Why I Am a Cessationist

[Cassandra]

Oh ye of little faith.

"The Pharisees accused Jesus of using power from the devil"......Exactly. Still the same accusation today...nothing new under the sun. And we need to know this is a huge error that can potentially place one outside of the faith....God doesn't take the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit lightly. Having a form of godliness but denying the power....from such turn away.

Didn't you say this?

 

[ChristisGod]

This is good . . . I'll look for a well thought out reply.

Much love!

God is love and God is knowable and we are commanded to love others like God loves the world. It’s a sacrificial love and we are to die to self and look out for the interests of others above our own interests. To love the unloveable, the outcasts, those who hate us, our enemies , to bless them and not curse them. God never asks us to be or do something God is not. Jesus’ teaching who was/is God was to “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:44).

Loving those who love you is not Gods love that is human love. Jesus said in Luke 6:32-33 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And indeed, if you do good to those doing good to you, what credit is it to you? For even sinners do the same. Luke 6:35- But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Matthew 5:43-45
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

Since Christ is God He commands us to love our enemies just like God loves His enemies. While we were yet enemies Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

God is Love.
Loving God is always connected to loving others. If you cannot or do not love others then you do not love God and are deceived. The greatest commandment Jesus answered was to love God with all you mind, heart, soul and strength and your neighbor. Jesus connected the love of God with loving others. He said the whole world will know you are My disciples by how you love one another. John takes it a step further and says if you don't love others then you don't love God. God is love within His own Being/Nature. We love because God is love and we are to be imitators of Christ/God. Jesus died for the ungodly, the sinner , those who were by nature children of wrath. Thats why Jesus said to love your enemies. While we were yet enemies Christ died for us. Love trumps all. Faith, hope and love. The greatest and eternal is love. 1 Cor 13. The others will all fade away, but Love is eternal because its who God is as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


James 2:8
If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

John 13:34-35
34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 15:13
13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

John 15:17
17 "This I command you, that you love one another

Matt 22:37-40
And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

1 John 2:3-6
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1 John 3:14-19
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.


1 John 4:7-14
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

1 John 4:16-21
16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

 

[ChristisGod]

continued :

What biblical love looks like in the mirror. Paul defines love below and what it should look like in the Christians life

1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Galatians 5:22-25
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

James 2
My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


1 Peter 1- Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

1 Peter 2:8- Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.

2 Peter 1- For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

In the above we can see Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and James are all saying the same thing in unison. @marks

 

[Lizbeth]

The list is good. We could go down that list and mark them: Wrong--leader, wrong--focus, wrong--on prophecies, etc. That was Israel.

Now, what does the church expect regarding Jesus' second coming? (again, just briefly)

Israel mistakenly had their eyes on things of earth, the natural...rather than on the spiritual. They were expecting a flesh and blood King who would deliver them from their natural enemies and set up an earthly utopian kingdom. Whereas Jesus said the kingdom comes not with our careful observation but is within us....and His kingdom is not of this world. Is the church today making that same mistake?

 

[Johann]

Didn't you say this?

Just keep on digging and asking questions @Cassandra.

 

[ChristisGod]

Miseo in the lexicon , hate means to esteem less, to love less- even many Calvinist theologians agree that is the meaning. The same meaning from Jesus when He said a disciple must hate his own mother, father to come follow Him. Hate there means the exact same thing. You love your mother/father less than you do Jesus- You esteem Jesus more, love Him more.

Why would God bless Esau if He actually hated him ?

An oxymoron once again in your theology, a contradiction.

miseó: to hate

Original Word: μισέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: miseó
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
Definition: to hate
Usage: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less.

HELPS Word-studies

3404 miséō – properly, to detest (on a comparativebasis); hence, denounce; to love someone or something less than someone(something) else, i.e. to renounce one choice in favor of another.

Lk 14:26: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate (3404 /miséō, 'love less' than the Lord) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple" (NASU).

[Note the comparative meaning of 3404 (miséō) which centers in moral choice, elevating one value over another.]

to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13 BDAG


BDAG.
② to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13 (Mal 1:2f). Perh. 2 Cl 6:6 (s. 1b). (JDenney, The Word ‘Hate’ in Lk 14:26: ET 21, 1910, 41f; WBleibtreu, Paradoxe Aussprüche Jesu: Theol. Arbeiten aus d. wissensch. Prediger-Verein d. Rheinprovinz, new ser. 20, 24, 15–35; RSockman, The Paradoxes of J. ’36).—ACarr, The Mng. of ‘Hatred’ in the NT: Exp. 6th ser., 12, 1905, 153–60.—DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW.

