Five scriptures that clearly teach the Death of Christ saves !

[David Lamb]

I got that part but it does not align with scripture.

How can you say that Romans 5:19 does not align with Scripture? It is Scripture!

What about the OTHER many of this world. They were not made sinners. Could you point out any people you know who have not been made sinners.

What other many of the world? Romans 5:19 says:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” (Ro 5:19 NKJV)

No reference there to any "other many" of the world.

Show where scripture uses these terms, headship, just what does that mean for you, since I don't think you will find it in scripture.
The whole of Romans 5 as no direct relationship to believers who you call elect.

Romans 5 begins:

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” (Ro 5:1 NKJV)

Those who have peace with God through Jesus Christ are Christians. Indeed, the whole of Romans is addressed to Christians:

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.” (Ro 1:7-8 NKJV)

You seem to pick out only one half of a text and then add in your own personal theology, rather than what scripture is saying the the whole of Romans 5.

Rom 5:12 states clearly that death spread to all men, thus all men sinned through death.
So the base subject that follows deals with all men (sinners). Rom 5:6 says Christ died for the ungoldly. The ungodly are all ll the sinners, unless you can how that some men were not ungodly (sinners)
Then we move to Rom 5:18, The trespass came from one man (Adam) the result was judgment (death) came to all men. So far we have no delineation or separation of subject, namely all men. The second half of Rom 5:18, Through one Man's (Christ) righteous act the free gift came to all men , resulting in justification to life. The subject throughout has been (ALL MEN -sinners) never a mention of believers.

Vs 19 is an equation between Adam and Christ. Adam's judgment for his sin was death. The very same people recieved life by the one act of righteousness of Christ. Just because the word many is used it refers to vs 18, vs 12, vs 6- which is every human being.
To say apart from v18 that ONLY many human beings were made sinners denies the fact that all men were made sinners, not just many. Thus the second MANY refers to the same amount, - all mankind. Thus it balances with the other texts of Romans.
I Cor 15:21-22 gives a very clear, unmistakable summary of Rom verses under discussion. Believers are not the subject in these verses.

So are you claiming that the bible teaches that everybody without exception will be a Christian, made righteous by the Lord Jesus Christ?

You seem to suggest that Romans 5:19 is not about believers. Here it is, with the following two verses for context:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Ro 5:19-21 NKJV)

Who has grace abounding in their lives? Who has eternal life through Jesus Christ? Christians.

 

[Rightglory]

How can you say that Romans 5:19 does not align with Scripture? It is Scripture!

What other many of the world? Romans 5:19 says:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” (Ro 5:19 NKJV)

No reference there to any "other many" of the world.

Clearly you have not read the entire line of discussion here. However, Rom 5:12 clearly states that all men became sinners because of the condemnation of death for Adam's sin. So, if all men are sinners, which reinforces Rom 5:6 where Christ died for the ungodly, which is all men, no exceptions, then we get to vs 18 which also clearly states that the one sin, of Adam, the judgement (death) came to all men. Even so, through ONE Man's righteous act came the free gift came to all men, resulting in life.

Then vs 19 uses the word many to say the very same thing. Adam's disobedience made many sinners, so also by one Man's obedience made many righteous. You would need to rewrite scripture to say that Adam's sin did not make all men sinners. Which would mean that many were not made sinners. Also, it would mean Christ did not die for all men because many did not need salvation from death and sin.
These are Incarnational verses, It is speaking about the condemnation of death through Adam, this is physical death. Christ came Incarnated, took on our human nature, body, soul and will, so that He could redeem mankind from death and give life, Physical life for an eternity. I Cor 15:12-22 with emphasis on vs 21-22.
Which is why Christ is able to call all men to repentance. This is why all men will be raised in the last day to immortality and incorruptibility I Cor 15:52-53.
Heb 2:14-16 say the very same thing. Christ became man to defeat Satan who had the power over death and sin. Heb 2:9, Christ died for all men. He actually redeemed the world so that we might have a New Heaven and New Earth.
Why did He do all this. So that He could again have communion with His most prized element of His Creation. Not only in this life but for an eternity. The place we spend in eternity is all up to man. We either decide to follow Him, life a life of repentance, or we can live a life of disobedience, heaven or hell.

