The cessation of miracles

[KUWN]

Just because common sicknesses were not being healed does not equate to that healings were no longer taking place. Many were sick and dying in the church at Corinth. Are you arguing that the supernatural gifts had already ceased by then, yes or no?

No. I am saying that the supernatural gifts were temporary (operational in the Apostolic Age) and I would suggest that 70 AD might be a better time, since this epistle shows the change in dispensations. If you can refute the article on Heb 2:3,4, you could brag and say Miracles are for the entire Church Age. Are you brave enough to try?

 

[marks]

Please don’t misunderstand me…..it’s not the “healing” that I am questioning….it is the source of the power behind them.

You truly believe Satan has the power to heal? Does he have the power to create? (water to wine, for instance) Does he have the power to raise from the dead? I think you overestimate his power.

If Satan had the power you seem to think, then how does Jesus' disciples doing miracles serve to authenticate them for the people? If you can work the same miracles by the Holy Spirit or by the Devil, then there is not value.

Jesus said, believe Me for the very work's sake, but if the devil can do the same things, then anyone can make that claim, and it becomes worthless.

When the Pharisees tried to claim the power from the Holy Spirit was actually coming from the Devil, Jesus warned them about that, how they would not be forgiven. You make the same claim, and put yourself in the same position.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Well said.

You do know you'll never lead the JW's here out of the Watchtower mindset,right?

I don’t feel any compelling need to; do you? I haven’t won a theological argument yet, and I probably never will. I just say what I want to say and move on.

In 3 years and 8K+ posts here, probably the only thing I ever did or said that made a damn bit of difference to anyone was when I treated them with kindness and compassion and offered words of encouragement.

 

[marks]

Please tell me what bible version you are reading @Aunty Jane ? Is it missing pages ?

Lets us investigate what you just proclaimed above , the part in bold .

Luke 5 , miracle of catching fish , Simon Peter and Jesus benefit .

Luke 8 , miracle of calming the storm at sea , Jesus and the apostles benefit .

Luke 6 , Jesus walks on the water .

Matthew 17 , Jesus pays temple tax with miracle coin .

John 11 , Jesus Raises Lazarus from the Dead in Bethany .

John 21 , a miracle of catching fish that Jesus cooks for the apostles ! What a great meal that must have been !

Add Peter raising Dorcas from the dead, she was a "disciple".

Then there was Eutychus, the fellow who fell out of the window whom Paul raised to life.

And just saying that only unbelievers were healed is entirely an argument from silence, shown false by these examples.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well said.

You do know you'll never lead the JW's here out of the Watchtower mindset,right?

Miracles still happen, so, who knows? Maybe God will grant repentance.

Much love!

 

[AngelicArcher]

Not so. The first to come to mind is Tabitha, raised from the dead by Peter.

Acts 9:36-41 KJV
36) Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
37) And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
38) And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
39) Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
40) But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41) And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Much love!

There's the false notion too that neither Jesus or his Disciples healed,performed miracles , upon any but unbelievers.

Jesus and his Disciples walked among believers,the Jews,and performed miracles.

Lazarus was a believer.

Lots of false teaching in the world.

 

[soberxp]

The cessation of miracles

It is not that the miracle has stopped, but that only seeing the miracle Does not make a man become a believer, more is the need to hear the word of God, or the two things are complementary and indispensable.(miracles and word of God.)

 

[AngelicArcher]

Please tell me what bible version you are reading @Aunty Jane ? Is it missing pages ?

Lets us investigate what you just proclaimed above , the part in bold .

Luke 5 , miracle of catching fish , Simon Peter and Jesus benefit .

Luke 8 , miracle of calming the storm at sea , Jesus and the apostles benefit .

Luke 6 , Jesus walks on the water .

Matthew 17 , Jesus pays temple tax with miracle coin .

John 11 , Jesus Raises Lazarus from the Dead in Bethany .

John 21 , a miracle of catching fish that Jesus cooks for the apostles ! What a great meal that must have been !

AJ is Jehovah Witness.

Their book is the new world translation.
Historic in the sense it exists because a select body of the Watchtower community,the order under which JWs operate, abrogated the actual Bible so to have the new world translation they manufactured comport with JW ideology.

I.E. it is a cult tome.

Which is why you will find "pages missing" in any JW's argument.

Here's a other factor you might consider.
You will never lead them to understand their cult is false. If they leave the cult programming they lose everyone they know who are in the temple of the JW. Family,friends.

