Another Premillennial absurdity

[stormymonday]

1Thes. 5 appears to be directed toward unbelievers, NOT Christians because Paul says, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." In Revelation 3:1-3 the Lord returns as a thief upon a dead church.

The Lord returns as a thief only to unbelievers and a dead Church.

Revelations 3:1-3, “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write (dead church), ‘These things says He (Messiah) who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. therefore, if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.“

Messiah is clearly warning the dead church, as they are not watching for Messiah’s second coming. He proclaims, “if you (dead church) will not watch, I will come upon you (dead church) as a thief in the night, and you (dead church) will not know what hour I will come upon you (dead church).” Assuredly, Messiah is warning the “dead church,” which are the ones who are not watching that He will come upon them as “a thief in the night.”

In Jewish tradition, the high priest was known as “a thief in the night.” Why? During the night watch of the Temple, the high priest would check on the Temple guards to see if they were asleep while on duty. If they were, as punishment, the high priest would retrieve coals from the alter and light the guard’s garments on fire. Once the guards realized their garments were on fire, they would shed them and run naked through the Temple courts to get more garments. As a result, the high priest became known as, "a thief in the night" to those who were sleeping.” Now, with the understanding of the ancient tradition, let us explore the Scriptures to discover the correct context of “a thief in the night.”

 

[Taken]

I am going to take them one at a time. It will show the reader who takes Scripture literal or not and who is adding unto Scripture or not.

I

1. Do you literally believe Christ is coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2)?
2. Do you literally believe the wicked will experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
3. Do you literally believe the wicked "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?

Scripture says the Lord comes without warning.
You are saying Christ IS coming without warning.
Scripture says “sudden destruction”.
You say Christ IS Coming and when He Appears (earlier you said ALL,) now say THE wicked suffer sudden destruction.

Does your translation SAY “Christ” ? If so, what Bible is that?
Where is He coming FROM...and TO?

 

[Taken]

The Lord returns as a thief only to unbelievers and a dead Church.

I believe you have made a ACCURATE statement.

The “CONVERTED” are warned.
( I don’t say “Christians”, because many professed “Christians” are not Converted...and there are Converted Jews, who use the description; “messianic Jews”, not Christian.)

 

[jeffweeder]

1Thes. 5 appears to be directed toward unbelievers, NOT Christians because Paul says, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Paul is clearly informing believers that the sudden destruction accompanying the Lord coming like a thief shouldn't overtake us.
This means we are present on the earth when that day comes.
All you need to do to verify what Paul is trying to convey is turn the page in your bible to arrive at 2 Thess 1 ...,


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

The sudden destruction that they will not escape from is obviously a full and complete everlasting destruction.

 

[WPM]

Okay apparently your answer is “Jesus comes as a thief in the night”....
And apparently according to you when He comes there is sudden destruction...OF ALL the Wicked.


You have many holes in your tightly wrapped up view;

Instead of always voicing your faulty bias opinion. address the inspired text that exposes your teaching. Obviously the text forbids what you have been taught. The ball is in your court!

 

[WPM]

I own Bibles.


LITERALLY? Why do you feel the need to add your word LITERALLY?
I have ALREADY clearly expressed my view that ALL SCRIPTURE IS TRUE.

1 Thes 5:
[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Yes, I believe WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS...
Yes, I believe the Lord comes without warning.

Have you figured WHO “the Lord” is?
Have you figured WHAT “comes as a thief in the night means” ?
Have you figured WHERE “the Lord comes FROM...TO?” And WHEN?

1 Thes 5:
3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Yes, I believe WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS...
Yes, I believe WHEN “they are comfortably content”....”without warning” sudden destruction shall come upon THEM.

Have you figured out WHO “THEY are”?
Have you figured out WHAT “peace and safety” means?
Have you figured out WHEN “THEY say Peace and Safety”?
Have you figured out WHY “THEY are content in Peace and Safety”?

1 Thes 5:
3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Yes, I believe WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS...
THEY shall not escape.


Now are you going to continue to reveal your reputation and GASLIGHT saying I don’t believe everything I just said I believe?

Who then possibly populates your so-called 7-year trib and what qualifies then to miss the sudden destruction that the Bible says none will escape?

 

[stormymonday]

Who then possibly populates your so-called 7-year trib and what qualifies then to miss the sudden destruction that the Bible says none will escape?

That's the purpose of the sheep and goats' judgment - AKA the Judgment of Nations. That judgement is what determines who enters the Millennium. A remnant of Jews also enter to populate it..

 

[Taken]

Instead of always voicing your faulty bias opinion. address the inspired text that exposes your teaching. Obviously the text forbids what you have been taught. The ball is in your court!

Calling for your to have some resemblance of maturity.
I can absolutely speak what I believe, whether or not you like it or agree with it.
I have zero accountability for your depth or lack of understanding, or you speaking for me.
If you have issues with answering questions, that’s on you.
You making unfounded accusations is play school tactics.

 

[Taken]

Who then possibly populates your so-called 7-year trib and what qualifies then to miss the sudden destruction that the Bible says none will escape?

