Scriptures that show that Christs death saved a person while in unbelief !

[brightfame52]

Heb 10:10.14 prove that those Christ died for are saved legally and perfectly before they believe solely by the offering of Christ which speaks to His death for them

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering/death of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 For by one offering/death he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

How can one be perfected and not be saved ?

 

[brightfame52]

@Scott Downey

John 6 answers a lot of questions on being foreknown and predestined to be the children of God
God's work is that you believe in Christ,

True if we are one of the Sheep He died for !

 

[IronMaiden]

@Scott Downey



True if we are one of the Sheep He died for !

Would you say then that anyone who comes to Jesus upon hearing the gospel are Sheep?

 

[brightfame52]

Would you say then that anyone who comes to Jesus upon hearing the gospel are Sheep?

Yes, if one comes to Faith/belief of the Truth, upon hearing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, they were one of His Sheep Jn 10:26

 

[IronMaiden]

Yes, if one comes to Faith/belief of the Truth, upon hearing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, they were one of His Sheep Jn 10:26

I so totally agree. Thank you.

 

[Scott Downey]

Would you say then that anyone who comes to Jesus upon hearing the gospel are Sheep?

Yes, cause of what Jesus says

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep​

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in [d]doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

30 I and My Father are one.”

 

[Scott Downey]

God the Father gave to Christ His sheep, because God foreknew and predestined them to come to the Son, believe and be saved

Another example

Eph 1

Greeting​

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
*****************************************

In Him you also trusted, see everyone who comes to Christ trusts themselves to Christ for salvation just as the apostles of the Lord ,as they were all chosen in Him by God before the foundation of the world. So we who believe were fully in the mind of God for salvation before God made anything.

We are saved by mercy and grace and the love of God towards us, and not by righteous works.

 

[Scott Downey]

John 6

41 The Jews then [g]complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life.

48 I am the bread of life.

49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
**************************************************************************
v51, by Christ saying this he tells them He is the savior of the entire world and not just the Jews, course that would infuriate the Jews who considered gentiles cursed of God and beneath them.

So some from every nation, God will have brought into the Kingdom of God. without respect to blood-nationality, we who believe are a holy nation, His own special people.

*****************************************************************************

1 Peter 2

Our Inheritance Through Christ’s Blood​

1 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow [a]thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People​

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who [b]are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Living Before the World​

11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, 12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus and His sheep. By the way Jesus knew who would believe and who would not. Jesus knew all men,

Jesus the Good Shepherd​

7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came [a]before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [b]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.


17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

*************************************************************

Jesus willingly laid down His life for you, the sheep. So that you would have eternal life and not perish in hell.

All men who died before Christ came went to either fiery torments (destiny of the wicked), or Paradise (destiny of the just, Abraham's Bosum a place where they received good things ministered to by angels of God) But even so, it was a captivity in death, it was not eternal life. Christ when He ascended into Heaven after God raised Him from the dead, led the captivity captive, took them all in Paradise into heaven with Him as without Christ they could not be perfected in salvation. No one comes to the Father except though Christ as He is the Door into eternal life in heaven with God.

 

[Ritajanice]

1 PETER 4:12ESV 12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. Don't be surprised when your faith is tested! And don't be afraid! Jesus -- who promised to never forsake you -- is still there to help you


As we put our trust and faith in Christ, as we develop more and more in spiritual maturity, the enemies darts/ arrows, become less and less...they can’t penetrate the heart...as we learn to understand what putting the full armour of God on means, which is “ spiritual “ armour.

Short commentary.

What is the spiritual meaning of the armor of God?
The armor of God represents the defense we must take in our spiritual lives. The Bible tells us that we are fighting a war against Satan, who seeks to destroy us. Therefore, we must take action and put on God's armor.

 

[Nancy]

John 6 answers a lot of questions on being foreknown and predestined to be the children of God
God's work is that you believe in Christ, Jesus adds on and says all those the Father gives to Him will come to Him.
If God has not foreknown and predestined you, you will not believe.
You may not want to believe Christ's word, but they are faithful and true.
If He did not want you to know this, He would have never said this.
And it makes your salvation secure and certain, if you have believed, you can know you are eternally His.

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”

32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Thank you Scott,
I like your explanation.

"John 6 answers a lot of questions on being foreknown and predestined to be the children of God
God's work is that you believe in Christ, Jesus adds on and says all those the Father gives to Him will come to Him.
If God has not foreknown and predestined you, you will not believe.
You may not want to believe Christ's word, but they are faithful and true.
If He did not want you to know this, He would have never said this.
And it makes your salvation secure and certain, if you have believed, you can know you are eternally His."

