The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics

[grafted branch]

Maybe you too believe something silly, for all I know, like even some Premils believe, that the sea meant in Revelation 21:1 is meaning literal seas? But if it isn't and surely it isn't, which would then mean large bodies of water still exist in the NHNE, but whoever heard of seas and oceans having zero lifeforms, such as fish living in them?

You know what’s funny is that those who claim there is literally no sea in NHNE, never claim there won’t be literal dogs in NHNE.

Revelation 22:15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I guess if we take everything literally there will only be pet cats in NHNE, no dogs allowed.

 

[WPM]

You know what’s funny is that those who claim there is literally no sea in NHNE, never claim there won’t be literal dogs in NHNE.

Revelation 22:15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I guess if we take everything literally there will only be pet cats in NHNE, no dogs allowed.

Can you read what people write instead of inventing silliness? Context and setting mean everything. We're looking at a very highly symbolic book that is saturated in figurative language. We know that these dogs are humans because that is the context. It is talking about the exclusion of reprobates from the age to come.

 

[WPM]

Commodianus, who wrote between AD 251 and 258, is the first orthodox writer to clearly and unambiguously state that there will be mortal beings in a future millennium that will join in marriage and enjoy sexual relations, producing offspring. But importantly, he limits this reality to the righteous alone (those “who overcame cruel martyrdom under Antichrist”).

From heaven will descend the city in the first resurrection; this is what we may tell of such a celestial fabric. We shall arise again to Him, who have been devoted to Him. And they shall be incorruptible, even already living without death. And neither will there be any grief nor any groaning in that city. They shall come also who overcame cruel martyrdom under Antichrist, and they themselves live for the whole time, and receive blessings because they have suffered evil things; and they themselves marrying, beget for a thousand years. There are prepared all the revenues of the earth, because the earth renewed without end pours forth abundantly. Therein are no rains; no cold comes into the golden camp. No sieges as now, nor rapines, nor does that city crave the light of a lamp. It shines from its Founder. Moreover, Him it obeys; in breadth 12,000 furlongs and length and depth. It levels its foundation in the earth, but it raises its head to heaven. In the city before the doors, moreover, sun and moon shall shine; he who is evil is hedged up in torment, for the sake of the nourishment of the righteous. But from the thousand years God will destroy all those evils (The Instructor, Chapter 46).​

Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to teach that the wicked populate a future millennial kingdom. He is also the first to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, whereupon he will use his baleful influence successfully on the wicked who supposedly during Satan’s little season. Victorinus wrote mainly around AD 270. Victorinus concisely submits:

And the scarlet devil is imprisoned and all his fugitive angels in the Tartarus of Gehenna at the coming of the Lord; no one is ignorant of this. And after the thousand years he is released, because of the nations which will have served Antichrist (Revelation commentary: 20.1).​

This is the sum total of information we have on this supposed future uprising. Victorinus is markedly vague and succinct on this matter. He doesn’t elaborate any more on his position. This is the totality of his surviving views. While Victorinus makes a passing comment about Satan being released, “because of the nations which will have served Antichrist,” he didn’t expand and delineate their activity, numbers, location and influence.

His comments are ambiguous to say the least. This is issue that the early Chiliast clearly felt uncomfortable with. Surely, he is not saying that “the nations which will have served Antichrist” inherit and then overrun a future millennial earth. Is he referring to a retrospective cause for Satan’s release? It is so hard to say. We have so little to go on.

Lactantius would later add more meat on the bones. He was from Africa and is the first to go into any sizeable and real recognizable detail on the subject. His main work – the Epitome of the Divine Institutes – was believed to have been first published between AD 304 and AD 311. It is amazing, allowing for the amount of Chiliast writings we still possess, for there to be such a dearth of detail up until Lactantius in the late 3rd century. In his writings, he first of all describes Satan’s binding and the reason for such:

They who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges. But the nations shall not be entirely extinguished, but some shall be left as a victory for God, that they may be the occasion of triumph to the righteous, and may be subjected to perpetual slavery. About the same time also the prince of the devils, who is the contriver of all evils, shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned during the thousand years of the heavenly rule in which righteousness shall reign in the world, so that he may contrive no evil against the people of God (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter XXIV).​

He continues:

We have said, a little before, that it will come to pass at the commencement of the sacred reign, that the prince of the devils will be bound by God. But he also, when the thousand years of the kingdom, that is, seven thousand of the world, shall begin to be ended, will be loosed afresh, and being sent forth from prison, will go forth and assemble all the nations, which shall then be trader the dominion of the righteous, that they may make war against the holy city; and there shall be collected together from all the world an innumerable company of the nations, and shall besiege and surround the city. Then the last anger of God shall come upon the nations, and shall utterly destroy them; and first He shall shake the earth most violently, and by its motion the mountains of Syria shall be rent, and the hills shall sink down precipitously, and the walls of all cities shall fall, and God shall cause the sun to stand, so that he set not for three days, and shall set it on fire; and excessive heat and great burning shall descend upon the hostile and impious people, and showers of brim stone, and hailstones, and drops of fire; and their spirits shall melt through the heat, and their bodies shall be bruised by the hail, and they shall smite one another with the sword. The mountains shall be filled with carcasses, and the plains shall be covered with bones; but the people of God during those three days shall be concealed under caves of the earth, until the anger of God against the nations and the last judgment shall be ended (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter XXVI).​

