.

Do you realize how foolish it sounds when you say God will never leave us but we can leave Him! Is god chained so that we can walk away from Him? Is He locked in a room? If god will never leave us- How can we leave Him???????????????????????????

He will never leave us- so if I turn right He does for He will not leave me. If I turn around and walk from where I came, He will not leave me so He walks with me!

1 Cor. 9:27 is about losing ones standing within the body- not losing ones salvation. For Paul, it would mean him losing his position as apostle but not losing his salvation.

Brother Ronald,,,,,

I can't remember if you're reformed so I'll use normal Christian language which you won't agree with if you are. Sorry about this.

When you REPENTED it means that you turned around from walking toward satan and decided to CHANGE DIRECTION and walk toward God. This is what repent means.

So....

IF you turn around AGAIN, as you state above, and walk in the other direction (your original direction) YES SIR....God will NOT be following you. You are headed back to satan and have abandoned all hope of salvation. You will be as unsaved as you were before.

I explained this to you very well in my post no. 185.
I hope you really read it.

Also, if you lose standing within the Body - whatever that means - you are NO LONGER A PART OF THE BODY.

You're going to have to post scripture because you're making some statements that are not in the NT.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

to bad your reject the call of God and reject and completely lack faith tht God wil change his people and he will not fail

Again, Paul said he is confident that God will complete the work he started.

If you do not trust God to do that. You do not trust God at all

In John 15 Jesus said those that do not abide in Him baring fruit will be cut off and thrown in to the fire.

It's really sad that some "christians" reject the clear teachings of Jesus.

You've been informed... sadly you have been deceived by a different gospel and a different jesus that what we see in God's Word.

 

[Scott Downey]

In John 15 Jesus said those that do not abide in Him baring fruit will be cut off and thrown in to the fire.

It's really sad that some "christians" reject the clear teachings of Jesus.

You've been informed... sadly you have been deceived by a different gospel and a different jesus that what we see in God's Word.

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

God through Christ created all men, saved and unsaved. All men and all things have their branch or origin in Christ.
People don't make themselves and the devil certainly is not a creator god.

I read this as referring to the entire human race, Christ being the savior of all mankind, not that all men are saved.

Christ is the root of the tree, or here vine of all men. Hey, we are made in the image of God.

The purpose of the vine is to bear good fruit to God.
When parts of the vine don't do that, God being the vine dresser makes certain they are cut off. This helps the entire vine.
Get rid of parasitical drag...

When someone is cut off, they are going to the fire.

Christ ordains His people will bear good fruit.

Like it says here Matthew 7 and 12 of salvation.
The tree is people, and God makes the tree a good tree or a bad tree, a clear division is evident with no uncertainty.
There is no mix of bad and good on the same tree, it is either all good, or all bad.
And ask yourself what does God save? Our spirits, not our flesh, so we are given new spirits, we are the good tree, which are saved. Someday we will also be resurrected with new bodies, but the old man, and old creation makes way for the new creation, new earth, new heavens. The old one is destroyed as it is fallen and corrupted.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits​

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Matthew 12:33

A Tree Known by Its Fruit​

“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.

Matthew 7

The Narrow Way​

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 [c]Because narrow is the gate and [d]difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

​

 

[mailmandan]

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

 

[mailmandan]

That's not what God's Word says homie!

Galatians 6:7,8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Only believers sow to the Spirit and from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[Lizbeth]

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

God through Christ created all men, saved and unsaved. All men and all things have their branch or origin in Christ.
People don't make themselves and the devil certainly is not a creator god.

I read this as referring to the entire human race, Christ being the savior of all mankind, not that all men are saved.

Christ is the root of the tree, or here vine of all men. Hey, we are made in the image of God.

The purpose of the vine is to bear good fruit to God.
When parts of the vine don't do that, God being the vine dresser makes certain they are cut off. This helps the entire vine.
Get rid of parasitical drag...

When someone is cut off, they are going to the fire.

Christ ordains His people will bear good fruit.

Like it says here Matthew 7 and 12 of salvation.
The tree is people, and God makes the tree a good tree or a bad tree, a clear division is evident with no uncertainty.
There is no mix of bad and good on the same tree, it is either all good, or all bad.
And ask yourself what does God save? Our spirits, not our flesh, so we are given new spirits, we are the good tree, which are saved. Someday we will also be resurrected with new bodies, but the old man, and old creation makes way for the new creation, new earth, new heavens. The old one is destroyed as it is fallen and corrupted.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits​

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Matthew 12:33

A Tree Known by Its Fruit​

“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.

Matthew 7

The Narrow Way​

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 [c]Because narrow is the gate and [d]difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

​

Sin separated everyone from the Creator though didn't it? Everyone needs to be grafted back into the Tree/vine in order to be able to abide there, if they will.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed on this.
But you state that you are being saved till the day you die.
The problem, as I see it, is that you believe one cannot fall away from the faith....
after many verses I've posted stating the opposite.

No, Actually God said I am saved until the day I am resurrected. I am just repeating what the word says

3 Times Paul said I am sealed with the spirit UNTIL the day of redemption.

Jesus said I will never perish (spiritually) and I have (present tense) eternal life
Jesus said I will never die, I will live forever. And I will be resurrected. There is no maybe in his words. there are not conditions in his words. He said once I do this (have faith) these things are mine, as paul said, I have every spiritual blessing under heaven, they are mine.. Not based on what I did.l Based on What God did

And you show me many verses. but they do not support your claim you can lose salvation.

When we become saved we do not lose our free will.

Never said we did.

We still have free will to walk away from God.

But will we.