Romans 5 begins:

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” (Ro 5:1 NKJV)

Those who have peace with God through Jesus Christ are Christians. Indeed, the whole of Romans is addressed to Christians:

The WHOLE Bible was written for Christians. Not everything is about them however.

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.” (Ro 1:7-8 NKJV)





So are you claiming that the bible teaches that everybody without exception will be a Christian, made righteous by the Lord Jesus Christ?

You seem to suggest that Romans 5:19 is not about believers. Here it is, with the following two verses for context:

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Ro 5:19-21 NKJV)

Who has grace abounding in their lives? Who has eternal life through Jesus Christ? Christians.

Where have I even hinted at such a thing. More of your misunderstanding of the context. It might alude to the fact that you hold to Limited Atonement which Brightfame52 holds. This world and mankind would still be doomed to permanent death unless Christl saved the world. I John 4:14, John 4:42.

 

[brightfame52]

@Rightglory

Clearly you have not read the entire line of discussion here. However, Rom 5:12 clearly states that all men became sinners because of the condemnation of death for Adam's sin.

Even though all men were made sinners, Rom 5:12 is strictly about the elect, their solidarity and consequence with Adam, and then their solidarity and consequence in Christ. The non elect vessels of wrath are not in view.

 

[Rightglory]

@Rightglory



Even though all men were made sinners, Rom 5:12 is strictly about the elect, their solidarity and consequence with Adam, and then their solidarity and consequence in Christ. The non elect vessels of wrath are not in view.

You go from bad to worse with your double down on your view. If what you say that only the elect were of Adam, even though it says all men, then all other human beings were not human. Thus the Incarnated Body of Christ was an elect body, differentiated from a non-elect human being. Can you explain just how a non-elect body looks like or its characteristics that differentiate from an elects body?
The key, active word in Rom 5:12 is ALL MEN. There is not even a hint at believers or elect. This is why your view of Election is also unscriptural. Your whole theological view, starting with the erroneous view of Original Sin which leads you to these other unscriptural statements regarding human beings.

The theological view of scripture is that unless Christ defeats death, redeems the world, all else is in vain. You cannot have a single believer or an unbeliever. Your theory puts man still under the condemnation of Adam, permanent death, no eternal existence for which man was created.

Just how do you handle I Cor 15:12-22? Also note vs 16-19, and especially vs 21-22.

 

[brightfame52]

You go from bad to worse with your double down on your view. If what you say that only the elect were of Adam, even though it says all men, then all other human beings were not human. Thus the Incarnated Body of Christ was an elect body, differentiated from a non-elect human being. Can you explain just how a non-elect body looks like or its characteristics that differentiate from an elects body?
The key, active word in Rom 5:12 is ALL MEN. There is not even a hint at believers or elect. This is why your view of Election is also unscriptural. Your whole theological view, starting with the erroneous view of Original Sin which leads you to these other unscriptural statements regarding human beings.

The theological view of scripture is that unless Christ defeats death, redeems the world, all else is in vain. You cannot have a single believer or an unbeliever. Your theory puts man still under the condemnation of Adam, permanent death, no eternal existence for which man was created.

Just how do you handle I Cor 15:12-22? Also note vs 16-19, and especially vs 21-22.

All the epistles are to the elect about the elect, very little is stated about the non elect, save they shall perish in their sins. Yes 1 Cor 15:12-22 is about the elect.

 

[Rightglory]

All the epistles are to the elect about the elect, very little is stated about the non elect, save they shall perish in their sins. Yes 1 Cor 15:12-22 is about the elect.

