BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
The Anti-Calvanists here don't know what Calvinism entails. And I don't believe it is because they are Arminian.
They're anti-Gospel too.
Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved
- Thread starter Arthur81
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
They're anti-Gospel too.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I think it is on both sides.
That was my point.
Its odd I get called an arminian from a devout calvinist such as from Christian soldier and get called a calvinist by people like face to face and phonyman
Thats why I hate the debates. And try to get away from key words like election or osas. Because they are trip words that people look for and think they gotcha!!
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
They bait Christians using those keywords in thread titles.They lie to get Christians to respond. Some of us think we can reach those who are in innocently mistaken.
While those names who have Trolled for years are obvious. Not only are they unreachable,as God wills , they enjoy blaspheming God.
Christian don't use the Bible as bait.
Runningman
Active Member
Judas was not one of the non believers Jesus was referring to, but the one who would betray him.
The non-believers left Jesus, Judas didn't.
John 6
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
The resurrection is the eternal life gifting event. If only people who are accounted worthy to be resurrected from the "dead" cannot die then why do they need to be resurrected if they are already can't die? What do you think happens to a Christian after they die?
Luke 20
35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Because he wanted to be with the Lord.
The eternal security doctrine is not compatible with this. That's my point.
Who ever said one could never do it? The rich young man said he did it and Jesus didn't correct him in Matthew 19:16-18. The kicker is Jesus answered in the affirmative that keeping the commandments was a requirement to have eternal life there. He didn't mention anything about just believing because just believing alone is not the idea.
Christians are under God's law. Not the Law of Moses, but the 10 Commandments. All of the 10 Commandments are given in the New Testament.
How is it unmerited favor if someone had to die to merit that favor and why did Paul say there is something the Galatians could do to fall from the unmerited favor in Galatians 5:4?
It's faith in God and what He said to do. Faith and works always go together. Consider 2 Peter 2:4-6 where the angels that sinned were being held for judgement. They're being mentioned here both as an example and warning for those who are ungodly which includes those who call themselves "Christian elect."
Sure, how about Judas?
Matthew 19:16-19 he was told to keep the commandments if he wants to enter life. The workers of iniquity (those who break God's laws) will be told to depart at their judgement in Matthew 7:23.
That's rich. Where do you think they're going when Jesus tells them to depart from them? The lonely corner of heaven?
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
"Christians are under God's law. Not the Law of Moses, but the 10 Commandments. All of the 10 Commandments are given in the New Testament."
You observe the Sabbath and keep it holy?
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Enjoy trying to keep the law... nothing in the New Testament concerning any day being the sabbath.
The command to keep Saturday sabbath was given to Israel, not to the Body of Christ.
Law keeping does not end well...
Runningman
Active Member
Sure. You just remember the Sabbath and keep it holy... something you should be doing every day anyway. There aren't any work restrictions attached to it in the New Covenant because doing good on the Sabbath is lawful. In order words don't sin... something we should not be doing every day already.
Do you have an issue with keeping God's 10 Commandments?
EG
Don't get the two conversations mixed up.
I don't know that I HATE anything.
OSAS does not exist in the NT teachings.
I've given you a few verses but you don't reply to them.
You send me back verses instead.
How about explaining (exegeting) the verses I give you like I do to yours?
I posted Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,
Please notice the IF in the above verses.
How do you explain the IF??
IF we CONTINUE in the faith .....
IF is conditinal....it means it's possible to NOT CONTNUE in the faith.
If FAITH SAVES,,,,then what happens IF we do NOT continue in the faith?
Your verses:
John 3. 10 - 18 Never perish but has eternal life
Whoever BELIEVES in Jesus will have eternal life.
BELIEVES.....not believed. We must continue to believe in Him....
Colossians 1:23 states that it's possible to abandon Him.
John 3: 35-36 the believer HAS eternal life. the non believer has the wrath of God
Check John 3:36 Whoever BELIEVES in the Son has eternal life.