Is that your response to my questions....cuz, duh, it answered nothing.

Who is the population ON Earth during the Trib?
....Jews, Tribes of Israel, Gentiles.

Not accounted as the population, but HAVE a Presence ON Earth...
....Devil, unholy angels.

Not accounted as the population, but HAVE a Temporary Appearance ON Earth...
...Two witnesses, Lamb, 144,000 Tribesmen of ISRAEL

Qualification to be EXCEPTED (qualified) from sudden destruction DURING Tribulation:
...Not ON Earth
...ON Earth and God WITHIN
...ON Earth and Mark of God
...ON Earth and Holy
...ON Earth remnant Believers, not bodily killed.

 

[jeffweeder]

That's the purpose of the sheep and goats' judgment - AKA the Judgment of Nations. That judgement is what determines who enters the Millennium. A remnant of Jews also enter to populate it..

Jesus tells us what the purpose of the sheep and goat judgment is. It has no resemblance whatsoever to what you suggest.

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

 

[WPM]

That's the purpose of the sheep and goats' judgment - AKA the Judgment of Nations. That judgement is what determines who enters the Millennium. A remnant of Jews also enter to populate it..

It is not nations that are judged but individuals. It is wrong to think otherwise. This is the error that Premil produces. Where are the ‘sheep nations’ or ‘goat nations’ spoken of by Premils? They don’t exist! They seem to have been created to sustain a school of thought. They certainly are not in this reading. There is no such thing as ‘sheep nations’ or ‘goat nations’ in Scripture. Could Premils name one righteous nation? Of course not! There is no such thing. Where are the righteous nations on this earth enforcing heaven’s plan and purpose? If there was one, every righteous human worth their salt should immediately move there. Whilst there are nations that implement righteous laws, no one’s eternal destiny depends upon what country they were born in or what passport they hold. That is absurd. The term “the nations” is simply used to describe everyone.

‘Nation 1’ doesn’t come up to the judgment seat of Christ and answer for its righteous or unrighteous acts followed by ‘Nation 2’. That would be ridiculous. Even the USA – that has a significant number of believers – could never be considered a righteous nation. Any nation that oversees the genocide of over forty one million unborn babies, that allows sodomy to be increasingly recognised as a legitimate relationship, that allows greed and corruption to continue at the highest echelons of politics and the financial system cannot be expected to be viewed as righteous and therefore automatically enter the kingdom of God after the second coming. In that case, reward and punishment would be determined according to nationality and not in regard to our individual heart toward the things of God.

The use of the term nations is used to describe the people of the world. Nations are made up of human beings that will all be brought to account on judgment day. The fact is, when Christ instructed the disciples to “go and make disciples of all nations, baptising” he didn’t mean that they could actually make a disciple of any particular given nation and/or baptize a whole physical nation. No. He meant that the advance of the Gospel and its accompanying discipleship would include all nations.

He is not judging nations. He is judging mankind from the nations. Anyway, the separation that occurs is not into numerous people groups, but two distinct spiritual groups – saved and lost.

• Is there anywhere in Scripture that talks about "resurrection days" (plural)?
• Is there anywhere in Scripture that talks about "judgement days" (plural)?

The Bible only talks about "the resurrection" (singular), never "the resurrections" (plural). That is a Premillennialist innovation. The Bible only talks about “the day of judgment” or "the judgment" (singular), never “judgment days” (plural) or "the judgments" (plural). That is a Premillennialist invention.

 

[WPM]

Is that your response to my questions....cuz, duh, it answered nothing.

Who is the population ON Earth during the Trib?
....Jews, Tribes of Israel, Gentiles.

Not accounted as the population, but HAVE a Presence ON Earth...
....Devil, unholy angels.

Not accounted as the population, but HAVE a Temporary Appearance ON Earth...
...Two witnesses, Lamb, 144,000 Tribesmen of ISRAEL

Qualification to be EXCEPTED (qualified) from sudden destruction DURING Tribulation:
...Not ON Earth
...ON Earth and God WITHIN
...ON Earth and Mark of God
...ON Earth and Holy
...ON Earth remnant Believers, not bodily killed.

That is talking about the intra-Advent period. There is no rapture mentioned before that.

You still haven't produced anything. This shows what you are teaching is extra-biblical.

 

[WPM]

Calling for your to have some resemblance of maturity.
I can absolutely speak what I believe, whether or not you like it or agree with it.
I have zero accountability for your depth or lack of understanding, or you speaking for me.
If you have issues with answering questions, that’s on you.
You making unfounded accusations is play school tactics.

No. I brought one text to the table so that you would not sidestep it, and alas, you did your usual, avoid that one text. That is your MO. You are deluded with Pretrib. You cannot accept multiple Scriptures because they expose your error. It is impossible to enlighten an indoctrinated mind that does not want to know unless the Holy Spirit shows you.

That one text exposes Pretrib. But it is one of many. You tripped up at the first hurdle, as i suspected. The Scriptures are the biggest enemy of your doctrine.

 

[stormymonday]

Jesus tells us what the purpose of the sheep and goat judgment is. It has no resemblance whatsoever to what you suggest.

