The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics

[WPM]

LOL...Amils try to spin history by some convoluted misinterpretation of scripture. They even try to spin what the ECFs believed!

Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)​

• In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin explicitly states:
• He acknowledges that not all Christians agreed with this view, even in his time, but he presents it as orthodox and reasonable.

---

Irenaeus (c. 130–202 AD)​

• In Against Heresies, especially Book 5, he provides a detailed chiliastic vision.
• He connects the promise of the millennium to God’s covenantal promises and the renewal of creation.
• He sees the millennium as a time of restored paradise, where the righteous enjoy blessings on earth before the final judgment and the eternal state

You can still rejoice however, you have the RCC and numerous popes on your side...LOL

I will ignore your insults. I will keep to the issues.

There's nothing that you are quoting that disagrees with what I said. The Chiliasts believed in the future thousand years, but it was perfect and pristine. You fail to see that it was not polluted with all the corruption you force into it.

Justin Martyr:

[T]he serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 45).

He further states in another work:

For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils (1st Apology, Chapter LII).

He adds:

[Y]ou hesitate to confess that He is Christ, as the Scriptures and the events witnessed and done in His name prove, perhaps for this reason, lest you be persecuted by the rulers, who, under the influence of the wicked and deceitful spirit, the serpent, will not cease putting to death and persecuting those who confess the name of Christ until He come again, and destroy them all, and render to each his deserts (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 39).

Irenaeus agrees with Justin:

There shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, L.).
He continues:

The ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire (Against Heresies Book I, Chapter X, 1 – Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world).

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170 – 236) states:

“Until the Ancient of days come." That is, when at length the Judge of judges and the King of kings comes from heaven, who shall subvert the whole dominion and power of the adversary, and shall consume all with the eternal fire of punishment. But to His servants, and prophets, and martyrs, and to all who fear Him, He will give an everlasting kingdom; that is, they shall possess the endless enjoyment of good (Fragments on Daniel: Chap. VII.22).

He further explains:

[A]s they wait for the righteous Judge … Then the righteous shall shine forth like the sun, while the wicked shall be shown to be mute and gloomy. For both the righteous and the wicked shall be raised incorruptible: the righteous, to be honoured eternally, and to taste immortal joys; and the wicked, to be punished in judgment eternally … Then shall the son of perdition be brought forward, to wit, the accuser, with his demons and with his servants, by angels stern and inexorable. And they shall be given over to the fire that is never quenched, and to the worm that never sleeps, and to the outer darkness.

He continues:

For the people of the Hebrews shall see Him in human form, as He appeared to them when He came by the holy Virgin in the flesh, and as they crucified Him. And He will show them the prints of the nails in His hands and feet, and His side pierced with the spear, and His head crowned with thorns, and His honourable cross. And once for all shall the people of the Hebrews see all these things, and they shall mourn and weep, as the prophet exclaims, They shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and there shall be none to help them or to pity them, because they repented not, neither turned aside from the wicked way. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment with the demons and the accuser (On the End of the World, 38-40).

 

[WPM]

• He sees the millennium as a time of restored paradise, where the righteous enjoy blessings on earth before the final judgment and the eternal state

This is the complete opposite to the modern day Premillennial expectation - which is another age like our own full of all the bondage of corruption.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I will ignore your insults. I will keep to the issues.

There's nothing that you are quoting that disagrees with what I said. The Chiliasts believed in the future thousand years, but it was perfect and pristine. You fail to see that it was not polluted with all the corruption you force into it.

Justin Martyr:

[T]he serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 45).

He further states in another work:

For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils (1st Apology, Chapter LII).

He said at Christ's second coming that He "shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils". Wouldn't that mean he believed that Revelation 20:10-15 would be fulfilled when Christ comes again? Yet, I assume that he believed that passage would be fulfilled a thousand years (plus Satan's little season) after His return? Did they believe some things that contradicted other things they believed?

 

[WPM]

He said at Christ's second coming that He "shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils". Wouldn't that mean he believed that Revelation 20:10-15 would be fulfilled when Christ comes again? Yet, I assume that he believed that passage would be fulfilled a thousand years (plus Satan's little season) after His return? Did they believe some things that contradicted other things they believed?

The strange thing is: none of the early Chiliasts mention, teach or recognize any corruption, Satan or evil entering their future millennium. It is perfect and pristine (just what all Premils would want). Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to teach that the wicked populate a future millennial kingdom. He is also the first to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, whereupon he will use his baleful influence successfully on the wicked who supposedly during Satan’s little season. Victorinus wrote mainly around AD 270. Victorinus concisely submits:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is the complete opposite to the modern day Premillennial expectation - which is another age like our own fall of all the bondage of corruption.

Right. They, like Amils, believed there would be no sin and death in the time immediately following Christ's return, unlike modern day Premills. It's ridiculous for modern day Premils to associate their doctrine with Chiliasm.