Again, I do not how much more I can tell you that a person who has truly been born again, Have truly experienced personally his love. Who truly has repented. would never freely walk away. And those who do. as John said, they were never of us.

Its like you were in a pot of boiling water. roasting and headed for death. Someone comes and saves you from that death, and you agree to let them save you and trust them. then decide you want to go back to that boiling water because you really were not dying..

Israel wanted to go back to Egypt. because they never trusted God. they complained, they would not do what God told them to do. So God swore, they would never enter his rest.

I have entered his rest. I am no longer working to maintain my salvation or to try to be saved. I have understood nothing I could do could save me or keep me saved.

Matthew 24:10-13
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

This is talking about THAT TIME,

What is THAT TIME? it is the tribulation period or the last days.. Jesus is telling those living in that time to endure to the end. if they do. they will be PHYSICALLY saved and enter the kingdom with him.

This is not eternal salvation. and unless you are living in that day, is not directed to you or me

No matter the circumstances, we must endure till the end.

You can't Why do you not see that in saying this, You are saying you must WORK to be saved?

Because this is exactly what your saying, Your salvation is dependent on YOUR ABILITY or YOUR POWER to endure..

Jesus paid for the SIN OF THE WORLD.
He bought us back from satan.
We were ransomed and He saved us.

Yes, He saved me

Salvation is a free gift...but we must guard that free gift.

then its not free.

Paul was thoughtful of the fact that even HE could lose this gift:
1 Corinthians 9:27
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

From being an apostle. Not from being saved.

No one is qualified to be saved, only one person met the requirements His name is Jesus

The bible doesn't say God will be weighing the fruit....
Jesus only states that we must produce fruit.
Jesus says this....not me.

His children WILL produce fruit.

Why you can not understand this is beyond my own comprehension. Does God change people or not?

Jesus said that His Father is the Vine Keeper.
He will prune away the branches that do not yield fruit.
John 15:1

Yes he will. He has been pruning me for 40 years now.. I praise him for it.

No. What will lead many astray is giving the impression that we are saved NO MATTER WHAT and that God demands nothing of us because Jesus has already done it all.

Lead people away.

what leads people away ios people thinking they have to earn a gift. because if God is truly working on them, they will realize they can not meet the standard and give up. I have known many who do this.

'Thats why legalism is so dangerous. Not only does it lead people to hell. but when the thinking gets into a child of Gods mind, it can take him or her out.

The NT does not teach this.

Colossians 1:10
So as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

This is not to keep your salvation.. This is to walk with God. I pray we all do this

John 15:8
By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

Yes. that is what we are commanded to do. to bear fruit. and be counted worthy to serve God.

Not to be saved..

You can not save yourself. once again,

To many people want to say justification is dependent on sanctification. This is an extreme error. and will just lead people down the wrong path. they will continually look to self. not God (even if they deny it) and will not become poor in spirit.. They are too busy trying to earn it.

Point people to Christ, stop pointing them to self. Self will get you no where

Now, we might bear fruit out of fear or out of love,
but the fact remains that the NT teaches that we MUST bear good fruit.

We will

I am sad you do not think God will change his people. and he will fail them.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Can't explain it any better EG.

Then I can not come close to seeing it your way

Because you can't explain it, Its a contradiction in itself..

My post above no. 185 explains clearly how it's possible for a person to abandon God and return to their former unsaved lifestyle.

Even Though the apostle John says its impossible.

I think i will trust John.

My post no. 186 explains how God Father, the vinedresser WILL CUT OFF branches THAT ARE IN CHRIST if they do not produce fruit.

lol. Producing fruit, not earning salvation.

Peter explains,
Jesus explains,

I can't beat them with a better explanation.

You have not beat them at all. on the other hand You cause them to contradict themselves and each other, including Paul

God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Perfect!
So easy to understand......
As LONG AS we remain in Jesus,
HE will REMAIN in us, and we will be saved.

IF we leave Jesus, and the NT teaches that this is possible....
we will no longer be under the protection of our Lord.

So it is all About you

Not about God..

yes, if we remain in him, we will produce fruit

But we will never be good enough to earn salvation no matter how much fruit we produce.

producing fruit is not the payment for your sin, Jesus took that on his body on the cross..

Again, Look to Jesus, stop looking to self.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In John 15 Jesus said those that do not abide in Him baring fruit will be cut off and thrown in to the fire.

It's really sad that some "christians" reject the clear teachings of Jesus.

You've been informed... sadly you have been deceived by a different gospel and a different jesus that what we see in God's Word.

THATS ABOUT PRODUCING FRUIT. NOT ABOUT KEEPIONG YOURSELF SAVED

Its sad that people can read the word. and can not repent, thinking they have something in themselves to offer God in payment for their sins.

But hey, Thanks for proving my point, You do NOT have confidence that he who began a good work in you WILL complete it till the day of Christ.

Would you liike to have that confidence? Really, I am not joking.

If you want it. Look to God. stop looking to self. which is what you are doing, while attacking peo9ple who look to God. Shame on you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sin separated everyone from the Creator though didn't it? Everyone needs to be grafted back into the Tree/vine in order to be able to abide there, if they will.

So how many times can you get cut off. grafted back on, then cut off again?

 

[Lizbeth]

So how many times can you get cut off. grafted back on, then cut off again?

I'm talking about unbelievers with that brother.

As for believers a three fold cord is not "easily" broken, but we are warned that it can happen. One inadvertent sin is not likely to result in being cut off the tree/vine, though even then we need to keep short accounts with the Lord.........but a slide back down into a willful lifestyle of sin can, unless one repents of it. Sin hardens the heart....we need to take it seriously and think of it as being like spiritual cancer. Deal with it long before it becomes an advanced stage.