What Happens to Those Who Exit Jehovah’s Witnesses: An Investigation of the Impact of Shunning - PMC

Shunning and ostracism have severe impacts on individuals’ psychological and social well-being. Members of Jehovah’s Witnesses are subject to shunning when they do not comply with the stated doctrine or belief system. To investigate the effects of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Aunty Jane]

In other words, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” (Matthew 12:24 reference, for those who didn't immediately recognize it.)

Can we examine a few details here….?

Why did the Pharisees say that? Because the miracles that Jesus performed were making them look bad as he frequently exposed their hypocrisy, and they had no rational explanation for these miracles, nor could they duplicate them. They were jealous of his abilities, and murderously angry that he was exposing them.

Though I agree that it's cruel to tell someone that it's their fault that someone they loved wasn't healed...

That's the real issue, isn't it? That God sovereignly chooses to cure some and not others? That some prayers are answered affirmatively, and others aren't?

In the first century that wasn’t the case….it wasn’t a random event that took place when Christians prayed for other Christians. Not a soul was told that a miracle failed because of a lack of their faith, but there was one incident that Jesus addressed. In Matt 17:14-20 is the account of a young boy with a demon that threw him into convulsions.…but the disciples could not expel it. Was it because the boy or his father lacked faith? No!
Jesus reply revealed the real reason….
”Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said: “Why could we not expel it?” 20 He said to them: “Because of your little faith. For truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard grain, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”

It was the faith of the miracle workers, not of the recipient of the miracle, that caused the failure.

Acts 5:12-16…is also pertinent….
”Moreover, through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders continued to occur among the people; and they would all meet together in Solʹo·mon’s Colonnade. 13 True, none of the others had the courage to join them; nevertheless, the people were speaking highly of them. 14 More than that, believers in the Lord kept on being added, great numbers both of men and of women. 15 They even brought the sick out into the main streets and laid them there on small beds and mats, so that as Peter would pass by, at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 Also, crowds of people from the cities around Jerusalem kept coming, carrying sick people and those troubled with unclean spirits, and they were one and all cured.”

”One and all were cured”….God did not randomly cure some but not others….and no one had reason to believe that God had failed them. The Christians were still at this stage, seen as a Jewish sect.

You will notice that the apostles were still teaching in the Temple, although relegated to Solomon’s Colonade because of opposition from the Jews. It wasn’t until later that the opposition forced them to find a different venue to teach.….so “the people” being preached to were interested Jews who were persuaded by the miracles to hear more of what Jesus’ apostles had to say.

I suppose having low expectations is one way to be inoculated against disappointment....

Did the people who came to Christ in the first century have low expectations? Was there a reason for them to do so? They witnessed “one and all“ being cured, so their expectations were not disappointed….but today, many leave their often theatrical church healers and their unheard prayers in total disappointment for their failures. If it is the same Holy Spirit effecting these “cures”, what happened? Did God lose his mojo?
How easy is it for those charlatans to blame “the people” for what didn’t happen?
Just understanding what the Bible actually says, rather than what people assume that it says is sometimes a real eye opener…..the truth is there….it’s just hidden often in willful ignorance.

 

[talons]

You will never lead them to understand their cult is false.

I am not working alone .

If they leave the cult programming they lose everyone they know who are in the temple of the JW. Family,friends.

Are you in the world or are you in Christ would be the question for everyone . Programming is there to keep you in the world and away from Christ in so many things of this world . Wealth , drugs , alcohol , pleasures of the flesh , Sports , music , idols , games , bread and circuses .

 

[Aunty Jane]

Read post #41 again and concentrate on what I say about the doctor's reaction . A man with many years of medical training and medical practice .

I read it, and I understood it, and even gave you my own family example of something that medical doctors at the time, could not explain….it wasn’t a miracle.

Please tell me what bible version you are reading @Aunty Jane ? Is it missing pages ?

Lets us investigate what you just proclaimed above , the part in bold .

Luke 5 , miracle of catching fish , Simon Peter and Jesus benefit .

Luke 8 , miracle of calming the storm at sea , Jesus and the apostles benefit .

Luke 6 , Jesus walks on the water .

Matthew 17 , Jesus pays temple tax with miracle coin .

John 11 , Jesus Raises Lazarus from the Dead in Bethany .

