26 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

One of the things NOT written in God's Word, which deceived followers of Amill believe, is the destruction of all wicked on the day of Christ's future return on the "day of the Lord". That includes 'their wrong belief' that day of Christ's coming also is the day of God's Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20, which assigns the wicked, hell, and death all into the "lake of fire". That is the ONLY way that the time of God's new heavens and a new earth time can manifest, with all the wicked, and hell, and even the concept death, destroyed.

The following is just one Bible Scripture, a major one, that reveals not all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future coming...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

That above Bible Scripture is for AFTER... Christ has returned to the Mount of Olives with all His saints, on the last day of this world, called the "day of the Lord". That's how that Zechariah 14 Chapter starts out.

There are major problems with attributing Zechariah 14:16-19 to the future as Premills do.

First, the idea that people will be required to go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord completely contradicts the permanent change that God made long ago when He made it so that people would not have to go to Jerusalem anymore to worship Him because He wants people to worship Him in spirit and in truth instead.

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

To think that God would change things back to how they used to be and make people come to Jerusalem to worship Him when it was made clear by Jesus that He wants people to worship Him in spirit and in truth makes no sense whatsoever and is not going to happen. God does not do senseless things like that.

Second, it also contradicts other scripture to believe that animal sacrifices would be reinstated in the future, which a literal, futurist interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19 would imply since keeping the feast of tabernacles involves performing animal sacrifices.

That is an absolute insult to the work of Christ on the cross when He established the new covenant with His shed blood and His "once for all" sacrifice while making the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete. Why would God reinstate animal sacrifices when scripture specifically teaches that their purpose was to foreshadow Christ's sacrifice? And why would God reinstate animal sacrifices when He said He doesn't want them and takes no pleasure in them? To think that God would ever reinstate animal sacrifices would require you to ignore or have no understanding of the following passage:

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

God forbid that animal sacrifices ever be reinstated because that would undermine Christ's sacrifice and make it as if it was not sufficient for all, even though it says He made His sacrifice for all. And what purpose could future animal sacrifices possibly serve when it's clear that their purpose was to foreshadow Christ's sacrifice?

These things all need to be taken into consideration when reading Zechariah 14 instead of trying to interpret it in isolation from the rest of scripture and trying to make the rest of scripture fit one's interpretation of the passage.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Brethren in Christ:

Beware of vain strategies like the above.

The Zechariah 14 Scripture as a witness proving the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 will be a LITERAL period is not the ONLY Bible Scripture that points to that future "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect. WPM of course knows this, but he doesn't want you... to know about it.

Yeah, just continue to make your claims without making any effort to actually address any of the points being made. You come across as being fearful of actually addressing those points. What are you afraid of? If what you believed is true then you should have no trouble specifically addressing his points, but you avoid doing that like the plague. You think anyone is going to be convinced by anything you say when everyone here can see that you avoid making any attempt to address the points being made in this thread?

 

[Davy]

The following Psalms 2 Scripture is where the idea of Christ literally reigning over the nations with His "rod of iron" comes from. And anyone who thinks that future "rod of iron" below is for Christ's Church, then they have succumbed to the 'stupidity' of Christ's enemies...

Psalms 2
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

The heathen nations rage against God and His Christ, thinking they can have power over God. That is obviously a thought of this present world time by Christ's enemies here on earth.

4 He That sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

But the reality is, God will eventually have those rebellious nations in derision. And at this point when this happens, it signals the future event of Christ's return and thereafter...

5 Then shall He speak unto them in His wrath, and vex them in His sore displeasure.

The Hebrew for that KJV word "vex" means 'affrighted, alarmed'. I refer to it as how 'shocked' those enemy nations will be when they see Christ coming in the clouds in the future.

6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.

That is NOT a spiritual metaphor friends in Christ. That is meant literally when Jesus Christ returns. He will reign from Jerusalem on earth, just like the Zechariah 14 Chapter reveals, and also because of His inheritance of David's EARTHLY throne. That is where that future "Zion" will be, on earth. The Revelation 20 Chapter refers to that area on earth as the "camp of the saints" after Christ's future return.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto Me, "Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee."