"If God has not foreknown and predestined you, you will not believe." <--- Does God not foreknow all things?

"Nothing in the future is hidden from God’s eyes (Isaiah 41:23; 42:9; 44:6–8; 46:10). God sees our lives, our bodies, and our days even before we are conceived: “My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be” (Psalm 139:15–16)."

It just seems to me that His foreknowledge shows Him who will and who will not submit to His Son, therefore declaring them predestined to Hell. does that make sense?
Thanks for the reply!

 

[Scott Downey]

Thank you Scott,
I like your explanation.

"John 6 answers a lot of questions on being foreknown and predestined to be the children of God
God's work is that you believe in Christ, Jesus adds on and says all those the Father gives to Him will come to Him.
If God has not foreknown and predestined you, you will not believe.
You may not want to believe Christ's word, but they are faithful and true.
If He did not want you to know this, He would have never said this.
And it makes your salvation secure and certain, if you have believed, you can know you are eternally His."

"If God has not foreknown and predestined you, you will not believe." <--- Does God not foreknow all things?

"Nothing in the future is hidden from God’s eyes (Isaiah 41:23; 42:9; 44:6–8; 46:10). God sees our lives, our bodies, and our days even before we are conceived: “My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be” (Psalm 139:15–16)."

It just seems to me that His foreknowledge shows Him who will and who will not submit to His Son, therefore declaring them predestined to Hell. does that make sense?
Thanks for the reply!

I take the POV that God knows His own before the creation and chose them in Him. I don't believe God foreknows from the sense of those who chose for God before the creation as God says 'no one seeks for God'
Jesus says we did not choose God, He chose us.

John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Consider Saul becomes Paul, God chose Him, Saul did not Choose Christ

1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [a]It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Ananias Baptizes Saul​

10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”

And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much [b]harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children[c] of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord [d]Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

 

[Scott Downey]

Paul's story as told by him

Acts 22
6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’

9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light [a]and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.

12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

 

[Ritajanice]

John 15

English Standard Version

​

I Am the True Vine​

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants,[a] for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

The Hatred of the World​

18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin,[b] but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’
26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

 

[Ritajanice]

Commentary and scripture.

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” John4:24

God is a spirit. Therefore the things pertaining to Him are spiritual. We receive everything we require first in the spirit, and then it manifests in the physical.
The above scripture has three main lessons for us:

• We should not be mislead, by those who claim that for us to see God, or worship Him, we should dress in a certain way, worship at a certain place, eat or abstain from certain foods, or pay large sums of money to see a man of God for direction. Instead, one’s state of mind is the key in worshipping God.
• Phillipians 3:3 says; “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.” We must depend upon God’s spirit for strength and assistance, laying our souls under His influences and operations. We must devote our own spirits to, and employ them in, the service of God.
• “For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;” Romans 1:9 We must worship Him with fixedness of thought and a flame of affection, with all that is in us. Juxtaposed to this is the flesh. It is the corrupt nature and so to worship God with our spirits, is to worship Him with our graces.

Hebrews 10:22 in Other Translations 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 22 let us go right into the presence of God with sincere hearts fully trusting him.

Speaking the truth in our hearts requires that the truth we know and trust be externalized in our words and actions. Jesus was sinless because His heart was sinless. The truth in His heart made its way into His words and deeds.

 

[brightfame52]

Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Christ death alone redeemed them He died for from the curse of the law, so they were saved from hell and dying in their sins before they believed.

 

[ProDeo]

God’s wrath ‘remaining’ on disobedient ones does not involve “eternal conscious torment” but involve a death from which no return to life is possible. Isn’t that enough of a punishment? It is for God, but apparently not those who relish the thought of what ECT means about God’s character.

I hope you realize an universalist reasons the same way.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I hope you realize an universalist reasons the same way.

The reasoning is from Scripture….not just cherry picked verses that seem to tell a distorted story.

Any who believe in ECT, do not know God at all. It is insulting to his character and goes against his perfect justice. It is a satanic lie that portrays God with the devil’s love of violence and injustice.

How is it “just” to torture a soul eternally for a short life of sin that was not their fault in the first place?
Sin is an unwanted inheritance, caused by our first parents, and used by the devil to torment humankind, whom he can lead into sinful conduct…..into violence, bloodshed and immorality….the things he loves. We can see it in the world……and even in our entertainment choices. How much entertainment today revolves around violence and bloodshed? How much of it is demonic?