Here, the evil one, is depicted as gathering the nations together at the end of a forthcoming millennium to launch and assault upon the people of God. He adds

When the thousand years shall be fulfilled, and the prince of the demons loosed, the nations will rebel against the righteous, and an innumerable multitude will come to storm the city of the saints. Then the last judgment of God will come to pass against the nations (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter LXXII).​

One of the most contradictory early Church writers is Lactantius from Africa.

His main work – the Epitome of the Divine Institutes – was believed to have been first published between AD 304 and AD 311 (earlychristianwritings.com). His confusion may be explained by the fact that he relied heavily upon the writings of the pagan Sibyl prophetesses in his works. In one breath he seems to genuinely want to have a perfect earth that has been purged from the wicked and all wickedness but in the next breath, a few chapters later, Lactantius seems to be teaching the opposite. Whether this was necessitated to accommodate the teaching of Sibyl writings or whether they aligned with what he thought is not clear. His prominent mentioning of them in his writings reveals a deep dependence upon their teaching. This is seen in these comments:

Then they who shall be alive in their bodies shall not die, but during those thousand years shall produce an infinite multitude, and their offspring shall be holy, and beloved by God; but they who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges. But the nations shall not be entirely extinguished, but some shall be left as a victory for God, that they may be the occasion of triumph to the righteous, and may be subjected to perpetual slavery (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter 24).​

This is where the orthodox roots of early Premillennialism manifest. Allowance is finally made for the wicked and Satan to populate the earth that follows the second coming. Up until now that was rejected.

 

[grafted branch]

Can you read what people write instead of inventing silliness? Context and setting mean everything. We're looking at a very highly symbolic book that is saturated in figurative language. We know that these dogs are humans because that is the context. It is talking about the exclusion of reprobates from the age to come.

Sure, I can read what others write, I can also read what’s written in the Bible. I take it you think Revelation 21:1 means there is no literal sea in NHNE. Let’s take a look at what is written in the Bible concerning a literal sea.

In Genesis 1:10 God gathered together the waters, called it seas, and said it was good. The literal sea is good. In Matthew 7:11 we have this statement “how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him”. From Matthew 24:35 heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away.

Conclusion, in NHNE everyone will have the words of Gods, everyone will know that the literal sea is good, and everyone will know that if they ask the Father He will give them good things. If NHNE doesn’t have a literal sea then nobody is asking the Father for that good thing. That doesn’t seem very likely now does it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure, I can read what others write, I can also read what’s written in the Bible. I take it you think Revelation 21:1 means there is no literal sea in NHNE. Let’s take a look at what is written in the Bible concerning a literal sea.

In Genesis 1:10 God gathered together the waters, called it seas, and said it was good. The literal sea is good. In Matthew 7:11 we have this statement “how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him”. From Matthew 24:35 heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away.

Conclusion, in NHNE everyone will have the words of Gods, everyone will know that the literal sea is good, and everyone will know that if they ask the Father He will give them good things. If NHNE doesn’t have a literal sea then nobody is asking the Father for that good thing. That doesn’t seem very likely now does it.

This is strange reasoning. Despite calling everything He created on the earth good, God destroyed the earth with a flood long ago. So, using the reasoning you're using here, you must think He shouldn't have done that. You apparently think that God can't change things from how they were in the beginning when He created everything even though He has already done that once.

 

[grafted branch]

This is strange reasoning. Despite calling everything He created on the earth good, God destroyed the earth with a flood long ago. So, using the reasoning you're using here, you must think He shouldn't have done that. You apparently think that God can't change things from how they were in the beginning when He created everything even though He has already done that once.

Everything was good until the fall of man.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Everything was good until the fall of man.

That's right. So, think about that in relation to what you're saying about the sea. Using the logic you're using about the sea, you'd have to conclude that it was a mistake for God to flood the earth in Noah's day since your logic says He would not destroy anything He created that he called good in the beginning, such as the sea.

 

[grafted branch]

That's right. So, think about that in relation to what you're saying about the sea. Using the logic you're using about the sea, you'd have to conclude that it was a mistake for God to flood the earth in Noah's day since your logic says He would not destroy anything He created that he called good in the beginning, such as the sea.

I’m not arguing against the OHOE sea being destroyed on the last day, I’m arguing against Revelation 21:1 meaning there is no literal sea in NHNE.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m not arguing against the OHOE sea being destroyed on the last day, I’m arguing against Revelation 21:1 meaning there is no literal sea in NHNE.

