Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
so believing that God keeps his promises is fatalism? I am confused. what do you mean here?
Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved
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"But we are bound to give thanks to God alway for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" (2Thess 2:13 ERV)
Not only did God ordain and predestine the salvation of the elect, He also ordained the means thereto.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
yes,
But he still demands we make the decision to trust him
He will not keep that from us, nor force us to receive it.
Thats the purpose of the cross..
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Acts 2:40 save yourselves
2 Cor 7:1 cleansed ourselves
Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God
James 4:7 submit yourselves therefore to God
James 4:8 Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded
1 Pet 1:22 ye have purified your souls
2 Pet 1:10 give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
1 Jn 5:21 keep yourselves from idols
Man clearly has a role in his own salvation, salvation therefore is neither monergistic or unconditional according to the Bible.
These verses I cited do NOT teach the ideal that man can save himself by himself. But God has given man what man needs to be saved/justified (the gospel) but it is up to man to take what God has given and obey that gospel in order to be saved (2 Thess 1:8). Hence man saves himself, cleanses himself, purifies himself by obeying the gospel that God has given that saves.
You're drowning in the sea and I throw you a life line, a rope and tell you to grab the rope and save yourself. You grab the rope and are saved but you did not save yourself by yourself for I provided you the MEANS to be saved and you chose to use that means to 'save yourself'. God has provided man the means to be saved, the gospel, and it is up to man to 'grab' hold of the gospel and obey it to be saved. God does not unconditionally force salvation upon anyone but man must conditionally accept the means of salvation God has provided to man.
My points still stand uncontested:
Any "teaching" (regardless of what that teaching is called whether it's called OSAS or POTS,) that claims salvation is 100 percent UNconditional has no Bible basis. God never promised salvation is UNconditional hence God cannot break a promise He never made.
No verse teaches that a sinner is UNconditionally saved regardless of what the sinner does, thinks, believes, behaves nor that the Christian remains and continues UNconditionally saved regardless of what that Christian does, thinks, believes, behaves.
No verse teaches that God has placed some onus upon Himself to see to it that the Christian will for a certainty live faithful life unto death. 2 Pet 1:9-10, Jude 1:21, 2 Cor 6:1, James 5:12, Heb 4:11, 1 Tim 3:6.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The Bible does NOT teach UNconditional salvation of the sinner or UNconditional salvation of the Christian.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You just put everyone under law. or salvation by works
Good luck with that.
Paul made it clear.
Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
But hey, if you want to work to earn salvation, Feel free. Don't let me stop you. I will just wish you luck, Because it is impossible..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
it certainly does not teach CONDITIONAL salvation to anyone.
The jew could not earn salvation by the law
the church can not earn salvation by their own works of righteousness.
Its of Grace, or it is of works.. You can;t have it both ways,
go the way of the jew (works) and fail
or give it all to Christ as the tax collector and Christ wins, and you are blessed by Christ victory
Ritajanice
Born-Again
You can’t trust God without becoming Born Again, you wouldn’t know God without being Born Of The Spirit.
Without his Spirit we are none of his, just as his word says...
You must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God!.
That is by divine revelation... you can’t read your way into the Kingdom Of God.
By His will we are Born Again...not by mans will...
Without his Spirit we are none of his, just as his word says...
You must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God!.
That is by divine revelation... you can’t read your way into the Kingdom Of God.
By His will we are Born Again...not by mans will...
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
I cited verses that clearly shows man has a role in his own salvation and that role is obedience.....
Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that OBEY Him, Heb 5:9.
seeing ye have purified your souls How? by OBEYING the truth 1 Pet 1:22
Obedience is not a work of merit, obedience earns nothing, Lk 17:7-10. The Jews were lost for they would NOT obey God, they would not submit unto the righteousness of God Rom 10:3.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Paul clearly makes obedience to God necessary in one being saved, Rom 6:16-18
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
In the verses you cite Paul is contrasting obedience from works of merit/works of the OT law. Nowhere does Paul teach works of merit or works of the OT save. But Paul does make it clear obedience justifies...ye have obeyed from the heart..then made free from sin (justified).
Behold
Well-Known Member
This is the obedience of Faith.
Notice that Jesus is coming back to burn... with Vengeance...
2 Thess 1:8-9.
That is not symbollic.
Who is going to find that fire?
= "all those who do not OBEY the Gospel".
See that?
That is "obedience unto righteousness".. as only God can give Righteousness, as "the Gift of Righteousness", and that only happens when we "OBEY the Gospel".
How do you "OBEY the Gospel"...
A.) You BELIEVE IT., and that is how you attain OBEDIENCE unto Righteousness............you OBEY the Gospel......>you BELIEVE IT, by FAITH, and God will give you "the Gift of Righteousness"...
So, there is your "obedience unto righteousness".
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
No, Like your pals, you post scripture out of context.
Yep
and what do we obey?
THE GOSPEL
How do we obey the gospel?
1. Repent - change you view about self and God
2. Believe - recieve the gift of salvation.
Our faith is what overcomes not only our sin but the world. Not our works.
Obedience is a work of merit when you are obeying commands in order to save yourself.
You work to earn a wage
when you work to obey (of your own power) to be saved, Your trying to earn salvation.
Salvation is a gift. it can not be earned.. Look to christ, stop looking to yourself
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
yawn
Self righteous
Ernest T bass is doing like he has done since I first met him in Christin Chat. He is pumping his chest. telling God thank God I am not like the inner.
He refuses to get on his knee as the tax collector. and call out for Gods mercy.
Good luck sir.. Your gospel is not welcome in the church. because it is no gospel at all
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Psa 119:172
"...for all thy commandments are righteousness."
