Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved

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GodsGrace

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I don't know how you can be responsible for all your actions, but you are. Therein lies part of the mystery. The horrible sins that humans commit are all their fault, but God PERMITS them, doesn't cause them in order to bring good out of them for his people. Since he doesn't cause sin, he's not responsible of it. Yes, I graduated from Calvin University and Seminary, where I got a very solid Reformed education. Trust me, my comments reflect biblical and Reformed teachings.
Plenty of reformed theologians.

But PERMITS is different than PREDESTINATING

Permits is passive and allows the person to do what he will.
PREDESTINATES is active and put the onus on God.

If God predestinates someone to steal....
how is that person responsible?

I know that it's a mystery - I've heard this many times....
but I don't believe God wants us to be ignorant of His laws.

If we steal of our own free will, a just God can punish us.
If we steal because God predestinated us to steal...then a just God cannot hold us responsible.

And, if God predestinates everything, He is certainly responsible for sin.
Since God cannot sin...
Voila,,,,something is wrong with this theology.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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No, God saves, while humans are responsible to accept and trust in Jesus' death and resurrection to save them.
But if it only happens because God made them alive, it’s not them, it is God.
Yes, there's a mystery that our minds can't solve about how the two truths work together. We can't reason everything out, because as God says in Isaiah 55.

Isa 55:6 “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;
Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

These verses summarize the two truths well.
If you are unable to seek God unless God makes you alive, those passages ar prety much meaningless
 
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Bruce-Leiter

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Plenty of reformed theologians.

But PERMITS is different than PREDESTINATING

Permits is passive and allows the person to do what he will.
PREDESTINATES is active and put the onus on God.

If God predestinates someone to steal....
how is that person responsible?

I know that it's a mystery - I've heard this many times....
but I don't believe God wants us to be ignorant of His laws.

If we steal of our own free will, a just God can punish us.
If we steal because God predestinated us to steal...then a just God cannot hold us responsible.

And, if God predestinates everything, He is certainly responsible for sin.
Since God cannot sin...
Voila,,,,something is wrong with this theology.
He has two kinds of will, permissive and causal will. Where in Scripture do you find that God predestined or caused any sin? Some OT verses seem to point that way, but the OT often leaves out the intermediate, direct causes of actions. His permissive will allows humans to do what they want to, but he uses those actions for the good of his own believers. You admit that it's a mystery, so why don't you allow God to be God, who permits evil without being responsible for it and who causes all good things to happen?
 
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GodsGrace

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He has two kinds of will, permissive and causal will. Where in Scripture do you find that God predestined or caused any sin? Some OT verses seem to point that way, but the OT often leaves out the intermediate, direct causes of actions. His permissive will allows humans to do what they want to, but he uses those actions for the good of his own believers. You admit that it's a mystery, so why don't you allow God to be God, who permits evil without being responsible for it and who causes all good things to happen?
Bruce, you're going to have to be intellectually honest here, I don't have much time for being on the forum.

Did I say there are verses that state that God causes sin?
NO!!
Definetly not me...
It is the reformed and calvinist theology that believes in theology that makes God be the cause of sin.

I already explained to you the difference between permitting something to happen and causing it to happen.
since you must be a pastor, I'm not going to explain that again.

So, do you not agree that God predestinates EVERYTHING that is to happen?
Do you not agree that God is the causal agent for everything that is caused?

What confession do you use?
The Westminster Confession
Chapter 3
1. FROM BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME, GOD HAS DECIDED AND PUT INTO PLACE EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS.

It goes on to state, in the very next sentence, that this does not make God the creator of sin.

What?
Could you reconcile the above?
 
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PGS11

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Every time you sin it ends up on the back of our Lord if you believe what kind of respect for him is that you must always try to over come sin in your life with this in mind..Those people are only looking for a free pass and they will not get it because they do not respect him..
There are plenty of parables told by Jesus himself that shows you can lose your salvation or do you think he was just kidding.

A person like that is called a luke warm person and Jesus says i spit you out in revelations.A cold person can be saved a hot person is saved and nothing can be done for a luke warm person so he spits you out.
 
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Bruce-Leiter

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Bruce, you're going to have to be intellectually honest here, I don't have much time for being on the forum.

Did I say there are verses that state that God causes sin?
NO!!
Definetly not me...
It is the reformed and calvinist theology that believes in theology that makes God be the cause of sin.

I already explained to you the difference between permitting something to happen and causing it to happen.
since you must be a pastor, I'm not going to explain that again.