That of course is only about The Lord Jesus Christ as The Only Begotten Son of God. It means Jesus is God The Son, part of the 3-Person Godhead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Jews often have a very difficult time understanding that, however, that concept is even written in The Old Testament Scriptures so they have no excuse.

8 Ask of Me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

That is about The Father having given Christ to reign over all nations and peoples on earth, and it will begin at His future return, literally. That is what Bible Chapters like Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 are specifically about (as also those other Scriptures that I mentioned in my previous post.)

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV

There is the prophecy about Christ's future reign over all nations and peoples on earth with His given "rod of iron". In Revelation 2:10, Jesus promised His elect overcomers will reign with Him over the nations, on earth, and with that "rod of iron" also. That has NEVER happened yet to this day. It is a prophecy that ONLY will be fulfilled on the day of Christ's future literal bodily return.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

So my believing brethren who believe on The Father and His Son Jesus Christ had best decide before it's too late, and choose whether you want to have the right to enter those above "gates into the city" where the Tree of Life will manifest on earth, or be assigned with the wicked which will be outside those gates of the beloved city new Jerusalem during Christ's future "thousand years" reign.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I got an easier challenge for YOU.

Let's see YOU... quote ONLY 1st century Church fathers that showed belief on man's false Amil theory. And FYI, 1st century does NOT mean past the year 100 A.D.

Peter, a 1st century church father, taught Amil when He indicated that the earth will be burned up when Christ returns, which would obviously not allow for an earthly millennial kingdom to occur.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter also indicated that we look for new heavens and a new earth in accordance with the fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming, not a temporary earthly kingdom.

Paul was another 1st century church father who taught Amil as Peter did.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Like Peter, Paul did not allow for any unbelievers to survive the return of Christ as he made it clear that "sudden destruction" will come upon them when Jesus comes as a thief in the night and "they shall not escape".

And, like Peter, Paul also said that Jesus will be bringing fire down on His enemies when He returns.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Explain how He can rule over people who He will destroy at His second coming? That verse is quoted in Revelation 19:15 in relation to His second coming when He will smite (destroy) His enemies and tread them in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The Hebrew word translated as "break" in that verse is "rāʿa" and, like most words, it has multiple definitions. It most often means "to do evil", but obviously the word can't mean that in Psalm 2:9 since it's referring to something that Jesus does. But, when used in the context of breaking something it always means to literally destroy something.

Like in these verses:

Joshua 24:20 If ye forsake the Lord, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt (Hebrew: rāʿa), and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

Job 34:23 For he will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into judgment with God. 24 He shall break (Hebrew: rāʿa) in pieces mighty men without number, and set others in their stead. 25 Therefore he knoweth their works, and he overturneth them in the night, so that they are destroyed.

 

[WPM]

Brethren in Christ:

Beware of vain strategies like the above.

The Zechariah 14 Scripture as a witness proving the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 will be a LITERAL period is not the ONLY Bible Scripture that points to that future "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect. WPM of course knows this, but he doesn't want you... to know about it.

Like God's Word says, let every word be confirmed by at least 2 witnesses, and I have well done that about the future "thousand years" LITERL reign by Lord Jesus that begins on the day of His future coming:

Zechariah 14
Revelation 3:9
Revelation 22:14-15
Isaiah 24:19-23
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Psalms 2
1 Corinthians 5:5
Isaiah 2:4-21

And of course, the Revelation 20 Chapter which literally... declares Christ's future reign over His enemies, they're being made His footstool, will be a literal "thousand years" period. And Jesus said His elect overcomers will reign over those unsaved nations with Him, with His "rod of iron".

Once again, more avoidance and more false charges. That sums up the Premil position on this forum. And you wonder why no one takes you serious?

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20? I see no likeness. I will not hold my breath.