And here is a Greek Scholar/Teacher Robert Mounce

I loved, but Esau I hated” (Mal 1:2–3). This should not be interpreted to mean that God actually hated Esau. The strong contrast is a Semitic idiom that heightens the comparison by stating it in absolute terms. 17

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995), 198–199.

Berkeley softens the contrast translating, “To Jacob I was drawn, but Esau I repudiated” (the NRSV has “chose” and “rejected”). In discussing the “hatred” of God, Michel comments that it “is not so much an emotion as a rejection in will and deed” (TDNT 4.687).

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995).

Here are more renown Scholars

Esau I hated. I.e., “loved less,” according to an ancient Near Eastern hyperbole. It expresses the lack of gratuitous election of Esau and the Edomites (Idumaeans). See Gen 29:30–31: “he loved Rachel more than Leah …; when the Lord saw that Leah was hated …”; cf. Deut 21:15–17; compare Luke 14:26 (“hate”) with Matt 10:37 (“love more”). There is no hint here of predestination to “grace” or “glory” of an individual; it is an expression of the choice of corporate Israel over corporate Edom.

Joseph A. Fitzmyer S.J., Romans: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary, vol. 33, Anchor Yale Bible (New Haven; London: Yale University Press, 2008), 563.

13. Characteristically Paul backs up his argument with a quotation from Scripture, this one from Malachi 1:2–3: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Two questions are important here: Is Paul referring to nations or individuals? and What is meant by hated? As to the first, we have just seen that the Genesis passage refers primarily to nations and we would expect that to continue here. That this is the case seems clear from what Malachi writes about Esau: “Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals” (Mal. 1:3). Both in Genesis and Malachi the reference is clearly to nations, and we should accept this as Paul’s meaning accordingly.

The meaning of hated is a different kind of problem. There is a difficulty in that Scripture speaks of a love of God for the whole world (John 3:16) and the meaning of “God is love” (1 John 4:8, 16) is surely that God loves, quite irrespective of merit or demerit in the beloved. Specifically he is said to love sinners (Rom. 5:8). It is also true that in Scripture there are cases where “hate” seems clearly to mean “love less” (e.g., Gen. 29:31, 33; Deut. 21:15; Matt. 6:24; Luke 14:26; John 12:25). Many find this an acceptable solution here: God loved Esau (and the nation Edom) less than he loved Jacob (and Israel). But it is perhaps more likely that like Calvin we should understand the expression in the sense “reject” over against “accept”. He explains the passage thus: “I chose Jacob and rejected Esau, induced to this course by my mercy alone, and not by any worthiness in his works.… I had rejected the Edomites.…” This accords with the stress throughout this passage on the thought of election for service. God chose Israel for this role; he did not so choose Edom. Leon Morris, The Epistle to the Romans,

 

[Lizbeth]

Didn't you say this?

Yes I did. It wasn't my intention to insult anyone. But we do need faith. It's a hugely important theme in scripture. And denying the power of God or ascribing it to the devil is being warned against in the bible. Still goes on today so we still need reminding of those scrips.

 

[Cassandra]

Yes I did. It wasn't my intention to insult anyone. But we do need faith. It's a hugely important theme in scripture. And denying the power of God or ascribing it to the devil is being warned against in the bible. Still goes on today so we still need reminding of those scrips.

And since there are devils working miracles, we need to be on our guard. That is exactly why the Bible tells you what it does. Again, god knows your heart. You are not grieving the Holy Spirit when you question. This is vastly different from being Pharaisicial. If it were possible, would deceive the very elect. God does not want us to blindly follow.

1 John 4:1​

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
​

Matthew 7:15​

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
​

Isaiah 8:20​

To the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
​

1 John 4:1-6​

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. ...
​

Matthew 24:24​

For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
​

Deuteronomy 18:22​

​

When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
​

1 Thessalonians 5:21​

But test everything; hold fast what is good.
​

Matthew 24:11​

And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
​

Matthew 7:15-20​

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ...
​

Jeremiah 23:16​

Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord.​

There are many more here:

What Does the Bible Say About Test Prophets?

Bible verses about Test Prophets

www.openbible.info

 

[ScottA]

Israel mistakenly had their eyes on things of earth, the natural...rather than on the spiritual. They were expecting a flesh and blood King who would deliver them from their natural enemies and set up an earthly utopian kingdom. Whereas Jesus said the kingdom comes not with our careful observation but is within us....and His kingdom is not of this world. Is the church today making that same mistake?

Yes, and it began way back then when the church did not believe all that Jesus said of His return, but instead believed the foretold false teachings. Instead of hearing what He actually said, and that it would be "soon", and "must shortly take please" implicating that generation, referring to them personally, saying "you."