So, do you not agree that God predestinates EVERYTHING that is to happen?
Do you not agree that God is the causal agent for everything that is caused?

What confession do you use?
The Westminster Confession
Chapter 3
1. FROM BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME, GOD HAS DECIDED AND PUT INTO PLACE EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS.

It goes on to state, in the very next sentence, that this does not make God the creator of sin.

What?
Could you reconcile the above?
The catechisms, both Heidelberg and Westminster, accurately convey the two biblical truths. God plans everything including sin but doesn't cause it. Satan and all humans do. My intellectual honesty starts and ends with Scripture. The ways God's and humans' will interact is mysterious, and intellectual honesty makes me humble my reason before God and stop trying to figure everything out. Genesis 50:19,20 and Isaiah 55:7-9 state it very clearly:

Gen 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I wish you God's blessings!
 

GodsGrace

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The catechisms, both Heidelberg and Westminster, accurately convey the two biblical truths.
How can there be two biblical truths?
There can only be one truth.

Either God predestinated EVERYTHING including sin,
As some reformed do accept....
JOHN PIPER, DOUGLAS WILSON

or

God did NOT predestinate everything.

I asked how you would reconcile the two "truths"...
you haven't done that because it could not be done.

God plans everything including sin but doesn't cause it.

No. The above is not what reformed theology teaches.
God did not only plan sin....
which is rather horrifying in itself - to think that God would puposefully plan sin for we humans....

reformed theology teaches that God PREDESTINATED EVERYTHING...
Everything includes sinful acts...not just sin (which would be bad enough).

Can't have it both ways...
There can only be one truth.

Satan and all humans do. My intellectual honesty starts and ends with Scripture. The ways God's and humans' will interact is mysterious, and intellectual honesty makes me humble my reason before God and stop trying to figure everything out. Genesis 50:19,20 and Isaiah 55:7-9 state it very clearly:

Gen 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I wish you God's blessings!
Evil is certainly a mystery and big problem for Christianity.
Theodicy will never be understood by man and is a huge proplem.

The answer is not to believe that God CREATED sin/evil.
This would make God not worthy to be worshipped.
You don't admire a man that kicks his dog on a regular basis.

Let's look at your verses:
Genesis 50:20 Man meant if for evil, but God meant it for good.

This only shows that God can take any situation and work it to His liking.
It does not mean that man has no free will, but that God can use that free will to work things to His will.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his ways? Really. You want to use this verse?
Forsaking something requires an action ON OUR PART.
Why would God ask us to forsake something IF it's UP TO HIM to decree whether or not we forsake our ways?
BTW, the bible is replete with instructions of this type....instructions that prove we have free will.

verses 55:8 and 9
No problem for me.
We will never FULLY understand God.

But we can understand Him as far as He has revealed Himself.
And He has revealed Himself thus:

HE IS LOVING.
HE IS MERCIFUL.
HE IS JUST.

Plenty of verses if you really need them.
 
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PGS11

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Did God intentionally cause the fall of humanity which puts us in a fallen state?The faith tells us it was a revolt in heaven over humanity receiving eternal life God had decided at the beginning humanity would receive eternal life.A group of angels led by Satan revolted over us receiving eternal life. Satan caused the fall of humanity to prevent us from ever obtaining heaven and union with God.Jesus came and changed that ensuring Gods plan of Eternal life for humanity the will of the Father.So how does that all fall into predestination and free will.
 

Arthur81

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OSAS doesn't mean that at all, dear brother! Ephesians 2:8-10:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It's not by works we are saved, but for God-given works, which are all to his glory and not to ours. If persons distort OSAS the way you say, they are falling into fatalism, not Calvinism..

The Reformed faith, as to perseverance of the saints, is based on the Bible, clear and explicit statements in God's word. I do not know where people get the idea that the Reformed or the Particular Baptists are quoting Calvin instead of the Bible. Calvin may be called 'a first thinker' as he wrote his commentary and his theology, Institutes of the Christian Religion. Over the centuries, his theology was refined and, in some cases, totally disagreed with among the Reformed and the Particular Baptists. I speak in generalities there.

Bruce, you wrote the following:
"Perseverance of the saints means that those that God has chosen (which I don't agree with BTW) will necessarily persevere until the end of their life. I could debunk this using Calvin's words in one minute"

John Calvin on John 10:30 wrote:
"I and my Father are one. He intended to meet the jeers of the wicked; for they might allege that the power of God did not at all belong to him, so that he could promise to his disciples that it would assuredly protect them. He therefore testifies that his affairs are so closely united to those of the Father, that the Father’s assistance will never be withheld from himself and his sheep The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is (ὁμοούσιος) of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father, so that whatever is done by Christ will be confirmed by the power of his Father."