The entire Bible is for believers. It is our guide. However there is a lot about unbelievers as well.
Now, lets look at I Cor 15:12-22. First it has nothing to do with elect. It has everything to do with Christ's work of redemption, redemption of the world, but here specifically mankind. It is Incarnational.
The key active phrase in THE DEAD. Paul gets into a discussion with those who do not believe in a resurrection OF THE DEAD.
Paul says, if there is not resurrection of THE DEAD then Christ is not risen. If Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. He repeats the idea that if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen., He repeats the idea that ones faith is futile, To make it even more clear regarding one's faith he restates it again. Those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. For if we have hope only in this life we (believers) are most pitiable. Why? because we will die, perish, permanently because we would still be under the curse of death .No eternal existence for anyone, believer or non-believer.

Then we have the summation of the Incarnation. The comparison between the first Adam and the Second Adam (Christ).
vs 21, For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection OF THE DEAD.
Vs 22 repeats the equation saying the same thing differently. For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. That is physical death, to physical life. Some in heaven, some in hell. But all will be raised in the last day to immortality and incorruptibility.

Now there is absolutely nothing about the elect, except in the negative. It is all about reversing the fall. It is all about restoring God's creation back to life as He intended in creating Adam to be eternal and in communion with Him now in this life but also for an eternity.

Because you do not understand these verses and state they are about the elect, you are directly denying who Christ actually is and what He accomplished. It is a direct denial of the Incarnation. Your idea of a limited atonement is an impossibility if Christ is Incarnated, and assumed our human natures to overcome death, not for some, but for all of mankind, even the world itself. Man does not have different human natures, so that Christ could only assume the nature believers have which is an absurd concept.

In order to support your theory of salvation, you feel it necessary to change ALL MEN to elect, and ALL THE DEAD, to the elect is a gross error of changing scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

@Rightglory

The entire Bible is for believers.

True, the elect. All the passages you quoted like Rom 5; 1 Cor 15 its only pertaining to the elect and their experience. The reprobate are not in for consideration at all.

 

[Rightglory]

@Rightglory



True, the elect. All the passages you quoted like Rom 5; 1 Cor 15 its only pertaining to the elect and their experience. The reprobate are not in for consideration at all.

Those verses have never been about the elect. By not understanding these verses and insisting they are about the elect, you cannot believe in the resurrection. We are in the Lenten period. All about Christ's suffering, death and resurrection. Does Christ's death and resurrection have a role in your theology. If Christ did not raise all men from death, then obviously your theology does not have a heaven or hell. You believe what Paul is saying in vs 17, your faith is futile. also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. You have a theology that only exist on this earth, there is no eternity for anyone. As Paul states, you are most pitiable. Take a serious look at those texts again, and then explain much more fully why you think it is speaking about the elect.

Don't give me the statement you made above without evidence or explanation. Saying something, even saying it many times, does not necessarily make is so.

 

[brightfame52]

@Rightglory

Those verses have never been about the elect.

Yes they are only about the elect. The letters are only to the elect, Period Rom 1:1-8

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

 

[Rightglory]

@Rightglory



Yes they are only about the elect. The letters are only to the elect, Period Rom 1:1-8

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So, you actually have no evidence for your statement regarding Rom 5: 12-19 and I Cor 15:12-22. So when you have nothing you just change contexts so you can make your theory say what you want it to say. Context of Rom 1 has nothing to do with context of Rom 5.
So, where is your evidence that Rom 5:12 through 19 deals with elect rather than death to all, and life to all, Same for I Cor 15: 12-22.
I can understand some misunderstanding of many other things in scripture, but anyone with a modicum of understanding can't miss the meaning of the contexts that we are dealing with. Rom 5:18 and I Cor 15:21-22 cannot be more clear, there is nothing ambiguous about those verses and neither one is about believers,

One can sum it up with two phrases,. All men got death from Adam, all men got life From Christ. Or Christ reversed the fall, death to life.
Or you could also say, extinction(annihilation) to eternal existence.