But, not convincingly at all. Your logic is contradictory, as I've shown.

Also, how can you think the NHNE is already here when you acknowledge that the OHOE is still here until the last day comes in the future? The NHNE only comes about after the OHOE passes away.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

You seem to have no understanding of this verse whatsoever.

 

[grafted branch]

But, not convincingly at all. Your logic is contradictory, as I've shown.

Also, how can you think the NHNE is already here when you acknowledge that the OHOE is still here until the last day comes in the future? The NHNE only comes about after the OHOE passes away.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

You seem to have no understanding of this verse whatsoever.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

If there is currently no NHNE, then where do you suppose the heavenly Jerusalem is? Is it part of the OHOE that will be destroyed?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

If there is currently no NHNE, then where do you suppose the heavenly Jerusalem is? Is it part of the OHOE that will be destroyed?

Can you please address what I said first before I address what you said here. Address what it says in Revelation 21:1 where it indicates that the NHNE does not come until the OHOE passes away first. Once you address that then I will address what you said here.

 

[grafted branch]

Can you please address what I said first before I address what you said here. Address what it says in Revelation 21:1 where it indicates that the NHNE does not come until the OHOE passes away first. Once you address that then I will address what you said here.

Revelation 21:1 states that John saw the NHNE when the OHOE had passed, then in vs 2 he sees new Jerusalem coming down. Revelation 21:1 doesn’t preclude NHNE from existing prior to OHOE being destroyed.

In fact it took six days plus one day to rest to create OHOE so it would be reasonable to think it also takes seven days to create NHNE. John 14:2 I go to prepare a place for you.

Ok, how about addressing post #50?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 21:1 states that John saw the NHNE when the OHOE had passed, then in vs 2 he sees new Jerusalem coming down. Revelation 21:1 doesn’t preclude NHNE from existing prior to OHOE being destroyed.

Yes, it does. It clearly indicates that the NHNE doesn't come to be until the OHOE is passed away first. That means there is no NHNE until the OHOE is passed away. You're not even addressing what the text actually says.

In fact it took six days plus one day to rest to create OHOE so it would be reasonable to think it also takes seven days to create NHNE. John 14:2 I go to prepare a place for you.

I highly doubt it will take God seven days to create the NHNE, but let's say it will take that long. How does that change my point? It still would be the case that the NHNE would not exist until the OHOE passes away first.

Ok, how about addressing post #50?

Not until you stop sidestepping what the text says in Revelation 21:1 and you actually address it. Once you do that, then we can move on to post #50.

 

[WPM]

Revelation 21:1 states that John saw the NHNE when the OHOE had passed, then in vs 2 he sees new Jerusalem coming down. Revelation 21:1 doesn’t preclude NHNE from existing prior to OHOE being destroyed.

In fact it took six days plus one day to rest to create OHOE so it would be reasonable to think it also takes seven days to create NHNE. John 14:2 I go to prepare a place for you.

Ok, how about addressing post #50?

This is all carnal reasoning. You don't seem to get it.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes, it does. It clearly indicates that the NHNE doesn't come to be until the OHOE is passed away first. That means there is no NHNE until the OHOE is passed away. You're not even addressing what the text actually says.

I’m in the heavenly Jerusalem which is in NHNE. Since you don’t acknowledge it currently exists, I will pray for you.

 

[grafted branch]

This is all carnal reasoning. You don't seem to get it.

You are absolutely right, I don’t get the Amil view of NHNE.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m in the heavenly Jerusalem which is in NHNE. Since you don’t acknowledge it currently exists, I will pray for you.

Nowhere does scripture say that being spiritually in the heavenly Jerusalem means you are also spiritually in the NHNE. So, you are believing something that does not come from scripture, but instead comes from your imagination.

I am looking forward to the NHNE in fulfillment of the promise of Jesus's second coming when He will burn up and renew the OHOE, resulting in the NHNE (2 Peter 3:10-13). You deny that the NHNE exists only after the OHOE passes away, as Revelation 21:1 indicates. So, I will pray for you that God will convict you so that you stop denying what scripture clearly teaches.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are absolutely right, I don’t get the Amil view of NHNE.

He's also right that you use carnal reasoning. You do what so many people here do, which is that you interpret one verse (Hebrews 12:22) in a way that contradicts other verses (Revelation 21:1, 2 Peter 3:10-13). That's unwise. You need to be able to reconcile all of these verses together without causing any contradictions, but that doesn't seem to matter to you.

 

[WPM]

You are absolutely right, I don’t get the Amil view of NHNE.

If you did, it might help you.

 

[grafted branch]

If you did, it might help you.

Well, if you think it would benefit me to get a deeper understanding of the Amil view of NHNE, then how about we start with the Amil interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:17.

2 Corinthians 5:17(NIV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

If the new creation isn’t NHNE, then what is it?