The cessation of miracles

[talons]

There are no other explanations….so when I hear people speak of these things and tell me that they healed people of their illnesses, how many of those who attend such healings in a church walk away with the problems they had when they came? Does God pick and choose who will be the recipient of a miracle? What does that do to their faith? For many, it shatters it when they are told that they did not have enough faith to receive a cure…..when that was never the case in Bible times. It was the faith of the healer, not the healed that rendered the cure.

The doctor said my daughter's only choice was surgery .
My daughter had a protruding hernia , after prayer at church the hernia was gone never to return .
Her abdominal wall was restored .
If the doctor ever ran into us he would ask if he could see my daughters stomach , he had a hard time grasping what had taken place with the healing .

 

[Hidden In Him]

My friend, you need to check yourself in to some facility that works on mental delusion. I am serious, I know you are lying, but I am sure you get a thrill out of posting such nonsense.

This post strikes me as tremendously condescending, KUWN. There are numerous people on this forum who have experienced and walked in supernatural gifts, and we are not all operating under mental delusions, or lying just to get a thrill out of it.

You weaken your position when you yourself operate in a spirit that does not in any way appear to be how the Holy Spirit does according to scripture.

 

[Aunty Jane]

A deceptive spirit is not the Holy Spirit that indwells a believer, the elect, the chosen of God. You cannot understand without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And how many who claim to have such “indwelling” are actually all part of your particular brotherhood? What happens if they disagree with your theology? Pick a sect…any sect of Christendom who claim to have the “gifts” and I will show you why they cannot all be truthful…..what makes you think your group are truthful?….would you know the truth if it jumped up and bit you? Seriously…someone who talks to angels and even the devil himself, is deluded beyond imagination and anyone who actually believes that your experiences are real (i.e.genuinely from God) have no knowledge of Scripture except the version you offer them. Heaven help them is all I can say.

John 16:14 is clear, He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you., Jesus does not pray for the world. Jesus prays for His own and His sheep know His voice. Have you heard His voice? Well Jesus's sheep have.

Jesus prays for those who not only hear his voice, but who understand that his teachings are not his….he said that all he taught was from his Father, who is also his God. (John 7:15-16; John 20:17; Rev 3:12)

Who did Jesus say would be saved at “the end”? Only those “doing the will of his Father, (Matt 7:21-23) following the example set by his son. This included what he said at John 17:3….

”This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” This is a salvation issue….if you do not “know the only true God AND the one he sent” you do not have the truth that sets you free from the shackles of counterfeit “Christianity”…..it is the devil’s most successful tool…..deception masquerading as truth.

With someone who manifests such spiritistic traits as conversing with spirits and even the devil, whilst claiming that you are a servant of Jesus, healing people and all…..where are your brotherhood when it comes to the great commission? Are you fulfilling it on a global scale as it was a global commission.

Why are you so reluctant to tell me who your brotherhood are? You know what I am, and I have a global brotherhood some 9 million strong who all believe the same things as I do….we meet together regularly as Paul advised in Heb 10:24-25….this was “to incite to love and fine works”….so what works were these that would identify Jesus’ true disciples? Miracles? NO! They were assigned a work that meant taking the Christian message out to the people just like Jesus and his apostles did. (Matt 10:11-14) Did he mention miracles? I’m sure he would have said something about their necessity, such as “speaking in tongues” But Paul said they were to cease.
As part of his prophesy on these end times, Jesus said…

”And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matt 24:14)
So all of Christ’s disciples were to be preachers…..(Acts 20:20)

Can you tell me what the good news of the kingdom is? What is the message? And where are your brethren preaching it….”in all the inhabited earth”?

 

[Aunty Jane]

The doctor said my daughter's only choice was surgery .
My daughter had a protruding hernia , after prayer at church the hernia was gone never to return .
Her abdominal wall was restored .
If the doctor ever ran into us he would ask if he could see my daughters stomach , he had a hard time grasping what had taken place with the healing .

Please don’t misunderstand me…..it’s not the “healing” that I am questioning….it is the source of the power behind them.

If we think back to Job….who was it that made him ill? It wasn’t God, but God allowed it, why?
The devil had made the claim that Job, (and representatively all humans) only serve God when the going is good, but put the pressure on him by taking him to the brink of death with unimaginable suffering and “see if he will not curse you to your face”…….and this on top of all that he had already suffered with the loss of his 10 children and all his livelihood. God said “do it” but don’t take his life. The devil made him wish for death.