"Obedience unto righteousness" per Rom 10:16 means obedience to Gods' commands. Yet those Jews would not obey God, they would not believe, would not confess, would not obey the gospel, Rom 10:9,10,16. Hence they were serving "sin unto death" rather than serving "obedience UNTO righteousness".
2 Thess 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" It is those who 'obey not' that will be lost in flaming fire" therefore the logical deduction is obedience is what saves, obedience is what keeps one from the flaming fire.
But is specifically says obey not the gospel, hence it is the gospel that must be obeyed to be saved.
---One then must obey the gospel, the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
--How then does one obey these historical events of Christ's death, burial and resurrection which is the gospel?
--Rom 6:3-6 to become a Christian one must DIE to sin, the old man of sin is BURIED in a watery grave from which he then is RAISED UP FROM (resurrected) to THEN walk in newness of life. So there must be this death, burial and resurrection (obeying the gospel) that must take place to be saved/not be in flaming fire. There is no death, burial or resurrection taking place when one recites a 'sinner's prayer' nor is there a death, burial or resurrection in faith onlyism or in kind of supernatural subjective Holy Spirit "experience".
Salvation is conditional.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
I posted no verse out of context, it appears you just do not like what those verses say.
Salvation cannot be earned so that is not the issue here but you keep bringing it up.
Salvation is CONDITIONAL upon obedience to God's will and obedience is not a work of merit. There is no case in the Bible where one's obedience to God earned God's free gift that God had to give but obedience was a condition that must be met to receive God's free gift.
It would help if some people would spend much time studying the topic of obedience.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Your right, it can not be earned..
Then it must be earned
good day sir.. I could not deal with your self righteousness before. i do not wish to deal with it now
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Doing God's righteousness is not self-righteouness where one does his OWN righteousness..
Rom 10:3
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
The Bible makes it plain there is a DIFFERENCE between one doing his OWN righteousness that does not save and obeying/submitting to GOD'S righteousness that does save.
Again, some need to study the Bible and learn the difference between obedience to God's will that does save and works of merit that do not saved. There are TWO DIFFERENT types of works mentioned in ROm 10:3 where one trype did not save the Jews and one type that WOULD have saved the Jews. Hence all works are not alike.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Again, show the verse that says obedience to God's will earns God's free gift or show one example where one's obedience to God earned that person God's free gift of grace......just one.
Behold
Well-Known Member
No one who is trying to work their way into heaven, by keeping commandments, and law, has ever made it yet.
You wont be the first, @Ernest T. Bass .... as there is no first.
Let me show you something, that might give you a new set of eyes.
Just a little story.
Lets say... that you are the last person on earth, and you are 86 yrs old, and you've never read a bible.
You've never seen a bible.
You have not been taught any theology.
You are not religious, you're not atheist, you are just living from day to day.
Its the afternoon, and you are on the beach, walking, and you see this man, hanging on a Cross as you draw closer.
He's nailed to it.
"what is THIS"... you think.
He is bleeding, his face is broken from the beating He took before they whipped Him until you could see His ribs.
Now He's nailed to this ... this...............tree.
Spikes... in His feet, in His Hands.. Crown of Thorns on His Head.
Blood is everywhere... as this gentle man is bleeding out.....
He's looking down at you, as you walk right up to him..... as He is "up there"..
Jesus calls you by your name.
You are stunned.
Something about Him......>He's looking into you.......you can feel His eyes, in your soul..
But, it feels like Love........this looking into you.
He says........ "Do you want to go to heaven"?
And you say.....>>"what is that"?
He says...>>>"its where i came from, and its where im going back very soon, and i want you to go with me and meet the Holy One who created all you see, including creating you.
He wants you to come to your real home with Me.
You feel..... elated. You feel, joyful.. peaceful... you feel LOVED. Something has happened in your heart, is still happening..... and you know that you can trust this good man.
Jesus says..... "i want you to believe that i love you, and that you can go with me today, and we will be in heaven , as you are going to die in just a little while, and i and my Father want you to be with us, forever...""
Its as if your heart has opened wide....like a little child who just BELIEVES what they believe..........and you say......>>"I believe you.........i believe".
Jesus smiles at you, the best he can, as His teeth are broken, bloody.
You smile back., happy., at peace.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now see that @Ernest T. Bass ??
Salvation is you the sinner, and Jesus the Savior, and believing by Faith.
That's it. That's the Gospel.
The rest is just the rest., a head full of Theology that blocks ouf the Light........so.... dont let it get in your way.
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
You recite a story that has no Biblical basis to it at all. Let's look at some actual BIble verses. Philippians 2 would be a good place:
"So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;"
"so then" refers back to the information Paul just gave them about Christ in how Christ Himself was "obedient unto death", v8. So then as Christ was obedient, man must be obedient to God also (Heb 5:9) as those Philippians had "always obeyed". Paul gave praise where praise was due and Paul gave them praise for their obedience and not condemnation. Paul did not falsely accuse them of trying to earn salvation by their own righteousness or accuse them of being legalists for their obedience as some today would.
"work out"....Paul did NOT say work FOR salvation for salvation cannot be earned (Lk 10:7-10). They were to work OUT their salvation to the finish by their continued obedience to God's will.
"your own salvation" shows man does have a role in his OWN salvation and that is by obeying God's will, hence salvation is not forced upon anyone against their will but must be accepted and one accepts salvation thru obedience to God just as those Philippians. Even God cannot help those who are unwilling to accept His salvation....God offers the cure for sin but man must be willing to accept and take the cure.
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