John 21 , a miracle of catching fish that Jesus cooks for the apostles ! What a great meal that must have been !

I can use any Bible you choose to explain what you are not hearing…..there are no missing pages, just details missing in your reading because you choose to believe another narrative.

The healing miracles were for the benefit of unbelievers in order to bring them to Christ…..healing and feeding vast crowds of people were the only things Jesus did on a mass scale…again to demonstrate that he was “the son of God”. How else was he to draw the vast crowds that he did…sometimes in the thousands?!

Jesus performed miracles for his apostles in order to convince them too, that he really was ”the son of God”.….he demonstrated his power in calming the storm, in catching the fish, walking on water….. At the time of his death and resurrection, all who heard Jesus and the apostles preach were Jews. (Matt 15:24) These are the people that Jesus cured of their sicknesses and also raised the dead…again to bring people to see who he was…their Messiah, sent from God and given his power.

In the case of Tabitha, what was the result of her resurrection….
Acts 9: 40-42….
“Peter then put everyone outside, and kneeling down, he prayed. Then turning toward the body, he said: “Tabʹi·tha, rise!” She opened her eyes, and as she caught sight of Peter, she sat up. 41 Giving her his hand, he raised her up, and he called the holy ones and the widows and presented her alive. 42 This became known throughout all Jopʹpa, and many became believers in the Lord.”

For whose benefit was she raised from the dead…..and tell me who today can say that Holy Spirit has raised anyone from the dead…again…it’s supposedly the same Holy Spirit, with the same power that is claimed to act today. Why then the failures?

With the resurrection of Lazarus, what was accomplished in bringing him back from death? For whose benefit was it that Jesus chose not to go to his friend while he was sick, and cure him, but waited four days for his death?

John 11: 14-15….
“Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died, 15 and I rejoice for your sake that I was not there, so that you may believe.”

For whose benefit was it? Jesus was reinforcing their belief because these apostles were to carry on his work after his sacrificial death…their faith in him had to be rock solid, especially when Jesus was taken from them and they scattered after his arrest. He appeared to them after his resurrection to demonstrate that he was still with them. Death had not conquered him and his mission lived on in them.

But did he ever cure them of their illnesses? Did the apostles ever use their gifts to cure themselves or each other? There is no record that they did, but at least two instances where it stated that other methods were used to treat their sickness…..
I have shown you what the Bible says about those things…..yet you don’t believe me…..why?
Can you not then, believe the Bible?

 

[Hidden In Him]

No. I am saying that the supernatural gifts were temporary (operational in the Apostolic Age) and I would suggest that 70 AD might be a better time, since this epistle shows the change in dispensations. If you can refute the article on Heb 2:3,4, you could brag and say Miracles are for the entire Church Age. Are you brave enough to try?

Your position in the OP is that Hebrews 2:3-4 argue that the gifts have ceased as of the writing of that letter. So you are arguing for a date of AD 70 as its date? Who do you believe the author was?

 

[talons]

I read it, and I understood it, and even gave you my own family example of something that medical doctors at the time, could not explain….it wasn’t a miracle.

I can use any Bible you choose to explain what you are not hearing…..there are no missing pages, just details missing in your reading because you choose to believe another narrative.

The healing miracles were for the benefit of unbelievers in order to bring them to Christ…..healing and feeding vast crowds of people were the only things Jesus did on a mass scale…again to demonstrate that he was “the son of God”. How else was he to draw the vast crowds that he did…sometimes in the thousands?!

Jesus performed miracles for his apostles in order to convince them too, that he really was ”the son of God”.….he demonstrated his power in calming the storm, in catching the fish, walking on water….. At the time of his death and resurrection, all who heard Jesus and the apostles preach were Jews. (Matt 15:24) These are the people that Jesus cured of their sicknesses and also raised the dead…again to bring people to see who he was…their Messiah, sent from God and given his power.

In the case of Tabitha, what was the result of her resurrection….
Acts 9: 40-42….
“Peter then put everyone outside, and kneeling down, he prayed. Then turning toward the body, he said: “Tabʹi·tha, rise!” She opened her eyes, and as she caught sight of Peter, she sat up. 41 Giving her his hand, he raised her up, and he called the holy ones and the widows and presented her alive. 42 This became known throughout all Jopʹpa, and many became believers in the Lord.”

