Another Premillennial absurdity

[Timtofly]

Do you literally believe Christ is coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
Do you literally believe the wicked will experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
Do you literally believe the wicked "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
Do you literally believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
Do you literally believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
Do you literally believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
Do you literally believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
Do you literally believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

If you believe this, then Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming.

It never states the earth is burned up, but the works only. Those birds at Armageddon are eating flesh on a scorched earth, but not on a non-existent earth. The earth is still there. Besides the burned up works happened earlier than 42 months prior to Armageddon.

Do you not understand that in Revelation 13, Satan is starting a kingdom from scratch? The 7th Trumpet is months after the 6th Seal. The 6th Seal is when all is burned to a crisp and the heavens dissolve.

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

You are missing the whole point that at the Second Coming they are hiding out. At the 6th vial they are marching out to the valley of Megiddo. Two totally different scenarios with a 42 month reign of Satan's AoD between the two events. But you, in your time travel scenario that has John living the last 1900 years 7 different times. Or dreaming it all, which is impossible since John was physically caught up like Elijah, Enoch, and Philip who were also not dreaming about their being caught up and transported through physical space. John was transported in time to the Day of Lord. Then John has to put it all in symbolism because first century readers would not understand modern day technology.

John is writing things down as we chat on line. Take it or leave it. I have a verse:

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

John will be about to write when they literally happen, so how can John be physically writing things down in a dream? You can believe that John dreamt he was writing. I will take this to say he was literally physically writing as you can state time is literally up a few verses later. You just have the wrong time being up. Creation is not finished. The Atonement Covenant is confirmed as complete and Daniel's 70 weeks are up. Adam's punishment of 6,000 years is up. You know that Atonement Covenant that redeemed all those souls under the alter? Now it is time for the Lord's Day. That 7th Day after Adam's 6 Days. Exodus 20.
We have been in the last 2 days of Adam's 6 day period. You just have to think bigger than 24 hours. 2 Peter 3:8. Yes Peter was literally telling people not to be ignorant. It was not a suggestion.

 

[WPM]

If you believe this, then Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming.

It never states the earth is burned up, but the works only. Those birds at Armageddon are eating flesh on a scorched earth, but not on a non-existent earth. The earth is still there. Besides the burned up works happened earlier than 42 months prior to Armageddon.

Do you not understand that in Revelation 13, Satan is starting a kingdom from scratch? The 7th Trumpet is months after the 6th Seal. The 6th Seal is when all is burned to a crisp and the heavens dissolve.

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

You are missing the whole point that at the Second Coming they are hiding out. At the 6th vial they are marching out to the valley of Megiddo. Two totally different scenarios with a 42 month reign of Satan's AoD between the two events. But you, in your time travel scenario that has John living the last 1900 years 7 different times. Or dreaming it all, which is impossible since John was physically caught up like Elijah, Enoch, and Philip who were also not dreaming about their being caught up and transported through physical space. John was transported in time to the Day of Lord. Then John has to put it all in symbolism because first century readers would not understand modern day technology.

John is writing things down as we chat on line. Take it or leave it. I have a verse:

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

John will be about to write when they literally happen, so how can John be physically writing things down in a dream? You can believe that John dreamt he was writing. I will take this to say he was literally physically writing as you can state time is literally up a few verses later. You just have the wrong time being up. Creation is not finished. The Atonement Covenant is confirmed as complete and Daniel's 70 weeks are up. Adam's punishment of 6,000 years is up. You know that Atonement Covenant that redeemed all those souls under the alter? Now it is time for the Lord's Day. That 7th Day after Adam's 6 Days. Exodus 20.
We have been in the last 2 days of Adam's 6 day period. You just have to think bigger than 24 hours. 2 Peter 3:8. Yes Peter was literally telling people not to be ignorant. It was not a suggestion.

Not so. There is one final future coming of Christ. It is wholesale in its destruction and climactic.