Not seeing Jesus return by their observation, they adopted a false gospel replacing "soon" with "someday", and "this generation" to "that generation." Which most of Christendom still believes and teaches. Which is the fulfillment of Peter's warning and Paul's prophecy of believing a "lie" causing "strong delusion."

Even now, many if not most will defend their believing the lie, with blatant disregard to those prophecies and all that is written, and kick the can down the road believing and blaming some someday generation, or some other sect.

 

[Johann]

For myself, I see a difference between the "signs and wonders"/works of an Apostle and the ministry gifts. I think God gave certain gifts to His Apostles to authenticate their ministries, as with Jesus. And I think God still gives certain gifts so we will minister according to His power.

Much love!

Yes, and it began way back then when the church did not believe all that Jesus said of His return, but instead believed the foretold false teachings. Instead of hearing what He actually said, and that it would be "soon", and "must shortly take please" implicating the generation of that generation, referring to them personally, saying "you."

Not seeing Jesus return by their observation, they adopted a false gospel replacing "soon" with "someday", and "this generation" to "that generation." Which most of Christendom still believes and teaches. Which is the fulfillment of Peter's warning and Paul's prophecy of believing a "lie" causing "strong delusion."

Even now, many if not most will defend their believing the lie, with blatant disregard to those prophecies and all that is written, and kick the can down the road believing and blaming some someday generation, or some other sect.

What do you believe?That Jesus already returned? The second coming already happened?

 

[Lizbeth]

And since there are devils working miracles, we need to be on our guard. That is exactly why the Bible tells you what it does. Again, god knows your heart. You are not grieving the Holy Spirit when you question. This is vastly different from being Pharaisicial. If it were possible, would deceive the very elect. God does not want us to blindly follow.

1 John 4:1​

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.​

​

Matthew 7:15​

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.​

​

Isaiah 8:20​

To the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.​

​

1 John 4:1-6​

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. ...​

​

Matthew 24:24​

For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.​

​

Deuteronomy 18:22​

​

When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.​

​

1 Thessalonians 5:21​

But test everything; hold fast what is good.​

​

Matthew 24:11​

And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.​

​

Matthew 7:15-20​

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ...​

​

Jeremiah 23:16​

Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord.​

There are many more here:

What Does the Bible Say About Test Prophets?

Bible verses about Test Prophets

www.openbible.info

Yes there are false ones out there, lots of them - but scripture does not teach anywhere that the devil is the only one who does signs and wonders and therefore anything that could be termed 'supernatural" (don't really like that word) must therefore be of the devil. On the contrary.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, and it began way back then when the church did not believe all that Jesus said of His return, but instead believed the foretold false teachings. Instead of hearing what He actually said, and that it would be "soon", and "must shortly take please" implicating that generation, referring to them personally, saying "you."

Not seeing Jesus return by their observation, they adopted a false gospel replacing "soon" with "someday", and "this generation" to "that generation." Which most of Christendom still believes and teaches. Which is the fulfillment of Peter's warning and Paul's prophecy of believing a "lie" causing "strong delusion."

Even now, many if not most will defend their believing the lie, with blatant disregard to those prophecies and all that is written, and kick the can down the road believing and blaming some someday generation, or some other sect.

Yes, though I do wonder if everything that happened to the Jew first in 70 AD will then happen to the Gentile when God judges...the "world" (mostly Gentile). Bible says "Tribulation and anguish upon the soul of every man who does evil...to the Jew FIRST, then the GENTILE." God judged the Jew first in 70AD and will judge the Gentile (world) when He comes again to judge the world....? At that time the world will be burned up according to 2Peter 3........so no earthly kingdom for His bride, but a heavenly one where we shall forever be with the Lord.......new "heavens/earth"....New Jerusalem.

 

[ScottA]

What do you believe?That Jesus already returned? The second coming already happened?

No, that is the Preterist position. That is not what Jesus said of His return either.

What He said was, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me" (Revelation 3:20). Which in the original language, is referring to each individual. Which changes the focus of Paul's saying "but each one in his own order" to be a confirmation that Jesus' return is not a one-time, mass, future event observable to this world, but...within each person, even in there own time.

Now we know that Jesus was the firstfruits, and that those to follow began at Pentecost, and we know it continues in that way even today. But that is not the way it is being taught. On the contrary, like a split-tongued serpent, out of one side of the mouth comes the mass future event all the world will see, while out of the other side of the mouth comes the..oh sure, you can receive Christ today and be born in the spirit--but you'll have to wait for His second coming, 'cause that's not it!

 

[Johann]

like a split-tongued serpent, out of one side of the mouth comes the mass future event all the world will see, while out of the other side of the mouth comes the..oh sure, you can receive Christ today and be born in the spirit--but you'll have to wait for His second coming, 'cause that's not it!