 

[WPM]

The following Psalms 2 Scripture is where the idea of Christ literally reigning over the nations with His "rod of iron" comes from. And anyone who thinks that future "rod of iron" below is for Christ's Church, then they have succumbed to the 'stupidity' of Christ's enemies...

Psalms 2
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

The heathen nations rage against God and His Christ, thinking they can have power over God. That is obviously a thought of this present world time by Christ's enemies here on earth.

4 He That sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

But the reality is, God will eventually have those rebellious nations in derision. And at this point when this happens, it signals the future event of Christ's return and thereafter...

5 Then shall He speak unto them in His wrath, and vex them in His sore displeasure.

The Hebrew for that KJV word "vex" means 'affrighted, alarmed'. I refer to it as how 'shocked' those enemy nations will be when they see Christ coming in the clouds in the future.

6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.

That is NOT a spiritual metaphor friends in Christ. That is meant literally when Jesus Christ returns. He will reign from Jerusalem on earth, just like the Zechariah 14 Chapter reveals, and also because of His inheritance of David's EARTHLY throne. That is where that future "Zion" will be, on earth. The Revelation 20 Chapter refers to that area on earth as the "camp of the saints" after Christ's future return.

Psalm 2:1-12 tells us: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

The first thing we note here is that the “King” is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 7 declares, “the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

In verse 4 we see the habitation of the King; how He “sitteth in the heavens.” In fact, verse 6 goes on to figuratively explain, “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.”

This interpretation is unequivocally confirmed in Acts 4:24-28, in the disciples prayer to God, where it records, “they (the disciples) lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said [in Psalm 2], Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

The New Testament writers have already located the fulfillment of it. They relate it to the current age. Your conflict is with the Book, again. Here this seemingly global prophecy is directly applied to Christ and to His first Advent, and to the different leaders of His day that opposed Him.

Paul relates the fulfilment of the Messianic enthronement to Christ’s current kingly reign in heaven. This truth is confirmed in Acts 13:22-23. Paul speaking to the religious Jews in Antioch says, concerning the promise of the Messiah and His rise to the throne of David, which was made unto their forefathers, “he (God) raised (aorist active indicative) up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man’s (David’s) seed hath God according to his promise raised (aorist active indicative) unto Israel a saviour, Jesus.”

This Davidic reference was used by Paul to demonstrate (to his Israeli audience) that the much-anticipated eternal Davidic reign (prophesied for centuries in the Old Testament) had arrived in the form of Jesus Christ and His glorious resurrection. Christ was indeed Israel’s anticipated “king” and “saviour.” Premillennialists are selective in their interpretation of passages like this. The reason being: they have to be! Passages like this negate their doctrine. Whilst they except Christ as Israel’s current “saviour,” they do not except Him was Israel’s current ruling “king.” However, this text exposes their objection. This passage proves that Christ is presented as already perfectly fulfilling the Davidic expectancy.

Paul adds in Acts 13:26-30, “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”

It is clear from this whole chapter that these misguided Jews still foolishly yearned for a coming Messiah who would one day reign upon a physical temporal earthly throne in Jerusalem, when He had in fact already come and rose to the heavenly Davidic throne. These earthly-minded Jews totally missed the hour of their visitation because of their false theology. They totally misunderstood who their Messiah was and what form His reign would look like. The sobering part of this text is, their misinterpretation of Scripture, and their false expectation, caused them to miss their Messiah. The fact is, He came to Israel and most Jews never even recognised Him for who He was. They had such a wrong perception of their own king.

Paul then enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3]” (vv 32-34).

This is talking about the resurrection, and what resulted through the great commission. Colossians 1:18 describes Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn [Gr. prootótokos] from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

This passage, which is clearly referring to Christ’s physical resurrection, describes Christ’s status after triumphing over death and the grave as the prootótokos or put another way first begotten from the dead.

Paul here applies the Old Testament Davidic promises in Psalm 2 and Isaiah 55 to Christ’s resurrection to the throne; and explains how such prophecies had already marvelously happened. Christ’s sinless life and His atoning death would’ve meant nothing if He hadn’t conquered the grave.