Just because two passages do not cover all the same details does not mean they are not describing the same event. Different Scriptures at different times focus in on different subject-matters. Sometimes the writer is talking about the elect. Sometimes he is talking about the wicked. Sometimes he is talking about both. Sometimes he is talking about the living. Sometimes he is talking about the dead.

Sometimes the writer is talking about earth. Sometimes about heaven. Sometimes about hell. Sometimes he is talking about the kingdom of God. Sometimes he is talking about the kingdom of darkness. Sometimes the writer is talking about the visible realm, other times he is talking about the invisible realm. Sometimes the writer is talking about God Himself. Sometimes the Bible is talking about Satan himself. Sometimes he is talking is talking about the angels. Sometimes he is talking about demons.

Sometimes he is talking about the Father. Sometimes he is talking about the Son. Sometimes he is talking about the Spirit. Sometimes he is talking about the beast. Sometimes he is talking about the false prophet. Sometimes he is talking about Satan's demons.

Sometimes Scripture is talking about Christ’s kingship. Sometimes it is talking about His priesthood. Other times it is speaking about His prophetic office. Sometimes it is talking about His Godhood. Sometimes it is talking about His manhood.

As you dive into the book of Revelation it is important to recognize that it is not chronological. It is a series of recaps. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

This is why it is so important to have a good understanding of the full counsel of God. This allows you to have an accurate, comprehensive and balanced perspective of truth.

The different parallels in Revelation show different aspects or camera views of the same game, a game where Jesus conquers Satan and his kingdom at every turn. Revelation is therefore a victorious book for the believer to read, contrary to how Premil interprets it. Premil is always lauding the power and influence of Satan during this intra-Advent period. Amil is always exalting the power, authority, influence and dominion of Christ and the Church as it brings the good news of Christ to the nations.

 

[Timtofly]

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

Some of these verses are prior to physical death, some after physical death. What is your point? The church is not the camp of the saints, in the normal reading as they are the ones physically resurrected from having their head cut off. Being beheaded was never, nor will be symbolic of spiritual birth. No church member can join God's family by cutting their head off. But God will resurrect those beheaded physically to live on the earth for 1,000 years.

They will then have a free ticket to get passed the GWT. If they are glorified then, is any one's guess. All Amil have is a theory that these represent people throughout the last 1992 years. But they reside in this physical camp of the saints when Satan deceives literal physical humans, literally consumed by a literal fire from a literal God out of a literal heaven. The problem with Amil's theory, is that these people are alive today, and have yet to be beheaded, much less, already resurrected.

 

[WPM]

Some of these verses are prior to physical death, some after physical death. What is your point? The church is not the camp of the saints, in the normal reading as they are the ones physically resurrected from having their head cut off. Being beheaded was never, nor will be symbolic of spiritual birth. No church member can join God's family by cutting their head off. But God will resurrect those beheaded physically to live on the earth for 1,000 years.

They will then have a free ticket to get passed the GWT. If they are glorified then, is any one's guess. All Amil have is a theory that these represent people throughout the last 1992 years. But they reside in this physical camp of the saints when Satan deceives literal physical humans, literally consumed by a literal fire from a literal God out of a literal heaven. The problem with Amil's theory, is that these people are alive today, and have yet to be beheaded, much less, already resurrected.

Martyrdom has been happening throughout this current period since the first resurrection. The saints are reigning with Christ since He defeated the grave 2000 years ago.

 

[Keturah]

Can we not take God at his word?
He said he world return to resurrect the dead in Christ and give immortal bodies to them and those alive @ his coming.

When God's wrath is emptied on the AC, the beast, the devil and the rejecters of salvation, then will the 1000 year reign of the Lord on earth begin.

Such a short time for man to live in peace for God when Satan is prevented from tempting and trying folks with sin.