Again, it's present tense. We must CONTINUE to believe.
John 4. Living water flowing to eternal life
Whoever drinks of Jesus' water will never thirst again.
Are those who abandon God drinking the water of Jesus?
No.
The problem here is that you don't believe it's possible for a person to abandon God.
Then why all the verses that state one could?
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away,
What did the Jews FALL AWAY from ?
2 Peter 2:21
21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
What are the above TURNING BACK from??
John 5 - Whoever sees and believes has eternal life and shall not come into judgment. but has passed from death to life
Again, present tense.
John 6. The food which endures forever. whoever comes will never hunger or thirst. whoever believes will never die, live forever. and be raised on the last day.
Present tense.
Now please reply to my verses.
Thanks.
Last edited:
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yes
Who moves away from the gospel? Paul warned the jew about moving back to law. He warned other people to not move away.
Why do people move away from something?
Is it because they had true faith in that something? and changed their mind?
Is it because The person they trusted let them down, He was proven to be untrustworthy?
or is it because they really did not have true faith to begin with?
the first two in my view go hand in hand, The only way you would change you mind is if the person you trust became untrustworthy, Now I know trust in humans can turn bad. Humans change, and they also are very untrustworthy. Thats why people get married then a few years later want out of the marraige, Because either you really did not love that person to begin with, Or they were not who you thought they were.
But we are talking about God here, Is God untrustworthy? Is his promise untrustworthy? is his love untrustworthy?
I think John said it best, they went out from us, but they were NEVER of us, for if they were of us THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE LEFT. but they left to expose the fact they truly were never of us.
I do not believe people lose salvation. I think they never had it.
Now I can not judge anyone, if I saw someone that I knew as a believer out doing things they should not be doing, because they walked away from the church (I did that for 5 year as a prodigal child) could I say they were never saved as some do? No. Could I say they lost salvation as some do? No.
I never lost faith in God. I lost faith in the church and people and in my depression looked for things to help me (which they never did) but God chastened me and brought me back by taking me to my knees. and I praise him for that
But when God says we will never die. When he says we have eternal life. When he says he will raise us on the last day. When he says we have passed from death to Life, When God says he has given us the spirit as a pledge until the day of redemption. When Paul says he is confident that he who began a good work (God) will complete it until the day of CHrist, When God makes this promise, that he will NEVER leave us nor forsake us (we cannot go anywhere God is not there)
then my hope and faith is in those promises. As Paul says, I have the hope of eternal life, which God, who can not lie, promised before time began.
Yu say OSAS is not found in scripture. I agree, you will not find those words or that acronym anywhere. But You will not find anywhere in the word that someone who has been born again, adopted as Gods child. and given eternal life, has ever or will ever lose salvation. Its just not there.
Thats why I give you those verses. Because the bible can not say one things in one place (the verses I give) then say the opposite or contradict itself in others (some of the verses you give me) we must resolve the apparent contradiction. and Adjust our belief system to the interpretation where ALL the verses are in agreement, and there is no contradiction
Praise God for his love and mercy, I am eternally grateful for the massive gift he gave to me,, a gift I can not earn, I can not fathom, and I can not at times understand, why he would save a wretched soul like myself
God did His part.
Are we not to do ours?
Hebrews 13:16
16Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Luke 9:23
23And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
Could you explain what the above verses mean?
Matthew and Luke are statements JESUS made.
As must be obvious by now....
I don't agree with the T in TULIP.
The NT states that one could forfeit their salvation.
Nor do I agree with any part of TULIP.
Hi Ronald,
Scripture never conflicts.
John 10:28
To whom does God give eternal life?
It's answered in John 10:27
TO MY SHEEP.
And who are God's sheep?
John 3:16 WHOESOEVER believes in the Son will be saved.
Whosoever believes belongs to the flock of Jesus and will hear His voice.
And yes, no one will pluck us out of the hand of God....
But we can walk away on our own....
2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
Peter, an Apostle of Jesus, teaches that it is possible to return to the entanglement of the world and be overcome.