 

[WPM]

There are major problems with attributing Zechariah 14:16-19 to the future as Premills do.

First, the idea that people will be required to go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord completely contradicts the permanent change that God made long ago when He made it so that people would not have to go to Jerusalem anymore to worship Him because He wants people to worship Him in spirit and in truth instead.

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

To think that God would change things back to how they used to be and make people come to Jerusalem to worship Him when it was made clear by Jesus that He wants people to worship Him in spirit and in truth makes no sense whatsoever and is not going to happen. God does not do senseless things like that.

Second, it also contradicts other scripture to believe that animal sacrifices would be reinstated in the future, which a literal, futurist interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19 would imply since keeping the feast of tabernacles involves performing animal sacrifices.

That is an absolute insult to the work of Christ on the cross when He established the new covenant with His shed blood and His "once for all" sacrifice while making the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete. Why would God reinstate animal sacrifices when scripture specifically teaches that their purpose was to foreshadow Christ's sacrifice? And why would God reinstate animal sacrifices when He said He doesn't want them and takes no pleasure in them? To think that God would ever reinstate animal sacrifices would require you to ignore or have no understanding of the following passage:

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

God forbid that animal sacrifices ever be reinstated because that would undermine Christ's sacrifice and make it as if it was not sufficient for all, even though it says He made His sacrifice for all. And what purpose could future animal sacrifices possibly serve when it's clear that their purpose was to foreshadow Christ's sacrifice?

These things all need to be taken into consideration when reading Zechariah 14 instead of trying to interpret it in isolation from the rest of scripture and trying to make the rest of scripture fit one's interpretation of the passage.

The theme of the whole book of Zechariah concentrates totally upon the nature and happenings of the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It prophetically looks forward (500 years before) with anticipation to that ‘day of the Lord’ when the incarnate Son of God would arrive on this scene of time in the flesh. The book reveals, in amazing detail, profound aspects about the Lord’s earthly ministry. In fact, we find 20 different references to the phrase “in that day” in Zechariah – ALL referring to that notable first coming of Christ. Significantly, 7 of the aforementioned allusions are found in Zechariah 14, the chapter that most Premillennialists passionately present as evidence of a future millennial kingdom.

The book of Zechariah is saturated in profound detail pertaining to our Lord’s first advent in the whole of the Old Testament.

Zechariah 3:8-10 declares, “behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.”

Zechariah 6:12 predicted how Christ would be “The BRANCH” which would “grow up out of his place” and would “build the temple of the LORD” – His Church.

And describes how He would be a mediator King and Priest for His people. Zechariah 6:13 says, “he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”

Zechariah 9:9-10 predicted his entry into Jerusalem: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.”

Zechariah 11:12-13 predicted Judas and the price that he would pay to betray the Master, saying, “If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.”

Zechariah also graphically predicted Calvary in Zechariah 12:10, saying “I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

And in Zechariah 13:1, saying, “In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.”

And finally, Zechariah 14, the chapter that Premillennialists project, without any scriptural warrant, to a distant future notional millennial period, continues, in keeping with the theme of the previous chapters, saying, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one” (Zechariah 14:6-9).

Here is a remarkable symbolic prophetic account of the nature and purpose of the earthly Messianic ministry of the Lord at His first coming.

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ:

Notice that WPM's little speech above is an ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION, and not the type of interpretation which gives true Biblical understanding.

The specific "Zion" that Psalms 2 Scripture is referring to is the future Zion ON EARTH after Christ's future coming.

The Revelation Scripture reveals that "rod of iron" is SPECIFICALLY for the time AFTER Christ's FUTURE RETURN to this earth (See Revelation 2:25-27, Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15).

But WPM's false assumption is that "Zion" is a reference to heaven used by Christ's Apostles to show Christ having ascended to Heaven, like a Heavenly Zion.