All is not safe for the new flesh of the millennium. The heart is deceitful and it's imaginings are wicked and one last time b4 the LOF Satan will be loosed to try and steal souls from the creator to burn with him in everlasting fire !

Hard to visualize ALL THAT GOD SAYS IN HIS WORD..... AIN'T IT?

 

[WPM]

Can we not take God at his word?
He said he world return to resurrect the dead in Christ and give immortal bodies to them and those alive @ his coming.

When God's wrath is emptied on the AC, the beast, the devil and the rejecters of salvation, then will the 1000 year reign of the Lord on earth begin.

Such a short time for man to live in peace for God when Satan is prevented from tempting and trying folks with sin.

All is not safe for the new flesh of the millennium. The heart is deceitful and it's imaginings are wicked and one last time b4 the LOF Satan will be loosed to try and steal souls from the creator to burn with him in everlasting fire !

Hard to visualize ALL THAT GOD SAYS IN HIS WORD..... AIN'T IT?

Do you believe in the importance of biblical corroboration?

 

[jeffweeder]

Can we not take God at his word?

Strange that you didn't quote any of the word to back up your claims.

Can you accept that Jesus returns in vengeance to eternally separate the unbelievers and glorify the believers on that same day?

2thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

 

[Timtofly]

It is not nations that are judged but individuals. It is wrong to think otherwise. This is the error that Premil produces. Where are the ‘sheep nations’ or ‘goat nations’ spoken of by Premils? They don’t exist! They seem to have been created to sustain a school of thought. They certainly are not in this reading. There is no such thing as ‘sheep nations’ or ‘goat nations’ in Scripture. Could Premils name one righteous nation? Of course not! There is no such thing. Where are the righteous nations on this earth enforcing heaven’s plan and purpose? If there was one, every righteous human worth their salt should immediately move there. Whilst there are nations that implement righteous laws, no one’s eternal destiny depends upon what country they were born in or what passport they hold. That is absurd. The term “the nations” is simply used to describe everyone.

‘Nation 1’ doesn’t come up to the judgment seat of Christ and answer for its righteous or unrighteous acts followed by ‘Nation 2’. That would be ridiculous. Even the USA – that has a significant number of believers – could never be considered a righteous nation. Any nation that oversees the genocide of over forty one million unborn babies, that allows sodomy to be increasingly recognised as a legitimate relationship, that allows greed and corruption to continue at the highest echelons of politics and the financial system cannot be expected to be viewed as righteous and therefore automatically enter the kingdom of God after the second coming. In that case, reward and punishment would be determined according to nationality and not in regard to our individual heart toward the things of God.

The use of the term nations is used to describe the people of the world. Nations are made up of human beings that will all be brought to account on judgment day. The fact is, when Christ instructed the disciples to “go and make disciples of all nations, baptising” he didn’t mean that they could actually make a disciple of any particular given nation and/or baptize a whole physical nation. No. He meant that the advance of the Gospel and its accompanying discipleship would include all nations.

He is not judging nations. He is judging mankind from the nations. Anyway, the separation that occurs is not into numerous people groups, but two distinct spiritual groups – saved and lost.

• Is there anywhere in Scripture that talks about "resurrection days" (plural)?
• Is there anywhere in Scripture that talks about "judgement days" (plural)?

The Bible only talks about "the resurrection" (singular), never "the resurrections" (plural). That is a Premillennialist innovation. The Bible only talks about “the day of judgment” or "the judgment" (singular), never “judgment days” (plural) or "the judgments" (plural). That is a Premillennialist invention.

The whole point of nations is that it is on the earth. Jerusalem is the only place the term nations means what Scripture is saying. You avoid the fact it is in Jerusalem, by mocking how others point out it is nations that appear in Jerusalem. Of course the nation is not judged. Quite frankly it is God calling Israel out of the nations as individuals. The whole nation does not stand in judgment. That is a red herring argument.

