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Ronald,
I( agree! Only those who ARE the church are saved! Going to a church building does not make one a Christian anymore than walking into a McDonalds makes on a big mac.
Yes, perseverance is also preservation of believers from two viewpoints, ours and God's.Many Christians who hold to Once Saved Always Saved understand it the same as Perseverance of the Saints. The title of this thread concerns the dangerous abuse of the OSAS where some think once you do that "decision for Christ" at one point of time, and you can later be living like the Devil and thinking you are a regenerate person, or a person who has been "born from above", or "born again".
From The Heidelberg Catechism (1563) as presented online by the Christian Reformed Church in North America, with Scripture Proofs
Q & A 1
Q. What is your only comfort
in life and in death?
A. That I am not my own,1
but belong—
body and soul,
in life and in death—2
to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ.3
He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood,4
and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil.5
He also watches over me in such a way6
that not a hair can fall from my head
without the will of my Father in heaven;7
in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.8
Because I belong to him,
Christ, by his Holy Spirit,
assures me of eternal life9
and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready
from now on to live for him.10
1 1 Cor. 6:19-20
2 Rom. 14:7-9
3 1 Cor. 3:23; Titus 2:14
4 1 Pet. 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:2
5 John 8:34-36; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 3:1-11
6 John 6:39-40; 10:27-30; 2 Thess. 3:3; 1 Pet. 1:5
7 Matt. 10:29-31; Luke 21:16-18
8 Rom. 8:28
9 Rom. 8:15-16; 2 Cor. 1:21-22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13-14
10 Rom. 8:1-17
"Translation © 2011, Faith Alive Christian Resources. This English translation approved by Synod 2011 of the Christian Reformed Church in North America and by General Synod 2011 of the Reformed Church in America."
Heidelberg Catechism
www.crcna.org
Notice that a Christian's eternal security is not a "once saved always saved" but one of perseverance as written clearly in that last paragraph in the answer to Q1 -
"Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him."
*There is a Baptist version of the Heidelberg Catechism by Hercules Collins -
OSAS doesn't mean that at all, dear brother! Ephesians 2:8-10:
Fatalism is the basis of calvinism. so not sure what your trying to say here?
Then, you misunderstand Calvinism. Someone has misinformed you about its beliefs. The Reformed faith on the basis of the Bible says that God has his plans for all events AND that humans are fully responsible for all their lives. Joseph's profession of faith in Genesis 50:20 is the clearest example when he says that his brothers' sins against him were entirely their fault, while God permitted them to save many people from the famine. There is a lot of mystery about how all that works out, but the Bible teaches both truths.
Properly understood, Calvinism isn't fatalistic. Both God's plans for his whole creation and human responsibility of all of their lives are true in the Bible and Calvinism (Genesis 50:20).
So are you calvinist? Does a calvinist believe that a person is saved by grace through faith.
Yes, I'm a Calvinist. And yes we believe that we are saved by grace through faith with the result of good works prompted and empowered by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:8-10). We believe that when we are born again, God gives us faith to follow him. They happen simultaneously. God has his plans for all life, AND, at the same time, humans have full responsibility for their whole lives. That's the teaching of the Bible, though in some ways it's mysterious (Genesis 50:20).
A small minority of Calvinists believe in double predestination. A majority believe that God chose to save some and passes by others who are unbelievers to let them have their own way. God's predestination without sinning and people's full responsibility for their own choices are both taught in Scripture, which are not fatalistic beliefs.
You would be the first calvinist I have met in 40 years that believes that a person who will go to hell is not predestined to hell..
Not so. If humans have full responsibility for all their actions, words, thoughts, and their whole lives, that belief is not fatalistic. Fatalism is the thought that we don't.
Still so
No, God saves, while humans are responsible to accept and trust in Jesus' death and resurrection to save them. Yes, there's a mystery that our minds can't solve about how the two truths work together. We can't reason everything out, because as God says in Isaiah 55.
No Bruce.
Bruce, again, you're not calvinist.
I don't know how you can be responsible for all your actions, but you are. Therein lies part of the mystery. The horrible sins that humans commit are all their fault, but God PERMITS them, doesn't cause them in order to bring good out of them for his people. Since he doesn't cause sin, he's not responsible of it. Yes, I graduated from Calvin University and Seminary, where I got a very solid Reformed education. Trust me, my comments reflect biblical and Reformed teachings.