 

[WPM]

Right. They, like Amils, believed there would be no sin and death in the time immediately following Christ's return, unlike modern day Premills. It's ridiculous for modern day Premils to associate their doctrine with Chiliasm.

The unbelieving Jews believed in a future millennium, but it was not one where Satan was able to overrun it at the end. This probably colored early Chiliasts. Although, not surprisingly, none of the early Chiliasts believed in the rebuilding of the temple, the return of blood sacrifices, or none of that nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The strange thing is: none of the early Chiliasts mention, teach or recognize any corruption, Satan or evil entering their future millennium. It is perfect and pristine (just what all Premils would want). Victorinus was the first of the orthodox writers to teach that the wicked populate a future millennial kingdom. He is also the first to detail Satan’s release after a literal thousand years in the future, whereupon he will use his baleful influence successfully on the wicked who supposedly during Satan’s little season. Victorinus wrote mainly around AD 270. Victorinus concisely submits:

Right. But, I'm wondering about what those early Chiliasts like Justin Martyr believed in relation to Revelation 20:10-15. Justin Martyr said Jesus would cast "the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils" at His second coming, right? That is describing Revelation 20:10-15. So, why did he and the other early Chiliasts pre AD 270 not believe that Revelation 20:10-15 is fulfilled at the second coming of Christ?

 

[WPM]

Right. But, I'm wondering about what those early Chiliasts like Justin Martyr believed in relation to Revelation 20:10-15. Justin Martyr said Jesus would cast "the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils" at His second coming, right? That is describing Revelation 20:10-15. So, why did he and the other early Chiliasts pre AD 270 not believe that Revelation 20:10-15 is fulfilled at the second coming of Christ?

They did. See above.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They did. See above.

Okay. So, they believed that Revelation 20:10-15 would occur before Revelation 20:1-9, which makes no sense at all.

I see that you said "The unbelieving Jews believed in a future millennium, but it was not one where Satan was able to overrun it at the end" and Chiliasts were influenced by that belief.

What was their understanding of Satan's little season then? Did they just act like verses 7 to 9 didn't exist? I'm kidding. But, some of their beliefs made no sense just like the beliefs of the modern day Premills who try to associate with them.

 

[WPM]

Okay. So, they believed that Revelation 20:10-15 would occur before Revelation 20:1-9, which makes no sense at all.

I see that you said "The unbelieving Jews believed in a future millennium, but it was not one where Satan was able to overrun it at the end" and Chiliasts were influenced by that belief.

What was their understanding of Satan's little season then? Did they just act like verses 7 to 9 didn't exist? I'm kidding. But, some of their beliefs made no sense just like the beliefs of the modern day Premills who try to associate with them.

The Chiliast ECFs were all over the place. They do not reference Rev 20. I think only one of them does that I remember. But not to preach Premil, but Chiliasm.

 

[WPM]

LOL...Amils try to spin history by some convoluted misinterpretation of scripture. They even try to spin what the ECFs believed!

Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)​

• In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin explicitly states:
• He acknowledges that not all Christians agreed with this view, even in his time, but he presents it as orthodox and reasonable.

---

Irenaeus (c. 130–202 AD)​

• In Against Heresies, especially Book 5, he provides a detailed chiliastic vision.
• He connects the promise of the millennium to God’s covenantal promises and the renewal of creation.
• He sees the millennium as a time of restored paradise, where the righteous enjoy blessings on earth before the final judgment and the eternal state

You can still rejoice however, you have the RCC and numerous popes on your side...LOL

1. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Satan being cast down from heaven at the second coming?
2. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the binding of Satan at the second coming?
3. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?
4. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Satan survives the second coming?
5. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years after the second coming?
6. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked populate a future millennial earth?
7. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that the curse continues unabated on a future millennial earth?
8. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that mortals will populate future millennial earth?
9. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that marriage and procreation continue on on a future millennial earth?
10. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that sin continues on in a future millennial earth?
11. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that death continues on in a future millennial earth?
12. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that corruption continues unabated on in a future millennial earth?
13. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus will rule over his enemies for a thousand years after the second coming?
14. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the saints rule over mortal humanity for a thousand years?
15. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the glorified Church will rule in the Millennial era, causing all on earth to submit to the rule of Christ at that time?
16. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the restoring of Israel back to her old covenant theocratic status in a future millennium?
17. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Israel retaking her ancient borders in a future millennium?
18. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan will be released from the bottomless pit 1000 years after the second coming?
19. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as the sand of the sea?
20. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
21. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
22. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second (or 3rd for Pretribbers) rapture when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
23. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second glorification when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
24. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 last days periods?
25. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 new heavens and new earths one with sin, sinners and corruption in it and the other perfect?

 

[Davy]

LOL...Amils try to spin history by some convoluted misinterpretation of scripture. They even try to spin what the ECFs believed!

Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)​

• In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin explicitly states:
• He acknowledges that not all Christians agreed with this view, even in his time, but he presents it as orthodox and reasonable.