No Gentiles are even being judged here in Jerusalem. These individual sheep and goats are those of Israel being judged. Only a remnant are sheep. Unfortunately the majority of Israel being called out will end up in the LOF. This chapter (Matthew 25) is given to Israel, not humanity as a whole, nor the church. None of the church are given redemption because of good works. Clearly good works is the metric to divide the sheep of Israel from the goats of Israel. And the use of the term nations means it is on earth in Jerusalem and Israel is being called out. In the book of Revelation this is the period of the 7 Trumpets. The camera angle is pointed at Israel after the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. Israel being the lost sheep scattered throughout every nation on earth.

Sorry but your "one size judgment fits all", can not work with Scripture. You can stop avoiding that Amil error. You can poke holes in the left behind series all you want, but you miss the whole point that Jesus is going to be on earth, and will gather humans to Jerusalem out of all the nations. That is what Matthew 25 points out. Not that all nations are judged at the GWT. There are no nations at the GWT either. Death and hell are emptied and those souls judged at the GWT. Two seperate judgments. One is about living humans prior to physical death. The other is about dead humans after physical death. Why do you keep avoiding the point that in Matthew 25:31, these people are not even physically dead yet? The sheep and goats are not resurrected from physical death. Matthew 25:31-46 is not Revelation 20:11-15.

Matthew 25 is the tribulation called Jacob's trouble. The church is removed pre-trib, because Jesus is already on the earth sitting on His glorious throne during the GT. So, yes, the church was removed while Jesus was on His way down. During the Trumpets Israel is removed. During the 7 Thunders the rest of those chosen by Jesus in Matthew 13 are removed by the angels. These are the remnant that live on the earth for 1,000 years. The sheep from Matthew 25. The wheat from Matthew 13. Not all humanity will be destroyed. If necessary Armageddon will be the means to end every last human in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The ark is the picture of these people being saved. The church are the sons of God removed before things go from bad to totally evil. But the sons of God removed from the earth go back to Enoch, hundreds of years before Noah. Enoch was not taken out the day the Flood came. But the church will be removed at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal.

 

[WPM]

The whole point of nations is that it is on the earth. Jerusalem is the only place the term nations means what Scripture is saying. You avoid the fact it is in Jerusalem, by mocking how others point out it is nations that appear in Jerusalem. Of course the nation is not judged. Quite frankly it is God calling Israel out of the nations as individuals. The whole nation does not stand in judgment. That is a red herring argument.

No Gentiles are even being judged here in Jerusalem. These individual sheep and goats are those of Israel being judged. Only a remnant are sheep. Unfortunately the majority of Israel being called out will end up in the LOF. This chapter (Matthew 25) is given to Israel, not humanity as a whole, nor the church. None of the church are given redemption because of good works. Clearly good works is the metric to divide the sheep of Israel from the goats of Israel. And the use of the term nations means it is on earth in Jerusalem and Israel is being called out. In the book of Revelation this is the period of the 7 Trumpets. The camera angle is pointed at Israel after the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. Israel being the lost sheep scattered throughout every nation on earth.

Sorry but your "one size judgment fits all", can not work with Scripture. You can stop avoiding that Amil error. You can poke holes in the left behind series all you want, but you miss the whole point that Jesus is going to be on earth, and will gather humans to Jerusalem out of all the nations. That is what Matthew 25 points out. Not that all nations are judged at the GWT. There are no nations at the GWT either. Death and hell are emptied and those souls judged at the GWT. Two seperate judgments. One is about living humans prior to physical death. The other is about dead humans after physical death. Why do you keep avoiding the point that in Matthew 25:31, these people are not even physically dead yet? The sheep and goats are not resurrected from physical death. Matthew 25:31-46 is not Revelation 20:11-15.