If the devil can make you sick…he can also take the sickness away. Would he have a reason to do that? Think about it. What is his agenda? The Bible says that the devil can “transform himself into an angel of light” and his servants can appear to be “ministers of righteousness.” (2 Cor 11:14-15) His trickery is not obvious if it can be seen as good works, and those who are misled by him seen as ”ministers of righteousness”. It’s pure disgusting deception….and the unwary fall for it.

Your daughter may well have had her hernia disappear, but if it was supernatural, then don’t you have to question the reason why he chose her rather than someone else who had a hernia that required surgery? Did you not claim a supernatural experience yourself when you became a “Christian”…..can I ask, is your daughter a Christian?

 

[talons]

Please don’t misunderstand me…..it’s not the “healing” that I am questioning….it is the source of the power behind them.

So my daughter was prayed for at church by the church members and she was healed . What questions do you want to ask ?

Your daughter may well have had her hernia disappear, but if it was supernatural, then don’t you have to question the reason why he chose her rather than someone else who had a hernia that required surgery?

How do you know God made a choice ? I know my daughter was healed much to the shock and surprise of her doctor .

Did you not claim a supernatural experience yourself when you became a “Christian”

Shouldn't we ALL claim a supernatural experience when we become a Christian ? Didn't the Holy Spirit become your guide and comforter ?

can I ask, is your daughter a Christian?

She was toddler when she was healed , but yes she is .

 

[AngelicArcher]

Not true.

Ok. You have convinced me. May I add that this was a brilliant response. Do you have any theological education?

Enough to recognize your sarcasm proves you do not.
Bait elsewhere.

 

[AngelicArcher]

This post strikes me as tremendously condescending, KUWN. There are numerous people on this forum who have experienced and walked in supernatural gifts, and we are not all operating under mental delusions, or lying just to get a thrill out of it.

You weaken your position when you yourself operate in a spirit that does not in any way appear to be how the Holy Spirit does according to scripture.

Sadly obvious,isn't it.

There's a bridge with a for rent sign out there somewhere. I'm sure of it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Sadly obvious,isn't it.

There's a bridge with a for rent sign out there somewhere. I'm sure of it.

I don't mind discussing Cessationist positions. At least we're discussing scripture together. But slandering and insulting people is not listed in the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[AngelicArcher]

I don't mind discussing Cessationist positions. At least we're discussing scripture together. But slandering and insulting people is not listed in the fruit of the Spirit.

It's my experience that those who are in the Spirit do not insult, slander,resort to Ad Hominem, when discussing Scripture.

Those are rotted fruits of the chained spirit.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It's my experience that those who are in the Spirit do not insult, slander,resort to Ad Hominem, when discussing Scripture.

Those are rotted fruits of the chained spirit.

I agree. I used to let myself get all bent out of shape with people, but I wasn't in the Spirit either. I was in the flesh, insisting everyone agree with me, LoL. I've since come to the realization that it's no way to lead a happy life if you intend on being an active member of a Christian forum, cuz it ain't happening : )

 

[Aunty Jane]

So my daughter was prayed for at church by the church members and she was healed . What questions do you want to ask ?

The question that comes up after Christians pray for other Christians and expect miracles……Christians were never the recipients….only unbelievers were. Neither Jesus, nor the apostles or disciples ever used the gifts on themselves or fellow Christians. They knew why God had sent them.

And minor children are counted as under their parent’s faith until they are of an age to make their own decision to become a Christians. No one is born a Christian, but all have to make their own dedication and get baptized in full understanding about what it means…there is no proxy arrangement like infant baptism….these are not valid.

How do you know God made a choice ? I know my daughter was healed much to the shock and surprise of her doctor .

And again I do not question the result…only the power behind it. And since you said it was Christians praying for a miracle for the child of a fellow Christian…you are missing the very reason why the first century miracles were given….to bring people to Christ…not to grant wishes like a genie for those who already were.

I am glad your daughter recovered but since she was so small, have you ever wondered if it was possible for her to recover naturally?
My father, as a small boy got a bone disease called osteomyelitis and his collar bone decayed away and had to be removed. Doctors know that bones do not regrow, but my father’s did and even though it was weirdly shaped, it was still viewed with amazement by the medical profession at the time. He was about the same age as your daughter. Who knows what infant stem cells are capable of? There was no claimed miracle but an anomaly of human anatomy had occurred.