If you know someone with an inherited disease, who has no choice in the matter, would you punish them for showing its symptoms? Would you then continue to punish them after death eternally?

The Bible teaches us how to deal with our sinful condition by not allowing satan to exploit it. The sin in all of us is a fact of living this life, but the sin we commit is a choice. We are the driver of this vehicle.

What we believe is one thing, but why we believe it, is known only to God, who is a reader of hearts, not just words.
If we have been suckered into believing what is not true, we have to wonder why God has not corrected us, don’t we?
I see such sincerity in many here who “believe” what they believe with all their heart…..but if what they have accepted as their truth is not God’s truth, then what went wrong?

Paul tells us…
2 Thess 2: 1-12…speaking of the time of Jesus return…the time we are living in right now…..

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion [apostasy] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (ESV)

This explains why there are so many who are “deluded”. The devil has a multitude of ways to derail a person’s faith or to influence it in the wrong direction. The more sincerely people are entrenched in their false beliefs, the better he likes it. But do you see God’s response? Those who refuse the truth because it seems like lies to them (as it was in Jesus’ day) God allows them to be deceived because they have no love for the truth (for what the whole Bible teaches), but only want to believe their own accepted version of it.
These ones take pleasure in what God condemns. They mix the truth with pagan ideas and manufacture their own churches, teaching people to love what God hates. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

Matt 7:21-23 tells us the outcome for these ones…..Jesus says…
”Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)

Calling yourself a “Christian” doesn’t make you one, nor does claiming Jesus as your “Lord”..…We have to be found “doing the will“ of the Father in heaven….so unless we know what God’s will is for us, how can we do it?
What does God require of us? Can you tell me?

 

[ProDeo]

The reasoning is from Scripture….not just cherry picked verses that seem to tell a distorted story.

Any who believe in ECT, do not know God at all. It is insulting to his character and goes against his perfect justice. It is a satanic lie that portrays God with the devil’s love of violence and injustice.

How is it “just” to torture a soul eternally for a short life of sin that was not their fault in the first place?
Sin is an unwanted inheritance, caused by our first parents, and used by the devil to torment humankind, whom he can lead into sinful conduct…..into violence, bloodshed and immorality….the things he loves. We can see it in the world……and even in our entertainment choices. How much entertainment today revolves around violence and bloodshed? How much of it is demonic?

If you know someone with an inherited disease, who has no choice in the matter, would you punish them for showing its symptoms? Would you then continue to punish them after death eternally?

The Bible teaches us how to deal with our sinful condition by not allowing satan to exploit it. The sin in all of us is a fact of living this life, but the sin we commit is a choice. We are the driver of this vehicle.

What we believe is one thing, but why we believe it, is known only to God, who is a reader of hearts, not just words.
If we have been suckered into believing what is not true, we have to wonder why God has not corrected us, don’t we?
I see such sincerity in many here who “believe” what they believe with all their heart…..but if what they have accepted as their truth is not God’s truth, then what went wrong?

Paul tells us…
2 Thess 2: 1-12…speaking of the time of Jesus return…the time we are living in right now…..

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion [apostasy] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (ESV)

This explains why there are so many who are “deluded”. The devil has a multitude of ways to derail a person’s faith or to influence it in the wrong direction. The more sincerely people are entrenched in their false beliefs, the better he likes it. But do you see God’s response? Those who refuse the truth because it seems like lies to them (as it was in Jesus’ day) God allows them to be deceived because they have no love for the truth (for what the whole Bible teaches), but only want to believe their own accepted version of it.
These ones take pleasure in what God condemns. They mix the truth with pagan ideas and manufacture their own churches, teaching people to love what God hates. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

Matt 7:21-23 tells us the outcome for these ones…..Jesus says…
”Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)

Calling yourself a “Christian” doesn’t make you one, nor does claiming that Jesus as your “Lord”..…We have to be found “doing the will“ of the Father in heaven….so unless we know what God’s will is for us, how can we do it?
What does God require of us? Can you tell me?

Big words Aunty.

I already refuted Annihilation with Scripture, you adding to Scripture needed to fit your doctrine.

It does not mean I understand ECT, I don't.

I can sympathize with your reasoning, likewise I can sympathize with the reasoning of universalism which is the same reasoning.

Point is, both are not in Scripture, ECT is, for the record -

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Does not fit with Annihilation.