Matthew 25 is the tribulation called Jacob's trouble. The church is removed pre-trib, because Jesus is already on the earth sitting on His glorious throne during the GT. So, yes, the church was removed while Jesus was on His way down. During the Trumpets Israel is removed. During the 7 Thunders the rest of those chosen by Jesus in Matthew 13 are removed by the angels. These are the remnant that live on the earth for 1,000 years. The sheep from Matthew 25. The wheat from Matthew 13. Not all humanity will be destroyed. If necessary Armageddon will be the means to end every last human in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The ark is the picture of these people being saved. The church are the sons of God removed before things go from bad to totally evil. But the sons of God removed from the earth go back to Enoch, hundreds of years before Noah. Enoch was not taken out the day the Flood came. But the church will be removed at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal.

Again, you build your whole thesis on your faulty opinion of Revelation 20. That is it! You have nothing more.

Where in Matthew 25 does it say the judgment is in Jerusalem?

 

[Timtofly]

What are these sheep temporarily doing in these 1000 years?

The fact is they enter what was prepared from the foundation of the world, being without sin and death and feasting on the tree of eternal life.

The tree was not planted in the first week.

The earth was created to be enjoyed from it's foundation. These sheep are enjoying earth as God intended without sin and Satan around to deceive. You have the sin and death part removed correct. This is still current creation, because current creation was this earth created in Genesis 1:1. The NHNE created in Revelation 21 is not the heaven and earth from Genesis 1. Matthew 25 does not state they will enjoy the NHNE. They enter a restored creation, created thousands of years before the first century when Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse.

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

When God allowed Satan to tempt Eve, He already had this 1,000 years thought out after the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

You admitted you have nothing in Scripture to support your Pretrib error. Check mate!!! End of the debate. It is an extra-biblical man-made Jesuit doctrine you promote. The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

And from this post, all you have is false doctrine of man to base your Amil error on.

You complain Scripture is not used by Premils, then argue using false teachers as your point of reference. Obviously if Scripture is not working for you, you find some erroneous theology of dead people to make a point that has nothing to do with the posters in this thread you yourself started.

Stop avoiding the actual points.

There are judgments of those still alive. They are separate from the physical dead.

 

[Timtofly]

You avoided my simple question.

The whole discourse suggests otherwise. The goats are thrown into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
This is a clear reference to the GWT, when their names are not found mentioned in the book of life which is only opened at this judgment.

The sheep inherit what was prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Our inheritance is not temporary.


Rev 21
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true [they are accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy].” 6 And He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I will give [water] from the fountain of the water of life without cost.

7 He who overcomes [the world by adhering faithfully to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior] will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But as for the cowards and unbelieving and abominable [who are devoid of character and personal integrity and practice or tolerate immorality], and murderers, and sorcerers [with intoxicating drugs], and idolaters and occultists [who practice and teach false religions], and all the liars [who knowingly deceive and twist truth], their part will be in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Where in Matthew 25 does it claim the names of the goats were never written in the Lamb's book of life? Can you quote the verse?

 

[Timtofly]

There is only one judgment day. Rev 20 takes us back to the first resurrection of Jesus. There is only one reference to the GWT in Scripture . Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise [Gr. anistemi] in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ.

This is further impressed in the parallel portion in Luke 11:31, only with an additional example, saying, “The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro] in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall rise up [Gr. anistemi] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”

Here, the two main words used throughout the New Testament for resurrection are applied to the general resurrection that occurs on Judgment Day when the Old Testament time saints and wicked join the New Testament saints and wicked at the judgment. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day. There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.” The Greek word meta (3326) is described in Strong’s concordance as “a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; ‘amid’.”

Amillennialists therefore maintain that there is one general resurrection, of the just and unjust, at the second advent of Christ. The righteous then inherit the earth in an eternal state. Premils understanding of Revelation 20 conflict with numerous Scripture.

Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is no 1,000 years’ separation mentioned or hinted at in here.

There is one physical resurrection day in which there are two types of raising, (1) unto life, (2) unto damnation. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead (singular), both of the just and unjust.”