Shouldn't we ALL claim a supernatural experience when we become a Christian ? Didn't the Holy Spirit become your guide and comforter ?

Show me in the Bible where it says that….this is something Christendom’s adherents claim, but all the Christians in the first century had to do, was believe…the miracles helped them to do that but as Paul stated, Christians had to leave the traits of a spiritual babe behind and grow up. They needed to leave the milk and get onto some solid spiritual food, found in God’s word.
Jesus was first and foremost a teacher….and what he taught is what his Father taught him.

When he fed the 5000, they had already spent three days listening to him teach, before he fed them. So the teaching was more important than the miracle.
Knowledge will save a person more than any miracle can. It’s what you know, not what you see. (John 17:3)

 

[Lambano]

Please don’t misunderstand me…..it’s not the “healing” that I am questioning….it is the source of the power behind them.

In other words, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” (Matthew 12:24 reference, for those who didn't immediately recognize it.)

 

[Lambano]

Does God pick and choose who will be the recipient of a miracle? What does that do to their faith? For many, it shatters it when they are told that they did not have enough faith to receive a cure…..

Though I agree that it's cruel to tell someone that it's their fault that someone they loved wasn't healed...

That's the real issue, isn't it? That God sovereignly chooses to cure some and not others? That some prayers are answered affirmatively, and others aren't?

 

[Lambano]

I suppose having low expectations is one way to be inoculated against disappointment....

 

[KUWN]

No, it's not irrefutable. You are making too much of your "temporal" argument to add words to text that are not there. συνεπιμαρτυροῦντος τοῦ θεοῦ is present active, not past tense, and you are adding the word "while" when it is not in the Greek.

How about we see how the NET Bible translates it:

3 how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was first communicated through the Lord and was confirmed to us by those who heard him, 4 while God confirmed their witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

while God confirmed (Aorist, past tense) their witness...

This is simple Greek 101. "while God confirmed..." is a simple participle. As a participle, it modifies another part of the text. All you have done was just confuse the rest in the post. You need to do some research on the participle so you wont commit such an egregious error as your comments above.

 

[talons]

I am glad your daughter recovered but since she was so small, have you ever wondered if it was possible for her to recover naturally?

Read post #41 again and concentrate on what I say about the doctor's reaction . A man with many years of medical training and medical practice .

 

[talons]

The question that comes up after Christians pray for other Christians and expect miracles……Christians were never the recipients….only unbelievers were. Neither Jesus, nor the apostles or disciples ever used the gifts on themselves or fellow Christians. They knew why God had sent them.

Please tell me what bible version you are reading @Aunty Jane ? Is it missing pages ?

Lets us investigate what you just proclaimed above , the part in bold .

Luke 5 , miracle of catching fish , Simon Peter and Jesus benefit .

Luke 8 , miracle of calming the storm at sea , Jesus and the apostles benefit .

Luke 6 , Jesus walks on the water .

Matthew 17 , Jesus pays temple tax with miracle coin .

John 11 , Jesus Raises Lazarus from the Dead in Bethany .

John 21 , a miracle of catching fish that Jesus cooks for the apostles ! What a great meal that must have been !

 

[AngelicArcher]

In other words, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” (Matthew 12:24 reference, for those who didn't immediately recognize it.)

Well said.

You do know you'll never lead the JW's here out of the Watchtower mindset,right?

 

[Hidden In Him]

How about we see how the NET Bible translates it:

3 how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was first communicated through the Lord and was confirmed to us by those who heard him, 4 while God confirmed their witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

while God confirmed (Aorist, past tense) their witness...

This is simple Greek 101. "while God confirmed..." is a simple participle. As a participle, it modifies another part of the text. All you have done was just confuse the rest in the post. You need to do some research on the participle so you wont commit such an egregious error as your comments above.

I made no error. συνεπιμαρτυροῦντος τοῦ θεοῦ = "bearing witness with God." You and the NET are supplying the word "while" when it is NOT in the Greek text.

What happened to my answer to following question, or were you dodging me. This will be my second time asking you.

Just because common sicknesses were not being healed does not equate to that healings were no longer taking place. Many were sick and dying in the church at Corinth. Are you arguing that the supernatural gifts had already ceased by then, yes or no?

 

[marks]

or on other believers

Not so. The first to come to mind is Tabitha, raised from the dead by Peter.

Acts 9:36-41 KJV
36) Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
37) And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
38) And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
39) Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
40) But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41) And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Much love!