I do not think you'll find very many among the Lutherans, Reformed and Particular Baptists agreeing with Calvin here in John 10:30.
 

Bruce-Leiter

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How can there be two biblical truths?
There can only be one truth.

Either God predestinated EVERYTHING including sin,
As some reformed do accept....
JOHN PIPER, DOUGLAS WILSON

or

God did NOT predestinate everything.

I asked how you would reconcile the two "truths"...
you haven't done that because it could not be done.



No. The above is not what reformed theology teaches.
God did not only plan sin....
which is rather horrifying in itself - to think that God would puposefully plan sin for we humans....

reformed theology teaches that God PREDESTINATED EVERYTHING...
Everything includes sinful acts...not just sin (which would be bad enough).

Can't have it both ways...
There can only be one truth.


Evil is certainly a mystery and big problem for Christianity.
Theodicy will never be understood by man and is a huge proplem.

The answer is not to believe that God CREATED sin/evil.
This would make God not worthy to be worshipped.
You don't admire a man that kicks his dog on a regular basis.

Let's look at your verses:
Genesis 50:20 Man meant if for evil, but God meant it for good.

This only shows that God can take any situation and work it to His liking.
It does not mean that man has no free will, but that God can use that free will to work things to His will.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his ways? Really. You want to use this verse?
Forsaking something requires an action ON OUR PART.
Why would God ask us to forsake something IF it's UP TO HIM to decree whether or not we forsake our ways?
BTW, the bible is replete with instructions of this type....instructions that prove we have free will.

verses 55:8 and 9
No problem for me.
We will never FULLY understand God.

But we can understand Him as far as He has revealed Himself.
And He has revealed Himself thus:

HE IS LOVING.
HE IS MERCIFUL.
HE IS JUST.

Plenty of verses if you really need them.
Evil is NOT a problem for Christianity but for evil humans. No matter how you cut it, God includes in his plans permitting evil without being responsible for it, and humans are fully responsible for it. The Bible teaches both.
 

GodsGrace

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Evil is NOT a problem for Christianity but for evil humans. No matter how you cut it, God includes in his plans permitting evil without being responsible for it, and humans are fully responsible for it. The Bible teaches both.
I agree with the above.
But you're stating orthodox christianity....not reformed christianity.

However Bruce, we all agree that theodicy is THE number one problem for Christianity to address.
Of course, the reformed have solved the problem by stating that God causes evil.
I say causes, because it's not rational to say that God predestinates everything but then say that God is not responsible for our evil but that we personally are. I think God is a rational God.

But this demolishes one of the premises:
1. God is all good. (He can't be all good if He created evil).
2. God is all powerful.
 

Bruce-Leiter

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I agree with the above.
But you're stating orthodox christianity....not reformed christianity.

However Bruce, we all agree that theodicy is THE number one problem for Christianity to address.
Of course, the reformed have solved the problem by stating that God causes evil.
I say causes, because it's not rational to say that God predestinates everything but then say that God is not responsible for our evil but that we personally are. I think God is a rational God.

But this demolishes one of the premises:
1. God is all good. (He can't be all good if He created evil).
2. God is all powerful.
Respectfully, your statement that "it's not rational" sets your reason up as the arbiter of what is acceptable. I prefer to take it without my reason deciding the truth but letting the Scriptures teach me, even though a lot of it is a mystery. Just because you think the Reformed faith has said this or that doesn't make it necessarily so.

In fact, the Reformed faith that I learned, taught, and preached DOES NOT say that God causes evil. He ALLOWS it to exist, a very different proposition that absolves him of responsibility for it. God is a rational God, but his reasoning is far beyond our abilities to think. I accept his reasoning and don't depend on my own. Otherwise, I would be placing myself as an equal to God, which is the original sin of Adam and Eve.

Satan and humans have caused evil and sin and are fully responsible for it, while God is not. He permits it but is not responsible for it. Both are taught in Scripture, so the Reformed faith accepts both.
 

GodsGrace

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Respectfully, your statement that "it's not rational" sets your reason up as the arbiter of what is acceptable. I prefer to take it without my reason deciding the truth but letting the Scriptures teach me, even though a lot of it is a mystery. Just because you think the Reformed faith has said this or that doesn't make it necessarily so.