This verse speaks of a singular “resurrection of the dead” not multiple resurrections (plural) of the dead as the Premillennialist would try and intimate. The fact that Paul differentiates between the wicked and the righteous in no way proves that these are two separate resurrections coming at the end of two separate ages split by 1,000 years+ of history (filled with all the produce of the curse – sin, death and corruption). No, it simply demonstrates that there are two types of resurrection in the one final resurrection of the dead at the end. In fact, for Premils to insist on their concept is to force something into the passage that doesn’t truly exist. Scripture constantly distinguishes between the wicked and the righteous even though they are found participating in the same event at the same time. Why would anyone think it strange that the Holy Spirit would identify the two different parties that take part in the general “resurrection of the dead”? After all, it is a normal biblical procedure to distinguish between these two conflicting camps. Although to suggest that the identifying of these two distinct parties indicates two separate events at two separate times is illogical.

Once again, there is one physical resurrection day in which there are two types of raising, (1) unto life, (2) unto damnation.

If you claim Revelation 20:4 harkens back to the first century, you are contradicting your own point. There were thrones and a judgment back in the first century. You claim two different judgments yourself.

Read the verse again:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

 

[jeffweeder]

The tree was not planted in the first week.

Yes it was, along with the rest of the trees.... see bolded and underlined text below...,


Gen 2
4 This is the history of [the origin of] the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day [that is, days of creation] that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens— 5 no shrub or plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground,

6 but a mist (fog, dew, vapor) used to rise from the land and water the entire surface of the ground— 7 then the Lord God formed [that is, created the body of] man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being [an individual complete in body and spirit]. 8 And the Lord God planted a garden (oasis) in the east, in Eden (delight, land of happiness); and He put the man whom He had formed (created) there.

9 And [in that garden] the Lord God caused to grow from the ground every tree that is desirable and pleasing to the sight and good (suitable, pleasant) for food; the tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the [experiential] knowledge (recognition) of [the difference between] good and evil.

 

[jeffweeder]

Where in Matthew 25 does it claim the names of the goats were never written in the Lamb's book of life? Can you quote the verse?

All who are not in the book of life are thrown into the eternal fire.


Rev 20
This is the second death, the lake of fire [the eternal separation from God]. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

Matt 25
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

 

[WPM]

If you claim Revelation 20:4 harkens back to the first century, you are contradicting your own point. There were thrones and a judgment back in the first century. You claim two different judgments yourself.

Read the verse again:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:"

Believers reign with Christ now. They are kings and priests now.

 

[Timtofly]

Goats do not need to be mentioned. God has fixed a day for judgment of the living and the dead.

Act 17
30 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God’s purpose for their lives], 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task, and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

Acts 10:42
He commanded us to preach to the people [both Jew and Gentile], and to solemnly testify that He is the One who has been appointed and ordained by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing

1 Peter 4:5
But they will [have to] give an account to Him who is ready to judge and pass sentence on the living and the dead.

.
The book of life is only opened at the GWT and that's the time for throwing into the eternal fire.

These verses are not saying what you want them to say. You are conflating those spiritually dead with those physically dead.

Acts 17:30-31 is talking about those alive on earth at the Second Coming. No dead are resurrected in those verses.

Acts 10:42 is an ongoing phenomenon since the Cross, not a future single moment in time.

2 Timothy 4:1 is about separating those physically alive, some are redeemed in Christ, the rest rejected Christ up until that point. None are physically dead at the Second Coming.

1 Peter 4:5 is still talking about those spiritually dead, ie all those living who have not been born spiritually into the Family of God.

 

[Timtofly]

Everyone will be there. The opening of the book of life reveals the Sons and daughters of God.

11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them [for this heaven and earth are passing away]. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged according to what they had done as written in the books [that is, everything done while on earth]. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades (the realm of the dead) surrendered the dead who were in them; and they were judged and sentenced, every one according to their deeds.


Romans 8:19
For [even the whole] creation [all nature] waits eagerly for the children of God to be revealed.