For whose benefit was she raised from the dead…..and tell me who today can say that Holy Spirit has raised anyone from the dead…again…it’s supposedly the same Holy Spirit, with the same power that is claimed to act today. Why then the failures?

With the resurrection of Lazarus, what was accomplished in bringing him back from death? For whose benefit was it that Jesus chose not to go to his friend while he was sick, and cure him, but waited four days for his death?

John 11: 14-15….
“Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died, 15 and I rejoice for your sake that I was not there, so that you may believe.”

For whose benefit was it? Jesus was reinforcing their belief because these apostles were to carry on his work after his sacrificial death…their faith in him had to be rock solid, especially when Jesus was taken from them and they scattered after his arrest. He appeared to them after his resurrection to demonstrate that he was still with them. Death had not conquered him and his mission lived on in them.

But did he ever cure them of their illnesses? Did the apostles ever use their gifts to cure themselves or each other? There is no record that they did, but at least two instances where it stated that other methods were used to treat their sickness…..
I have shown you what the Bible says about those things…..yet you don’t believe me…..why?
Can you not then, believe the Bible?

My God is a God of miracles and at this point all I can do is pray the Holy Spirit will speak to you .

 

[AngelicArcher]

Your position in the OP is that Hebrews 2:3-4 argue that the gifts have ceased as of the writing of that letter. So you are arguing for a date of AD 70 as its date? Who do you believe the author was?

Book of Hebrews | Guide with Key Information and Resources

Dive into the book of Hebrews in the Bible. Explore key themes such as the superiority of Jesus over all creation, God’s forgiveness, and the comfort of Jesus in suffering through videos, podcasts, and more from BibleProject™.

bibleproject.com

"Hebrews was composed between 60 and 70 C.E., likely during Nero’s persecution of the Church."

 

[Aunty Jane]

You truly believe Satan has the power to heal? Does he have the power to create? (water to wine, for instance) Does he have the power to raise from the dead? I think you overestimate his power.

What are you missing here Marks? Put these events in their proper timeline and also ask what the miracles that Jesus performed accomplished?
When Jesus turned the water into wine, at what stage of his ministry did he do that? Wasn’t that Jesus’ first miracle? Was satan behind it? Only a moron would think so, or even suggest that others might think so.

How many people did Jesus raise from the dead? Thousands? Hundreds?….or just a small handful of people?…the widow’s son…Jairus’ daughter…..and his friend Lazarus….why only these three? And even though the apostles could raise the dead, why were they only a few?

From the Scriptures it is clear what power the devil has, and it is also clear that God has control over what he allows the devil to do. (See the account about Job)
It is also clear what the devil wants, and the fact that he had the audacity to tempt even the son of God to join him in his wicked rebellion, shows that he is pridefully arrogant and willfully disobedient….and creates worshippers who are clones of himself.

He has power beyond our imagination as a fallen ‘son of God’ himself. A once faithful angel, he and his cronies had to have the brakes put on until God was finished with them. They were the cause of the flood in Noah’s day. God had to put a stop to their activities and curb their abilities.…but they still have some by God’s permission…only enough to test mankind.

If Satan had the power you seem to think, then how does Jesus' disciples doing miracles serve to authenticate them for the people? If you can work the same miracles by the Holy Spirit or by the Devil, then there is not value.

The demons were very active in the days when Jesus walked the earth as the many accounts of demon possession indicate. Jesus’ command over the demons was also obvious when he encountered them and expelled them. They had no choice but to obey him….they knew who he was, as these accounts show. (Luke 8:26-35; Mark 1:23-24; Luke 4:33-34)

But if we go back in history to the days of Moses when he was confronting Pharaoh and showing him God’s power, what does the account show? Read it and see. (Exodus 7:8-13) Satan too demonstrated his power in Pharaoh’s magic practicing priests. Satan has his slaves as well…and has for a very long time.

 

[marks]

From the Scriptures it is clear what power the devil has,

You aren't answering my question, only this little reference. It always strikes me as odd when someone has so much to say, but without actually addressing the point they are responding do. All sorts of other communication, both savory and unsavory. But not an answer.

Do you believe Satan has power to heal? To create? To raise from the dead? A simple answer is fine!

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus said, believe Me for the very work's sake, but if the devil can do the same things, then anyone can make that claim, and it becomes worthless.