In fact, the Reformed faith that I learned, taught, and preached DOES NOT say that God causes evil. He ALLOWS it to exist, a very different proposition that absolves him of responsibility for it. God is a rational God, but his reasoning is far beyond our abilities to think. I accept his reasoning and don't depend on my own. Otherwise, I would be placing myself as an equal to God, which is the original sin of Adam and Eve.

Satan and humans have caused evil and sin and are fully responsible for it, while God is not. He permits it but is not responsible for it. Both are taught in Scripture, so the Reformed faith accepts both.
Your last paragraph is acceptable to all Christians.
So what's the difference with the reformed faith?

Do you believe, as John Piper does, that God predestinated even the dust particles that fly in the air?
(his words).

It sounds like you don't.
All Christians believe God ALLOWS evil...
we're starting to go around in circles...

so what's the difference between you - who claims to be reformed....
and me - who claims to be traditional?

Let's look at Proverbs 6:16-19
16There are six things which the LORD hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:

17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,

18A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,

19A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.


The very next line says to observe the laws of our father....

Two questions:

1. Why would God hate what HE has created/decreed/predestinated?
2. Why are we exhorted to obey commandments when it's God that has decreed/predestinated our every action?

It's not a question of my not being able to accept some things and you being able to accept them....
What I'm saying is that what you accept about God is not the God that is revealed in the bible.
 

GodsGrace

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@Bruce-Leiter

Thought I'd post the below from
John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 2

2. That this distinction may be the more manifest, we must consider that the Providence of God, as taught in Scripture, is opposed 173to fortune and fortuitous causes. By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day—viz. that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried. If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death—all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered (Mt. 10:30), will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God.

Comment?

Some reformers agree with the above.
Did the confessions change this to make God more palidable?
 

Bruce-Leiter

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Your last paragraph is acceptable to all Christians.
So what's the difference with the reformed faith?

Do you believe, as John Piper does, that God predestinated even the dust particles that fly in the air?
(his words).

It sounds like you don't.
All Christians believe God ALLOWS evil...
we're starting to go around in circles...

so what's the difference between you - who claims to be reformed....
and me - who claims to be traditional?

Let's look at Proverbs 6:16-19
16There are six things which the LORD hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:

17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,

18A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,

19A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.


The very next line says to observe the laws of our father....

Two questions:

1. Why would God hate what HE has created/decreed/predestinated?
2. Why are we exhorted to obey commandments when it's God that has decreed/predestinated our every action?

It's not a question of my not being able to accept some things and you being able to accept them....
What I'm saying is that what you accept about God is not the God that is revealed in the bible.
Okay, I praise God that we're in agreement! Perhaps, the difference between the Reformed and mainline Christians is emphasis. The Reformed Christians starting with Calvin have emphasized that biblical truth more than the mainliners starting with Luther have.

God hates sin but loves sinners with his universal love, since "God so loved the world...." He puts real value on his creatures, especially his human ones; that's why he sent Jesus.

Your second question has a premise that is fatalistic. We must obey God's commandments because they are his will; he wants perfect humans, but no one's perfect. However, not only did Jesus die to take away the Father's righteous judgment against all our sins, but he rose again to give us his resurrection power to make progress in our spiritual lives (Colossians 3) toward that goal of perfection (Philippians 3), which we will have when we die and are resurrected.
 

Ritajanice

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Evil is certainly a mystery and big problem for Christianity.
Theodicy will never be understood by man and is a huge proplem.

The answer is not to believe that God CREATED sin/evil.
This would make God not worthy to be worshipped.
You don't admire a man that kicks his dog on a regular basis.

Bible, King James Version​


Isaiah


Previous Chapter

Isa.45​

[1] Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
[2] I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
[3] And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
[4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
[5] I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
[6] That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
[8] Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
[9] Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
[10] Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
[11] Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
[12] I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
[13] I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
[14] Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.
[15] Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
[16] They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
[17] But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
[18] For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
[19] I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
[20] Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
[21] Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
[22] Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
[24] Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
[25] In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
 

ChristinaL

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Plenty of reformed theologians.

But PERMITS is different than PREDESTINATING

Permits is passive and allows the person to do what he will.
PREDESTINATES is active and put the onus on God.

If God predestinates someone to steal....
how is that person responsible?

I know that it's a mystery - I've heard this many times....
but I don't believe God wants us to be ignorant of His laws.

If we steal of our own free will, a just God can punish us.
If we steal because God predestinated us to steal...then a just God cannot hold us responsible.

And, if God predestinates everything, He is certainly responsible for sin.
Since God cannot sin...
Voila,,,,something is wrong with this theology.
Sounds rather like Calvinism