NONE of Christ's Apostles ever refer to a heavenly "Zion" in written Bible Scripture. Paul refers to a heavenly Jerusalem above that is free, but he does not call it Zion. And we well know that per Revelation 21 the new Jerusalem in Heaven is going to DESCEND down to this earth from God in the future.

So there should be NO confusion of where Christ will sit as King upon that holy hill of future "Zion". It is a direct reference to the new Jerusalem ON EARTH when Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth, as shown in Acts 1 and in Zechariah 14, a literal return to earth. And the Revelation Scriptures I referenced about the "rod of iron" He will reign over the nations with is definitely for ONLY AFTER His future return.

 

[WPM]

Brethren in Christ:

Notice that WPM's little speech above is an ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION, and not the type of interpretation which gives true Biblical understanding.

The specific "Zion" that Psalms 2 Scripture is referring to is the future Zion ON EARTH after Christ's future coming.

The Revelation Scripture reveals that "rod of iron" is SPECIFICALLY for the time AFTER Christ's FUTURE RETURN to this earth (See Revelation 2:25-27, Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15).

But WPM's false assumption is that "Zion" is a reference to heaven used by Christ's Apostles to show Christ having ascended to Heaven, like a Heavenly Zion.

NONE of Christ's Apostles ever refer to a heavenly "Zion" in written Bible Scripture. Paul refers to a heavenly Jerusalem above that is free, but he does not call it Zion. And we well know that per Revelation 21 the new Jerusalem in Heaven is going to DESCEND down to this earth from God in the future.

So there should be NO confusion of where Christ will sit as King upon that holy hill of future "Zion". It is a direct reference to the new Jerusalem ON EARTH when Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth, as shown in Acts 1 and in Zechariah 14, a literal return to earth. And the Revelation Scriptures I referenced about the "rod of iron" He will reign over the nations with is definitely for ONLY AFTER His future return.

Again, it is time to move into the NT and let it interpret the OT. Jesus referred specifically to Psalm 118:22 when talking to the religious Jews of His day: “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:42-44).

Christ shows Psalm 118:22 and Isaiah 28:16 to be Messianic prophecies pertaining to Himself. By doing that, Christ was revealing the literal fulfilment of these figurative Old Testament predictions. One thing we should note as we consider Christ’s interpretation of this Old Testament passage is how He predicts the removal of Israel’s special place of favor among the nations (through their stubborn rebellion,) and the placing of God’s blessing upon the Gentile people (through their obedience). This is something that is seen in the various New Testament passages that refer to these Old Testament prophecies.

The issue at hand here is the fact there is more than just a natural Israeli application to Hebraic terms. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit repeatedly employs these appellations in a spiritual sense to describe the redeemed assembly – a company that includes countless Gentiles.

Psalm 118:22 tells us: “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.”

Christ showed the rejection of Himself, predicted in Psalm 118, related to the Jews rejecting Him during His earthly ministry. Even though “He came unto his own, and his own received him not” (John 1:11) Scripture makes clear: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12). Christ shows that the Gentiles would embrace Him and bring forth the necessary spiritual fruit that attends being true believers.

Isaiah 28:16 declares: “Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.”

This Messianic text shows us that Christ is located within Zion. He is a figurative “precious corner stone, a sure foundation” that has been laid in Zion. Those that embrace Him enter Zion – that spiritual place of rest and safety. The spiritual application is clear for all to see. Zion (Sion) represents the kingdom of God; it represents the heavenly realm. We see support for this in our Lord’s comments to the unbelieving Jews: “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

When the New Testament references these Old Testament prophecies and applies them to the new covenant era we see the spiritual sense of Zion (Sion) today. Zion/Sion in a New Testament sense is not a natural earthly location but a spiritual abode that the people of God enter. Christ is the cornerstone of a wider spiritual building located within Zion, which believers inhabit. It is a dwelling place that the Christ-rejecter cannot enjoy.