 

[brightfame52]

So, you actually have no evidence for your statement regarding Rom 5: 12-19 and I Cor 15:12-22. So when you have nothing you just change contexts so you can make your theory say what you want it to say. Context of Rom 1 has nothing to do with context of Rom 5.
So, where is your evidence that Rom 5:12 through 19 deals with elect rather than death to all, and life to all, Same for I Cor 15: 12-22.
I can understand some misunderstanding of many other things in scripture, but anyone with a modicum of understanding can't miss the meaning of the contexts that we are dealing with. Rom 5:18 and I Cor 15:21-22 cannot be more clear, there is nothing ambiguous about those verses and neither one is about believers,

One can sum it up with two phrases,. All men got death from Adam, all men got life From Christ. Or Christ reversed the fall, death to life.
Or you could also say, extinction(annihilation) to eternal existence.

You have no evidence that those epistles are referring to more than the elect to whom they are written.

 

[Rightglory]

You have no evidence that those epistles are referring to more than the elect to whom they are written.

Scripture itself is not written just for believers. It is for all men to be instructed from the scriptures. The Holy Spirit calls all men to repentance, through the Gospel. That Gospel is taught by Christians to non-christians through the working of the Holy Spirit.

Once again, you evade my post entirely and sneak off to some other totally unrelated statement. Why can't you discuss the verses.
When you evade, there is nothing to discuss. It means you don't understand your own position well enough to discuss them.

 

[brightfame52]

Scripture itself is not written just for believers. It is for all men to be instructed from the scriptures. The Holy Spirit calls all men to repentance, through the Gospel. That Gospel is taught by Christians to non-christians through the working of the Holy Spirit.

Once again, you evade my post entirely and sneak off to some other totally unrelated statement. Why can't you discuss the verses.
When you evade, there is nothing to discuss. It means you don't understand your own position well enough to discuss them.

You have no evidence that those epistles are referring to more than the elect to whom they are written.

 

[Rightglory]

You have no evidence that those epistles are referring to more than the elect to whom they are written.

Another nonsensical comment on my post. You continually evade the actual content and context. The context is not about non-elect either, just as it is not about elect. It is about what Christ accomplished through His Incarnation. I John 4:14, Heb 2:9, I John 2:2, John 4:42

 

[brightfame52]

Another nonsensical comment on my post. You continually evade the actual content and context. The context is not about non-elect either, just as it is not about elect. It is about what Christ accomplished through His Incarnation. I John 4:14, Heb 2:9, I John 2:2, John 4:42

You have no evidence that those epistles are referring to more than the elect to whom they are written. If Im writing monkeys why talk about squirrels ?

 

[Rightglory]

You have no evidence that those epistles are referring to more than the elect to whom they are written. If Im writing monkeys why talk about squirrels ?

You ignore evidence, clear evidence, undeniable evidence. It just does not fit your personal theory. You are writing about monkeys, while most of us are speaking about what scripture teaches.

 

[brightfame52]

You ignore evidence, clear evidence, undeniable evidence. It just does not fit your personal theory. You are writing about monkeys, while most of us are speaking about what scripture teaches.

You have no evidence that those epistles are referring to more than the elect to whom they are written. If Im writing monkeys why talk about squirrels ?

 

[Rightglory]

You have no evidence that those epistles are referring to more than the elect to whom they are written. If Im writing monkeys why talk about squirrels ?

You keep saying this, but the whole discussion has NEVER been about to whom the Bible was written. I already answer that as well. We (I) am trying to discuss one facet of that Bible, a teaching called the Incarnation/atonement/Work of Christ. Howwever you have not added much to the discussion, most often avoiding it because you do not have any evidence against what I have presented from scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

You keep saying this, but the whole discussion has NEVER been about to whom the Bible was written. I already answer that as well. We (I) am trying to discuss one facet of that Bible, a teaching called the Incarnation/atonement/Work of Christ. Howwever you have not added much to the discussion, most often avoiding it because you do not have any evidence against what I have presented from scripture.

You have no evidence that those epistles are referring to more than the elect to whom they are written. If Im writing monkeys why talk about squirrels ?

 

[Rightglory]

You have no evidence that those epistles are referring to more than the elect to whom they are written. If Im writing monkeys why talk about squirrels ?

As usual you end up with useless comments. The problem here is that you don't have anything to say about monkeys either.