Give me your scripture references on this vehement claim @ScottA

 

[ScottA]

Yes, though I do wonder if everything that happened to the Jew first in 70 AD will then happen to the Gentile when God judges...the "world" (mostly Gentile). Bible says "Tribulation and anguish upon the soul of every man who does evil...to the Jew FIRST, then the GENTILE." God judged the Jew first in 70AD and will judge the Gentile (world) when He comes again to judge the world....? At that time the world will be burned up according to 2Peter 3........so no earthly kingdom for His bride, but a heavenly one where we shall forever be with the Lord.......new "heavens/earth"....New Jerusalem.

Yes, in a manner of speaking..."but the end is not yet" although at the door.

Each world event is a mere relatively small event is some respects. When we read of Noah and the flood being over all the earth, all does mean all. However, even the cross was a relatively small event beginning with One, then twelve, then a multitude, all in a small part of the world, even if it was the center. 70 A.D. was one such event, only so big as to fulfill the lessor scale of that smaller enactment. All of which, as things of old, all point to something profoundly greater in God.

What is at work is that greater something, and these events seen of this world are but the tip of the iceberg.

That greater something is every promise and every revelation from God amidst a world of everything everyone ever believed made manifest, before the Judgement. All of which was before the foundation of the world, only now made manifest.

 

[ScottA]

Give me your scripture references on this vehement claim @ScottA

Where have you been?

It is not I who claim these things, but have witnessed them as all of history has since the scriptures were canonized. What is in the scriptures only foretold of all this--which I did give scripture reference on.

Other than being foretold, there is only one place that the events I have reported are referred to in the scriptures...but then it was sealed, only to be revealed just before the time of the end.

 

[Johann]

Where have you been?

It is not I who claim these things, but have witnessed them as all of history has since the scriptures were canonized. What is in the scriptures only foretold of all this--which I did give scripture reference on.

Other than being foretold, there is only one place that the events I have reported are referred to in the scriptures...but then it was sealed, only to be revealed just before the time of the end.

I've been around but asked you to give me scripture references since I have not the slightest clue as to what you are referring to-is this about the sealing of the words as per Daniel? Revelation?

 

[Cassandra]

Yes there are false ones out there, lots of them - but scripture does not teach anywhere that the devil is the only one who does signs and wonders and therefore anything that could be termed 'supernatural" (don't really like that word) must therefore be of the devil. On the contrary.

No, I never said it did. it doesn't but it is critical that we examine.. i

 

[ScottA]

I've been around but asked you to give me scripture references since I have not the slightest clue as to what you are referring to-is this about the sealing of the words as per Daniel? Revelation?

Now you are mixing things up. Slow down.

You asked me to give you scripture references for the fact that the church has fallen into apostacy "already at work" during the time of the apostles.

To which I answered saying there are no scriptures regarding these times except what was foretold--which I did give references for.

Then, for confirmation, if you are so inclined and up to searching the scriptures, I added that there is only one scripture reference about it all coming to light just before the end. Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I did say that the account was sealed. Now it no longer is.

 

[Johann]

You asked me to give you scripture references for the fact that the church has fallen into apostacy "already at work" during the time of the apostles.

To which I answered saying there are no scriptures regarding these times except what was foretold--which I did give references for.

Then, for confirmation, if you are so inclined and up to search the scriptures, I add that there is only one scripture reference about it all coming to light just before the end. Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I did say that the account was sealed. Now it no longer is.

Certainly! I understand your question about whether there are specific scriptures indicating that the church had fallen into apostasy during the time of the apostles. Here’s how I see it:

Apostasy Already at Work:
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, the apostle Paul speaks about a "falling away" or apostasy that would occur before the day of the Lord. This suggests a departure from true faith within the church, which could be seen as an early sign of apostasy.

Warnings and Concerns:
Throughout the New Testament, there are warnings and concerns expressed by the apostles regarding false teachings, divisive behaviors, and moral lapses within the church (e.g., 2 Peter 2:1-3; Jude 1:3-4).

Scriptural Fulfillment:
Regarding the timing of when these issues would come to light or be fully revealed, Jesus himself spoke about false prophets and false Christs in the last days (Matthew 24:24), indicating a culmination or revelation of apostasy towards the end times.

Sealing of the Account:
While specific instances of apostasy during the apostolic era may not be extensively detailed in scripture, the general warnings and prophetic insights given by the apostles indicate the presence and potential growth of such challenges within the early church.

So- while there may not be explicit passages detailing apostasy within the church during the apostolic period, the New Testament does provide warnings and prophecies that suggest the presence and spread of false teachings and moral compromises. The culmination of these issues is further prophesied to intensify as we approach the end times, as indicated by scripture. If you have specific passages or aspects you’d like to explore further, I’m here to discuss it more deeply.