He teaches that it is possible to turn away.
This does NOT agree with Perseverance of the Saints.
God extends His grace to all. Because He loves the whole world....John 3:16
He who believes and accepts God's salvation will be give to Jesus because HE is the Savior.
Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Because in God there is no partiality:
Romans 2:11
11For there is no partiality with God.
And God would want that all be saved....,but all will not accept His gift.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I'm not sure why you've posted the above veses.
Of course if WE BELIEVE in Jesus we will have eternal life.
What does this have to do with perseverance of the saints?
Do you believe God forces us to believe with irrisistable grace?
Could you post some verses stating this?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I see you added to this post. So I will continue
I disagree with your Interpretation of COl 1: 23. If paul said what you said, then we do not have eternal life. Jesus said we will never perish. Jesus did not say we will never perish as long as we do something, or we have eternal life and place a condition on it. So when I read John 3 and Col 1 there is an apparent contradiction. I must resolve it.. which I have,, People who have true saving faith continue, they may fall nto sin, They may become prodigal children, But they will not become a non believer.
Also notice in John 3, It says he who does not believe is condemned already. if your already in a state of condemnation, You never came out of it.. thus you did not fall back into it..
It does not say we must continue to believe, Thats a false narrative, it does not say he who believes has eternal life as long as he continues to believe (and if this was the case. then they do not really have eternal life. they have conditional life)
1. Does it say they need to keep drinking?
Jesus did not say drink this for the rest of your life. He says whoever drinks.. its a one time event
Abandon God? Who abandons God? Where can we go that we can hide from God and he is not there wherever we are?
Nom I do not believe God, who said he will never abandon us, will abandon us even if we walk away as prodigal children
And I do not believe a person who walks away and is now against christ (a non believer) was ever of us, for if they were of us, as John said they never would have left.
Read the entire passage and do nto stop in the middle of a verse.
It says it is impossible. What is impossible.
"if they fall away, to renew them to repentance"
It does not say they fell away, it says IF they fall away (if it were possible) they could never get saved again, they would be lost forever. The law says you can fall away, so you have to return to sacrifice and burnt offering, which the author said can never take away sin. The author is telling these jews thinking of going back to law. why? If you go back and you fall away, There is no hope. you will never come back (and its true, I know many who left the church and have never come back and I know many who left legalism, then returned, and will not even think of coming back to grace.. You go to where your true heart lies. where you faith really is, You may try new things out, but yu will always go where your heart is, Like a dog, Unless you are changed, you will always be a dog. and return to your vomit
Peter say they Knew the way to righteousness, He did nto say they recieved and entrusted this way.
I agree with peter. If you have the truth in your hands, and wakk away before you make it yours. Then it would be better off if you never knew it, Now you have to spend eternity kicking yourself because you had it in your hands and you let it go.
The gospel. they are returning to what they truly have faith in, in one group the law. in the other (I would have to get context, but probably the world)
Shall not come to judgment, and has passed from death to life..
try not to focus on the word believe, and focus on what it says they will get, It does not say they will only get it if they continue to believe..
So I can eat this bread from heaven today, This food which will endure forever. But I can still even after I eat it, die? or do I have to keep eating it? If so. why is it called the food that endures forever. which I can eat and not die, unlike the manna, where they ate every day, and yet they still died.
Don;t focus on the word present tense. He is saying if you read this, and you ate this food. you have Gods promise you will recieve all those things..
DON:T keep eating food which perishes.. but food which will endure to eternal life.. Like the water in John 4 you do not keep drinking and eating,, That is the point Jesus was making
I did..
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
What we are reading certain members saying here when they post in threads,excise Scripture to argue their point, is simple.
A group of people here insist the Gospel is a lie.
I give them eternal life.
What is eternal life? Eternal Irrevocable Salvation, Saving,from eternal death.
They call Paul's teaching a lie too.
And God as well. He who said we are Saved by His grace, free grace, not of our own choice,doing. And that free grace filled gift is eternal, irrevocable.