---

Irenaeus (c. 130–202 AD)​

• In Against Heresies, especially Book 5, he provides a detailed chiliastic vision.
• He connects the promise of the millennium to God’s covenantal promises and the renewal of creation.
• He sees the millennium as a time of restored paradise, where the righteous enjoy blessings on earth before the final judgment and the eternal state

You can still rejoice however, you have the RCC and numerous popes on your side...LOL

I personally am not a Catholic, but a Protestant, yet I well understand that the early 1st century Church fathers were Premill, and that was before there was a "bishop of bishops" setup later by the Catholic Church.

 

[Davy]

I will ignore your insults. I will keep to the issues.

There's nothing that you are quoting that disagrees with what I said. The Chiliasts believed in the future thousand years, but it was perfect and pristine. You fail to see that it was not polluted with all the corruption you force into it.

Justin Martyr:

[T]he serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 45).

He further states in another work:

For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils (1st Apology, Chapter LII).

....

The main problem with 'your' interpretation of those quotes is that just because they do not specifically mention the future Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign at Jesus' 2nd coming, you think that means the "thousand years" is not literal.

Likewise, man's false Amil theory tries to destroy what Jesus showed in Revelation 20 about His future "thousand years" literal reign that begins at His 2nd coming, just because He likewise did not specifically mention that "thousand years" period in Scripture like the below...

Matt 25:32-34
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
KJV

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
KJV

Matt 13:40-43
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

So what would be the used of Christ giving His Church His Book of Revelation through His servant John if He had already 'revealed' literally His future "thousand years" reign in between His 2nd coming and the destruction of those wicked?

But what man's false Amil theory does is just scrap... any... and all... Scripture ideas that point to Christ's future literal reign over the wicked. The evidences for Christ's future reign after His 2nd coming over the wicked exists in other Bible Scriptures other than just Revelation 20. Do you really think the early Church fathers were ignorant of that? And I'm talking about quite a bit of Bible Scripture that Amil just disregards on that, or throws out completely with falsely supplanted SPIRITUALIZED ALLEGORIES in their place instead.

Thus what @shepherdsword quoted from the ECF stands in contradiction to 'your' false Amil interpretation of those other quotes you posted.

 

[WPM]

The main problem with 'your' interpretation of those quotes is that just because they do not specifically mention the future Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign at Jesus' 2nd coming, you think that means the "thousand years" is not literal.

Likewise, man's false Amil theory tries to destroy what Jesus showing in Revelation 20 about His future "thousand years" reign at begins at His 2nd coming, just because He likewise did not specifically mention that "thousand years" period in Scripture like the below...

Matt 25:32-34
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
KJV

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
KJV

Matt 13:40-43
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

So what would be the used of Christ giving His Church His Book of Revelation through His servant John if He had already 'revealed' literally His future "thousand years" reign in between His 2nd coming and the destruction of those wicked? But what man's false Amil theory does is just scrap... any... and all... Scripture ideas that point to Christ's future reign over the wicked. The evidences for Christ's future reign after His 2nd coming over the wicked exists in other Bible Scriptures other than just Revelation 20. Do you really think the early Church fathers were ignorant of that? And I'm talking about quite a bit of Bible Scripture that Amil just disregards on that, or throws out completely with falsely supplanted SPIRITUALIZED ALLEGORIES in their place instead.

Thus what @shepherdsword quoted from the ECF stands in contradiction to 'your' false Amil interpretation of those other quotes you posted.

1. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Satan being cast down from heaven at the second coming?
2. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the binding of Satan at the second coming?
3. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked survive the second coming of the Lord?
4. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Satan survives the second coming?
5. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years after the second coming?
6. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the wicked populate a future millennial earth?
7. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that the curse continues unabated on a future millennial earth?
8. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that mortals will populate future millennial earth?
9. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that marriage and procreation continue on on a future millennial earth?
10. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that sin continues on in a future millennial earth?
11. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that death continues on in a future millennial earth?
12. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that corruption continues unabated on in a future millennial earth?
13. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus will rule over his enemies for a thousand years after the second coming?
14. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the saints rule over mortal humanity for a thousand years?
15. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that the glorified Church will rule in the Millennial era, causing all on earth to submit to the rule of Christ at that time?
16. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of the restoring of Israel back to her old covenant theocratic status in a future millennium?
17. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief of Israel retaking her ancient borders in a future millennium?
18. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 240 teach the Premil belief that Satan will be released from the bottomless pit 1000 years after the second coming?
19. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as the sand of the sea?
20. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
21. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that Jesus and the glorified saints will be surrounded by billions of wicked mortals led by Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
22. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second (or 3rd for Pretribbers) rapture when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
23. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be a second glorification when the first earth flees away 1,000 years+ after the second coming?
24. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 last days periods?
25. Where do any of the ancient Chiliasts before AD 270 teach the Premil belief that there will be 2 new heavens and new earths one with sin, sinners and corruption in it and the other perfect?