It is why the gifts had to cease…..if people couldn’t tell the source of the power behind the miracle then indeed, what was the point of them….but if he sent the miracles for a time and a reason, and then withdrew them as Paul’s stated, only those who did not have God’s power would perform them….the source of their power would then be obvious. The “angel of light” would pretend it was God’s miracle to those not educated in the Bible….and be misled to walk down a dark path of easily misguided ignorance and death.

When the Pharisees tried to claim the power from the Holy Spirit was actually coming from the Devil, Jesus warned them about that, how they would not be forgiven. You make the same claim, and put yourself in the same position.

From the perspective of those whose faith has been derailed by Satan’s counterfeit “Christianity” that would be a logical conclusion….but from a purely scriptural perspective, we can see that the Christian faith was hijacked so long ago that the majority who have been indoctrinated with Satan’s lies for centuries, would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit them. This is why “few” are on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14)

Jesus was “the son of God“ and manifested his power after receiving the holy spirit at his baptism and hearing God’s audible approval of him. Only then was Jesus anointed as the “Christ” and only from that time on could he show by his miracles that he was who he said he was. (John 10:31-36) Those who saw Jesus‘ miracles back then, saw the power of God demonstrated by a man…and “in his name” the apostles could also perform miracles. After his death Jesus promised that the “helper” would come and that they too would do “works even greater than his”. With their anointing at Pentecost, the apostles and disciples (120 of them) also received the power of God’s spirit….and these gifts were to enable the disciples to gain many more, but as Jesus demonstrated with the feeding of the multitudes, he asked them when they returned if they had only come for the free food?

The day after the mass feeding, the crowd follows Jesus, expecting another free meal. So Jesus told them: “You are looking for me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate from the loaves and were satisfied. Work, not for the food that perishes, but for the food that remains for life everlasting.”

Jesus had been sent by his Father to provide such spiritual food for all who would exercise faith in him. This would be “the true bread from heaven,” with more lasting effects than the literal manna that the ancient Israelites ate. (John 6:26-32) Jesus himself said that he would appoint a faithful and wise slave in these “last days” to feed his household their “food at the proper time”. (Matt 24:45)

Jesus asked “who is he?”…so who are today representing the Master as his servants and feeding their fellow slaves “food at the proper time”? Please tell us how to identify them as ‘diamonds in a pile of broken glass’?

 

[Aunty Jane]

My apologies for not finishing my other post to you... I was interrupted to take care of something important….

You aren't answering my question, only this little reference. It always strikes me as odd when someone has so much to say, but without actually addressing the point they are responding do. All sorts of other communication, both savory and unsavory. But not an answer.

Do you believe Satan has power to heal? To create? To raise from the dead? A simple answer is fine!

Now what “little reference” is it that I referred to?
Do I believe that satan has the power to heal?….something he has planned to revoke if he gave the malady to someone as an excuse to demonstrate a spiritual healing in the first place…yes, I do. If he could inflict something as grievous as he did to Job….what is there that says he cannot retract it? Do not underestimate his power either.

Can satan raise someone from the dead?….nowhere does the Bible suggest that he has that ability. Only God’s spirit can bring the dead back to life.
So if that is the case, and God’s spirit is still operative as it was back then, why do we not see resurrections as we did in Jesus’ day? Any suggestions, or things from scripture you can add? I can’t find any.

Is that simple enough for you?

 

[Aunty Jane]

My God is a God of miracles and at this point all I can do is pray the Holy Spirit will speak to you .

If you cannot read for yourself what God’s word says in opposition to your chosen beliefs, then there is not much more to say…..I have given you proof from Scripture that what I have shared with you and others on this thread is the truth….but your belief in miracles instead of God’s word, is your choice….

My God is clearly not your god. (John 17:3)
My God’s spirit has guided me all my life and the reason why I never sought miracles is because I studied God’s word rather than to believe man’s theology…..do you understand the difference?….and why you are emotionally attached to something that is appealing because you believe it is tangible evidence for what you want to believe…..but it’s not the truth that the Bible tells. The devil is a deceiver. He can make lies look like the truth and vice versa.

Its your choice about who or what to believe, as it is for all of us….but there are “voices crying in the wilderness”….who is listening to them?

 

[KUWN]

Your position in the OP is that Hebrews 2:3-4 argue that the gifts have ceased as of the writing of that letter. So you are arguing for a date of AD 70 as its date? Who do you believe the author was?

No idea, but it was not a first generation believer, as Heb 2 says.