The cessation of miracles

[AngelicArcher]

Concerning your statement above (I have visions and dreams, I've seen and talked to Jesus. I've been told the future. I have the gift of prophesy. I've healed multiple people from strokes, back pains, kidney problems, and neck problems. I also have the gift of teacher and preacher. Believe what you want.)

I can assure you that you are out of line because you contradict the fundamental clarity of Scripture. Look at Heb 1:1, 2. To have a vision after we are told they have ceased and God has finally stop speaking to us via prophets, dreams, and visions (these dreams and visions you are having are likely Demonic).

They've ceased?
A Pharisee does not command God.

The thorn in his side makes such a boast falsehood. And those who agree with it,fools.

You don't believe in miracles.

You do not speak for God. Or,any who know that miracles do occur today.

You speak falsehood. And abrogate Paul to do so.

Have Miraculous Gifts Ceased? - 1Corinthians 13:8-13

Paul says that spiritual gifts would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). The question is, when was that cessation to be? Some say at the second coming, others say when the apostles were all dead and the scriptures were complete. Who is right?

www.simplybible.com

Shame on you.

 

[KUWN]

You lack the faith to be healed as Paul and Jesus said. You do not have the Holy Spirit talk to you, so you believe nobody does. Narrow thinking there. You dismiss others because of your lack of gifts from God, therefore nobody has gifts. Maybe your unbelief is why. You are saying it's impossible, but Jesus says nothing is impossible for God. Jesus also said to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable. The Holy Spirit talks to me, so you are calling the Holy Spirit likely demonic. you might talk to Jesus about that.

It is not the HS talking to you. So I am not calling the HS like demonic. I only claimed that it was not the HS, but a demonic spirit.

 

[Angelina]

Joel : 2:28 Echoed also in (Acts 2:14–36)

28And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your old men will dream dreams,

your young men will see visions.

29Even on My menservants and maidservants,

I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

30I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth,

blood and fire and columnsg of smoke.

31The sun will be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood

before the coming of the great and awesomeh Day of the LORD.

32And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD

will be saved;i

 

[Aunty Jane]

I can assure you that you are out of line because you contradict the fundamental clarity of Scripture. Look at Heb 1:1, 2. To have a vision after we are told they have ceased and God has finally stop speaking to us via prophets, dreams, and visions (these dreams and visions you are having are likely Demonic).

The one thing that people are ignoring, is that the fact that the gifts were never used on the apostles for themselves, or on other believers…..they were strictly for the benefit of UNbelievers, so as to draw them to Christ…..it wasn’t that Paul lost the gift of healing….it was that Trophemus was a believer, as was Timothy when Paul suggested that he take a little wine for the issues he was having with his stomach. (1 Tim 5:23)
Even Jesus when he was hungry after his time with God in the wilderness, would not use the power of God’s spirit to relieve his hunger, and yet he fed thousands of people who came to hear him speak.

There are only two sources of power mentioned in the Bible….God’s or the devil’s….the other alternative for visions and dreams and encounters with God or Jesus, and having them audibly speak to you is unfortunately, mental illness. These are well documented because the psych wards of most hospitals have them as patients. The reason why they are in those facilities is that their grip on reality is warped by chemicals affecting their thinking and brain function. No one is immune to those things, as we, in our imperfection demonstrate every day our need for the Kingdom to come and fix what is wrong in this world.

There are no other explanations….so when I hear people speak of these things and tell me that they healed people of their illnesses, how many of those who attend such healings in a church walk away with the problems they had when they came? Does God pick and choose who will be the recipient of a miracle? What does that do to their faith? For many, it shatters it when they are told that they did not have enough faith to receive a cure…..when that was never the case in Bible times. It was the faith of the healer, not the healed, who rendered the cure.

We also have what is called “the placebo effect” which is also at work in some people. Science cannot explain the placebo effect, which has nothing to do with a person’s religious beliefs. Just the mere belief that a pill made them well, triggers something in their immune system that fixes the problem, but for some only temporarily. It’s the reason why drug companies have to do double blind studies….some people can heal themselves and it’s not a “miracle” but the workings of the human mind on the body that science has not yet understood.…mind over matter. Even atheists can do this.

What was the case in the first century?……No one walked away still sick…still disabled….still demonically possessed. All were cured…..Sometimes all it took was for the shadow of an apostle to fall on someone and they were cured, (Acts 5:15-16)…..the woman who approached Jesus with a sickness that under Jewish law meant that she was “unclean” to be in public, (Lev 15:19-23) secretly approached Jesus and touched his outer garment….Jesus’ response was, he stopped and said… “who touched me?” He felt power go out of him as her faith had drawn it from him. She was ashamed to be there, but was she desperate…..Jesus comforted her, and was glad she was made well. (Matt 9:22)

We can get so carried away by so called “miracles” when they are not seen today like they were in Bible times, and for good reason as Paul stated…..needing to see miracles is the trait of a spiritual babe….the miracles drew people, but they were not to sustain them….Christians had to grow up and see the miracles for what they were…a demonstration of what will occur when the Kingdom comes to “make all things new” (Rev 21:5)

To reveal to people the real source of “miracles” today is emotionally confronting, but no one has anything to fear from the truth. If it was from God, then we would not need hospitals or doctors or even undertakers as people would be cured or resurrected without them. We would see healing centers around the world with those who have the “gift“, working hard to put doctors and hospitals out of business.