Romans 9:30-33 continues in the same vein: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

In the New Testament, Christ rules over spiritual Zion. All who embrace Him reside there and enjoy the spiritual blessings that accompanies intimacy with Him. Everything in both the Old and New Testament is pointing towards Jesus Christ. It is not about physical earthly land. It is not about the Middle East. It is not about a brick temple. It is about spiritual territory. It is about a heavenly kingdom. Earthly Zion means nothing today; heavenly Zion is everything. It is not about an earthly king, but rather a heavenly king. It is not about race; it is rather about grace.

“The stone which the builders rejected” (Psalm 118:22), “a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence” (Isaiah 8:14) or the “stumblingstone” (Romans 9:32-33) within Zion (Sion) is Jesus Christ. Scripture shows us that the rejection of that figurative stone was the rejection of our Savior. Paul, in Romans 9:30-33, shows natural Gentiles (heathens) accepting that stone, experiencing salvation, and entering into the favor of God. Natural Israel, on the other hand, is shown in Romans 9:31–32 to have stumbled at Christ the rock.

Romans 9:33 broadens Zion out to “whosoever believes in him shall not be ashamed.” This includes God’s people of all nationalities. Those who were hitherto aliens and strangers to Almighty God have now graciously “attained to righteousness” whereas natural Israel “hath not attained to the law of righteousness.” The spiritual application is obvious.

Through Calvary, the Gentile has been brought into a new realm, a new spiritual status, and therefore enjoys a new citizenship, with its consequential new benefits. Gentile believers unite with Jewish believers in inhabiting Zion. Salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

1 Peter 2:3-11 adds further evidence to our enquiry: “If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter does not relate Sion (Zion) to the natural realm and to ethnicity. It does not apply without salvation to natural Jews or to the physical nation of Israel, as modern-day Dispensationalists do. Quite the opposite! He shows Zion to be a spiritual place that all believers inhabit. God’s people are often referred to in Scripture in figurative terms. In this passage, they are specifically described in building terms. The Church is described as a spiritual structure incorporating spiritual building blocks – collectively known as His body – the temple. In 1 Peter 2:6, believers are described as being “lively stones” in God’s “spiritual house,” and as being a “holy priesthood” offering up “spiritual sacrifices.” This building is said to be located in “Zion,” with Christ as its “chief cornerstone.” These are the only sacrifices that are acceptable to God today.

The believer is now seated in heavenly places spiritually – in the true Mount Zion. Why? Because Christ now reigns there on David’s throne. Those that have the “fear of the LORD is his treasure” and experience the “strength of salvation.” There is no need for some supposed future millennium. This age fulfils every heavenly requirement for the fulfilment of Christ’s kingly reign.

 

[WPM]

Brethren in Christ:

Notice that WPM's little speech above is an ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION, and not the type of interpretation which gives true Biblical understanding.

The specific "Zion" that Psalms 2 Scripture is referring to is the future Zion ON EARTH after Christ's future coming.

The Revelation Scripture reveals that "rod of iron" is SPECIFICALLY for the time AFTER Christ's FUTURE RETURN to this earth (See Revelation 2:25-27, Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15).

But WPM's false assumption is that "Zion" is a reference to heaven used by Christ's Apostles to show Christ having ascended to Heaven, like a Heavenly Zion.

NONE of Christ's Apostles ever refer to a heavenly "Zion" in written Bible Scripture. Paul refers to a heavenly Jerusalem above that is free, but he does not call it Zion. And we well know that per Revelation 21 the new Jerusalem in Heaven is going to DESCEND down to this earth from God in the future.

So there should be NO confusion of where Christ will sit as King upon that holy hill of future "Zion". It is a direct reference to the new Jerusalem ON EARTH when Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth, as shown in Acts 1 and in Zechariah 14, a literal return to earth. And the Revelation Scriptures I referenced about the "rod of iron" He will reign over the nations with is definitely for ONLY AFTER His future return.

Hebrews 12:18 supports this contention, saying, “For ye are not come [plural perfect active indicative] unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.”

Hebrews 12:22 says, “But ye are come [plural perfect active indicative] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.”

Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant, Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. The mount that matters today is revealed as heavenly Sion, not physical Jerusalem that has rejected Christ for 2000 years. These references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

When a man or woman gets saved, they automatically enter the kingdom by being “born from above” (John 3:3). They obtain heavenly citizenship. Philippians 3:20 tells us, “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” (NKJV). Through the new birth God has “raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-6). He has “blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3).

Revelation 14:1-4 says, “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The first thing we note here is that it is speaking of the heavenly mount Sion. The second thing we note is that the 144,000 are “before the throne.” The third thing we note is that the 144,000 are the “redeemed from the earth.” This evidence proves that we are looking at the dead in Christ now in heavenly Jerusalem. The fourth thing we note is that this scene occurs well before the Second Advent not after. The fifth thing we see is that they are “the firstfruits unto God” not the last fruits as some would suggest.”

Zion, therefore, today, in God’s eyes, is not a geographical place located in modern-day Jerusalem. It is a spiritual place that the people of God of all races inhabit when they get saved. The condition for experiencing Zion is accepting Christ as Lord and Savior.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

NONE of Christ's Apostles ever refer to a heavenly "Zion" in written Bible Scripture. Paul refers to a heavenly Jerusalem above that is free, but he does not call it Zion.

You have revealed your ignorance once again.

Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm;......22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

This makes it very clear we have NOT come to the mountain that can be touched, but we have come to the spiritual and heavenly mountain that can't be touched which is the heavenly Mount Zion.

 

[WPM]

Brethren in Christ:

Notice that WPM's little speech above is an ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION, and not the type of interpretation which gives true Biblical understanding.

The specific "Zion" that Psalms 2 Scripture is referring to is the future Zion ON EARTH after Christ's future coming.

The Revelation Scripture reveals that "rod of iron" is SPECIFICALLY for the time AFTER Christ's FUTURE RETURN to this earth (See Revelation 2:25-27, Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15).

But WPM's false assumption is that "Zion" is a reference to heaven used by Christ's Apostles to show Christ having ascended to Heaven, like a Heavenly Zion.

NONE of Christ's Apostles ever refer to a heavenly "Zion" in written Bible Scripture. Paul refers to a heavenly Jerusalem above that is free, but he does not call it Zion. And we well know that per Revelation 21 the new Jerusalem in Heaven is going to DESCEND down to this earth from God in the future.

So there should be NO confusion of where Christ will sit as King upon that holy hill of future "Zion". It is a direct reference to the new Jerusalem ON EARTH when Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth, as shown in Acts 1 and in Zechariah 14, a literal return to earth. And the Revelation Scriptures I referenced about the "rod of iron" He will reign over the nations with is definitely for ONLY AFTER His future return.

Hebrews 12:18 supports this contention, saying, “For ye are not come [plural perfect active indicative] unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.”

Hebrews 12:22 says, “But ye are come [plural perfect active indicative] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.”

Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant, Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. The mount that matters today is revealed as heavenly Sion, not physical Jerusalem that has rejected Christ for 2000 years. These references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

When a man or woman gets saved, they automatically enter the kingdom by being “born from above” (John 3:3). They obtain heavenly citizenship. Philippians 3:20 tells us, “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” (NKJV). Through the new birth God has “raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-6). He has “blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3).

Revelation 14:1-4 says, “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The first thing we note here is that it is speaking of the heavenly mount Sion. The second thing we note is that the 144,000 are “before the throne.” The third thing we note is that the 144,000 are the “redeemed from the earth.” This evidence proves that we are looking at the dead in Christ now in heavenly Jerusalem. The fourth thing we note is that this scene occurs well before the Second Advent not after. The fifth thing we see is that they are “the firstfruits unto God” not the last fruits as some would suggest.”

Zion, therefore, today, in God’s eyes, is not a geographical place located in modern-day Jerusalem. It is a spiritual place that the people of God of all races inhabit when they get saved. The condition for experiencing Zion is accepting Christ as Lord and Savior.