Other than that -

1. When Jesus speaks about outer darkness He did not say people will die there.

2. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. -- Rev 22:15

Still alive.

Whatever the truth, I trust the Lord, even if I don't understand, one day I will.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Big words Aunty.

Its a big subject, ProDeo. One that has to be examined scripturally, not just theologically.

I already refuted Annihilation with Scripture, you adding to Scripture needed to fit your doctrine.

There was no adding to Scripture, just reasoning on Scripture already written. The Bible is a big book but it has no contradictions. There was only life or death offered to Adam…and also to Israel….there was no mention of “heaven or hell” until Christendom embraced the idea of an immortal soul. There is no such thing in the Bible.

It does not mean I understand ECT, I don't.

I can sympathize with your reasoning, likewise I can sympathize with the reasoning of universalism which is the same reasoning.

Point is, both are not in Scripture, ECT is, for the record -

I disagree….ECT is not in scripture for the simple reason that Jews did not believe in an afterlife…their Scripture never mentioned it. They would have their lives restored by resurrection, as Jesus demonstrated himself when he brought three people back to life. Those he restored to life had not gone anywhere, but were “sleeping” in death as the Bible says Lazarus was. (John 11:11-14)

Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Does not fit with Annihilation.

It fits perfectly through the lens provided by the entirety of Scripture…..not the distorted lens provided by the churches of Christendom.
Think for a moment…”the lake of fire” is called what?…..“The second death”…right? Why is it called “the second death”, that makes it different to the first kind?

The first death is inherited from Adam and was defeated by Christ’s sacrifice….it is done away with by the promised resurrection…..(John 5:28-29) Death is the opposite of life, not a continuation of it somewhere else.
The second death will never be defeated because there is no mention of it ever being done away with…it remains as a place where any future rebel will find their place in utter annihilation….the second death is one from which no resurrection is possible…..eternal death is the opposite of eternal life….where did that clear Bible teaching get messed up? Who said eternal punishment cannot be the second death….? Who said death is not death?
Wasn’t it the devil who told the woman “you surely will not die”? An immortal soul was the perfect way to back up that lie. The demons have been impersonating the dead ever since. Why do we imagine that spirit mediums were banned in Israel?

If the dead are really dead as the Bible says that they are….with no thinking, no planning or any knowledge available to them, then there is nothing conscious to torment, is there? (Eccl 9:5, 10) You have to be alive to suffer. The dead are not alive.
Only the righteous are promised eternal life….in order to punish the wicked eternally, God would have to give them eternal life as well….that makes no sense.

Other than that -

1. When Jesus speaks about outer darkness He did not say people will die there.

Again where is this “outside of”? What is the “darkness” into which these people are thrown?
It is spiritual darkness whilst they are still alive in the flesh, but dead to God. We often see the “gnashing of their teeth” on these boards. It is exactly what the Pharisees did to Jesus…..he told them that they would not escape the judgment of “Gehenna“….the lake of fire….the second death…..permanent death is eternal punishment.

The Pharisees‘ future was laid out for them….they would forfeit life…never to be seen again. (Matt 23:33)

2. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. -- Rev 22:15

Still alive.

Look around you in the world and see them ProDeo…they are all dead in their trespasses, but alive and doing the will of their counterfeit god, abiding by the teachings of their counterfeit religions…and up to their necks in this world’s corrupt politics. (John 17:16; John 18:36)

Whatever the truth, I trust the Lord, even if I don't understand, one day I will.

“One day” will be too late….now is the time to choose whom you will serve…”the only true God”…(John 17:3) or “the god of this world”…(2 Cor 4:3-4) Most people can’t tell the difference….their beliefs are so ancient that they don’t dare question them, assuming that Christianity was never corrupted as early as the first century…..Satan’s most successful weapons are time and deception. The longer a deception is held to be true, the harder it is to dislodge it from our thinking processes.

When “the end” comes, there will only be “wheat and weeds” in the world….”sheep or goats”….so when Jesus arrives as judge, it will already be decided which category we have placed ourselves in. There is no fence to sit on wondering which way to go……Jesus said “whoever is not for me is against me”….so judging by Matt 7:21-23, “many” will be shocked at their rejection…trying to make excuses, as if Jesus doesn’t know his sheep…..and the sheep don’t know the voice of their shepherd.

We will be judged by whom we have accepted as our God, and what we have done with our lives in obedience to his commands, Jesus will know if we have been doing the will of his Father, or his enemy.