They,the one with many names or the many named, are arguing Humanism. Not the Gospel.
No one who reads the New Testament could ever arrive at the conclusion that the gift of Eternal Salvation is a license to Sin.
It's unintelligent.
Yeshua/Jesus came to preach Eternal Salvation from Sin. Died so to insure those whom He calls to Him then have license to Sin.
That's what we're encountering here. That argument.
And you know why?
Because they're Satanists.
That's why.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
And here you go
What could you or I possibly do to get God to forgive one sin, and let us into Heaven
Did Jesus said :it is finished" or did he say, i did my part. now you do yours?
Anytime we look to self. We should be afraid.
Amen, Part of the sanctification process is producing fruit. we produce fruit when we sacrifice our needs for the needs of others
Once again, Try not to cut off a passage before you end, Remember, the bible was not written in verse form.
lets look at the whole of what Jesus said
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
first notice here, are these things not the will of God? Are these things not doing good deeds?
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Notice here
1. He never knew them (they were never saved)
2. Even though they did these things, He said the practiced sin..
They failed to recieve the gospel. as I see it, these people thought these good deeds are what saved them, it was them doing THERE PART, and that is why they tell Jesus of all these works.
Me? I will be on my face, I will not brag of all my works, Jesus knows what they are I do not need to tell him, I will tell him the truth, I am unworthy
Yes, If we want to follow in Jesus footsteps. this is what we must do
But that snot how we get saved, we can deny ourselves all we want, we will still be lost, dead in sin
Yes, I hope you now understand the way I see them
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I do not agree with the T - I believe we are totally in sin, and unable to stop sinning, but we have free will
I do not agree with the U - God will not force us to believe, we must recieve it (and no, it is not works to trust totally in someone else to do all the work_
I do not agree with the L - Gods atonment is worldwide, he made propitiation not for just mine, but for the whole world
And I think the P is them saying we persevere till the end, we do not persevere, God keeps us, We can not keep ourself.
But I am not arminian either.. I am not even sure which belief came first, but it is obvious the second 5 steps are a direct counter to the other. so I stay away from those arguments as much as I can, I want to know what you believed, I already know what They believed.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
for we have been saved (a completed action) by Grace through faithWhat we are reading certain members saying here when they post in threads,excise Scripture to argue their point, is simple.
A group of people here insist the Gospel is a lie.
I give them eternal life.
What is eternal life? Eternal Irrevocable Salvation, Saving,from eternal death.
They call Paul's teaching a lie too.
And God as well. He who said we are Saved by His grace, free grace, not of our own choice,doing. And that free grace filled gift is eternal, irrevocable.
They,the one with many names or the many named, are arguing Humanism. Not the Gospel.
No one who reads the New Testament could ever arrive at the conclusion that the gift of Eternal Salvation is a license to Sin.
It's unintelligent.
Yeshua/Jesus came to preach Eternal Salvation from Sin. Died so to insure those whom He calls to Him then have license to Sin.
That's what we're encountering here. That argument.
And you know why?
Because they're Satanists.
That's why.
You can not remove faith from the equation
and you can not twist it and say this faith we are saved through is our own faith, Because it is not faith in ourselves. it is who our faith is in that saves us,
We were discussing Galatians 6:9 and how it relates to the possibility of the forfeiture of our salvation.
6:9
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
I can agree with your agricultural example.
IF the farmer puts in the work....he will reap a good harvest.
If not, the crop will die.
So, you're exactly confirming the previous post of mine.
Galatians states that we will reap, IF WE DO NOT GROW WEARY.
This means that it's POSSIBLE TO GROW WEARY.
IF we grow weary we will not reap.
This disproves the idea that salvation cannot be lost.
It can be lost because, under certain circumstances, WE WILL NOT REAP.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
This is talking about rewards. Salvation is not a reward. You can’t reap salvation
And I agree 100%. If we grow weary our reward will be burnt as wood hay and straw
Similar threads