20 For the creation was subjected to frustration and futility, not willingly [because of some intentional fault on its part], but by the will of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will also be freed from its bondage to decay [and gain entrance] into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been moaning together as in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only this, but we too, who have the first fruits of the Spirit [a joyful indication of the blessings to come], even we groan inwardly, as we wait eagerly for [the sign of] our adoption as sons—the redemption and transformation of our body [at the resurrection]. 24 For in this hope we were saved [by faith]. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait eagerly for it with patience and composure.

Creation will stop moaning and be restored at the Second Coming. But that will be over 1,000 years before the GWT event.

The Lamb's book of life is opened at the 7th Seal. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming. That is still 1,000 years before the GWT event.

No one, except the rest of the dead, are waiting for the GWT event:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

 

[Timtofly]

We shall all stand before the judgment throne of Christ.

Romans 14:10-12 (KJV) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

But only the DEAD, resurrected to damnation are judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Those who have done good in life will be resurrected to life.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Those who have done good are resurrected to life and will have immortal and incorruptible bodies when the last trumpet sounds. (see 1Cor 15:51-54) So when believers stand before God at the GWTJ we will be witnesses of the judgment of the dead but will not be judged by what is written in the books or to see if our names are recorded in the book of life. It will be only "the dead" who will not be found there. The dead whose names are not found written the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:11-13 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those "we" are only the redeemed in Christ.

Those "we" are not the dead who stand at the GWT. If you claim you are still dead in your sin, you have not been saved. You cannot claim a spiritual resurrection and still be the dead in Revelation 20:11-12

Those dead are the ones not resurrected according Revelation 20:5. There is no getting around two resurrections separated by a thousand years even if you think those 1,000 years is only 30 seconds. There is no way in any symbolic interpretation 1,000 is equal to 30 seconds. Those people had to have literally physically died prior to the start of the time called 1,000 years. Those dead did not wait 30 seconds. They waited 1,000 years.

 

[Timtofly]

Not so. There is one final future coming of Christ. It is wholesale in its destruction and climactic.

Just because two passages do not cover all the same details does not mean they are not describing the same event. Different Scriptures at different times focus in on different subject-matters. Sometimes the writer is talking about the elect. Sometimes he is talking about the wicked. Sometimes he is talking about both. Sometimes he is talking about the living. Sometimes he is talking about the dead.

Sometimes the writer is talking about earth. Sometimes about heaven. Sometimes about hell. Sometimes he is talking about the kingdom of God. Sometimes he is talking about the kingdom of darkness. Sometimes the writer is talking about the visible realm, other times he is talking about the invisible realm. Sometimes the writer is talking about God Himself. Sometimes the Bible is talking about Satan himself. Sometimes he is talking is talking about the angels. Sometimes he is talking about demons.

Sometimes he is talking about the Father. Sometimes he is talking about the Son. Sometimes he is talking about the Spirit. Sometimes he is talking about the beast. Sometimes he is talking about the false prophet. Sometimes he is talking about Satan's demons.

Sometimes Scripture is talking about Christ’s kingship. Sometimes it is talking about His priesthood. Other times it is speaking about His prophetic office. Sometimes it is talking about His Godhood. Sometimes it is talking about His manhood.

As you dive into the book of Revelation it is important to recognize that it is not chronological. It is a series of recaps. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

This is why it is so important to have a good understanding of the full counsel of God. This allows you to have an accurate, comprehensive and balanced perspective of truth.

The different parallels in Revelation show different aspects or camera views of the same game, a game where Jesus conquers Satan and his kingdom at every turn. Revelation is therefore a victorious book for the believer to read, contrary to how Premil interprets it. Premil is always lauding the power and influence of Satan during this intra-Advent period. Amil is always exalting the power, authority, influence and dominion of Christ and the Church as it brings the good news of Christ to the nations.

All opinions here.