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Notice that this is when the son of man returns with his angels and rules from his throne - in Jerusalem - That's when he determines who does and doesn't enter the Millennial kingdom. The sheep enter the Millennium. The goats are destroyed.

 

[stormymonday]

It is not nations that are judged but individuals. It is wrong to think otherwise. This is the error that Premil produces. Where are the ‘sheep nations’ or ‘goat nations’ spoken of by Premils? They don’t exist! They seem to have been created to sustain a school of thought. They certainly are not in this reading. There is no such thing as ‘sheep nations’ or ‘goat nations’ in Scripture. Could Premils name one righteous nation? Of course not! There is no such thing. Where are the righteous nations on this earth enforcing heaven’s plan and purpose? If there was one, every righteous human worth their salt should immediately move there. Whilst there are nations that implement righteous laws, no one’s eternal destiny depends upon what country they were born in or what passport they hold. That is absurd. The term “the nations” is simply used to describe everyone.

‘Nation 1’ doesn’t come up to the judgment seat of Christ and answer for its righteous or unrighteous acts followed by ‘Nation 2’. That would be ridiculous. Even the USA – that has a significant number of believers – could never be considered a righteous nation. Any nation that oversees the genocide of over forty one million unborn babies, that allows sodomy to be increasingly recognised as a legitimate relationship, that allows greed and corruption to continue at the highest echelons of politics and the financial system cannot be expected to be viewed as righteous and therefore automatically enter the kingdom of God after the second coming. In that case, reward and punishment would be determined according to nationality and not in regard to our individual heart toward the things of God.

The use of the term nations is used to describe the people of the world. Nations are made up of human beings that will all be brought to account on judgment day. The fact is, when Christ instructed the disciples to “go and make disciples of all nations, baptising” he didn’t mean that they could actually make a disciple of any particular given nation and/or baptize a whole physical nation. No. He meant that the advance of the Gospel and its accompanying discipleship would include all nations.

He is not judging nations. He is judging mankind from the nations. Anyway, the separation that occurs is not into numerous people groups, but two distinct spiritual groups – saved and lost.

• Is there anywhere in Scripture that talks about "resurrection days" (plural)?
• Is there anywhere in Scripture that talks about "judgement days" (plural)?

The Bible only talks about "the resurrection" (singular), never "the resurrections" (plural). That is a Premillennialist innovation. The Bible only talks about “the day of judgment” or "the judgment" (singular), never “judgment days” (plural) or "the judgments" (plural). That is a Premillennialist invention.

Correct - nations imply people - ethnicity - tribes, etc. I didn't think I had to explain that. Most Christians know that nations indicate people.

 

[Taken]

That is talking about the intra-Advent period. There is no rapture mentioned before that.

You still haven't produced anything. This shows what you are teaching is extra-biblical.

I am not the Scripture “producer”...nor your personal researcher.
Not interested in made up modern terms....ie intra-Advent.

Your question was answered. I am not accountable for your lack of comprehension.
If you are stumped about WHO is on Earth during the last days Wrath and Tribulation...
Get a Bible, Read for yourself.

 

[jeffweeder]

Notice that this is when the son of man returns with his angels and rules from his throne - in Jerusalem - he determines who is a goat - and destroyed - and doesn't enter the Millennial kingdom. The sheep enter the Millennium.

What are these sheep temporarily doing in these 1000 years?

The fact is they enter what was prepared from the foundation of the world, being without sin and death and feasting on the tree of eternal life.

 

[stormymonday]

What are these sheep temporarily doing in these 1000 years?

The fact is they enter what was prepared from the foundation of the world, being without sin and death and feasting on the tree of eternal life.

No - the judgment of nations - separation of sheep and goats is NOT the GWT or the Judgment seat of Christ. Since this happens after the resurrection and rapture, the sheep are those who realized that his return actually took place and therefore believed and accepted Jesus as king. They enter and populate the Millennium. The goats are the ones who reject him as king.

 

[WPM]

I am not the Scripture “producer”...nor your personal researcher.
Not interested in made up modern terms....ie intra-Advent.

Your question was answered. I am not accountable for your lack of comprehension.
If you are stumped about WHO is on Earth during the last days Wrath and Tribulation...
Get a Bible, Read for yourself.

You cannot accept one single point it teaches. That is because it blows Pretrib apart. All the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes with sudden destruction. None shall escape. You make the Holy Spirit out to be a liar.

You reject the sudden destruction.
You reject that none shall escape.

Take that up with the Holy Spirit, not Amils. We are simply relaying the words of Scripture.

There is no sudden destruction. Billions escape in what you have been taught. You have an issue with the sacred text.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of tHis coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

 

[WPM]

No - the judgment of nations - separation of sheep and goats is NOT the GWT or the Judgment seat of Christ. Since this happens after the resurrection and rapture, the sheep are those who realized that his return actually took place and therefore believed and accepted Jesus as king. They enter and populate the Millennium.

Stop your avoidance! There's only one judgment day.

• Is there anywhere in Scripture that talks about "resurrection days" (plural)?
• Is there anywhere in Scripture that talks about "judgement days" (plural)?