An overview of these things from a purely biblical perspective, shows what the truth is about the purpose of miracles when they were first demonstrated…..they fulfilled their purpose and now we have to grow in faith by what we know…not by what we see. This is the devil’s domain and we cannot forget that he is a seasoned deceiver.

 

[AngelicArcher]

It is not the HS talking to you. So I am not calling the HS like demonic. I only claimed that it was not the HS, but a demonic spirit.

The one unforgivable sin. Blasphemy of Holy Spirit.

JW's are doomed.

 

[KUWN]

The one unforgivable sin. Blasphemy of Holy Spirit.

JW's are doomed.

The Blasphemy of the HS is a national sin, the rejection of Christ by the Jewish Nation. People today can not commit that sin.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Joel : 2:28 Echoed also in (Acts 2:14–36)

28And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your old men will dream dreams,

your young men will see visions.

29Even on My menservants and maidservants,

I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

30I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth,

blood and fire and columnsg of smoke.

31The sun will be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood

before the coming of the great and awesomeh Day of the LORD.

32And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD

will be saved;i

Hello Angelina, thank you for highlighting this passage of Scripture….
Can we examine it a bit more closely?

What was this passage referring to?
Peter was using this prophesy in Joel to demonstrate what was happening in Jerusalem after the Holy Spirit was poured out on the 120 faithful disciples of Jesus gathered at the Festival of Pentecost….those were demonstrating the miraculous gifts that God’s spirit had produced in them. So what did Peter say…..

”But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’” (ESV)

He was speaking to fellow Jews, many of whom had come to Jerusalem for the festival from foreign countries. He applied Joel’s prophesy to those who were speaking in foreign languages and manifesting other gifts, in order to preach to those Jews in their own language….and attract them to the truth about Jesus…..we learn so much more easily when God’s word is shared in our mother tongue.

Peter spoke of the “last days” because Jerusalem was in its “last days” from God’s perspective back then. No one expected what was to come upon that once great city some years into the future.
Jesus had told his disciples to wait for a sign, in order to flee from the holocaust that was coming. He died in 33 CE.
That “sign” was the Roman armies coming to besiege the city (which happened in 66 CE, some 33 years later) and when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by those military forces, they were to flee to the mountains….but how?…when the armies were already in position to destroy the city? Inexplicably, for some unknown reason, the troops all of a sudden withdrew, allowing the Christians to act on Jesus’ warning…..those who had full faith in his words, obeyed his direction and carried nothing with them except a few provisions as he instructed them. (Matt 21:20-24; Mark 13:14-16)

How difficult it must have been to just pull up stakes and leave their homes, possessions and businesses and go to a place that they had never been before. But the faithful ones did….yet, the Romans did not come back to finish what they started, for four years. Imagine being in that place and waiting to hear news that the city had fallen and its temple destroyed as Jesus had prophesied…? (Matt 24:1-2) But no news came…..would they be tempted to return, thinking that Jesus must have been mistaken? Any who did would have regretted their decision. When the Romans returned in 70CE, the siege of Jerusalem was catastrophic.
Their last days had come and Joel’s prophesy had come true.

What about today, when we are awaiting a much bigger catastrophe, affecting not just one city but the whole world?

“Armageddon” is what Jesus told us would be the final war against satan and his followers, both angelic and human. Our “last days” would also be filled with terror because no one would be able to flee when the the whole world was under siege.….physically, morally and spiritually…”like the days of Noah”, Jesus said his return would be. (Matt 24:37-39) So who or what are “the mountains” to which we must flee in these last days? What is our place of safety?
And like the first Christians, who operated as a single group, how are people today to see the operation of God’s spirit in action when there are so many groups, all divided off from one another, but all claiming to be Christ’s disciples? Do you see the devil at work in his final days, knowing that he is about to be sent into a bottomless pit for a thousand years? He is all about “divide and conquer” and his deceptions are hard to spot if you are not well informed about what the Bible says about these difficult times. It is no time to be governed by emotion.

The aim of my posting is not to point fingers and upset people, but to inform in a reasonable manner about how the devil operates, and the fact that Christ cannot be carved up into the thousands of sects who all claim a different truth about him.
There can be only one truth, and the devil has succeeded in hiding that diamond in a pile of broken glass….he broke it so it’s all his.

Only those who seek the inconvenient truth as opposed to the convenient and comfortable lies upon which their faith is founded, will come to the son at God’s invitation. (John 6:65)

Thanks to the institution known as “Christendom”….the devil has a well of confusion with which to deceive those who do not really know the God that Jesus came to teach us about. We have all the information we need available to us at this time, so that there is no real excuse to believe in the cleverly disguised lies that the devil has promoted in this world that he rules. (1 John 5:19) We have to “seek“ the truth and “ search“ for it like it was buried treasure. It wasn’t God who buried it, but only he can give you the right shovel….

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello Angelina, thank you for highlighting this passage of Scripture….
Can we examine it a bit more closely?

What was this passage referring to?
Peter was using this prophesy in Joel to demonstrate what was happening in Jerusalem after the Holy Spirit was poured out on the 120 faithful disciples of Jesus gathered at the Festival of Pentecost….those were demonstrating the miraculous gifts that God’s spirit had produced in them. So what did Peter say…..

”But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’” (ESV)

He was speaking to fellow Jews, many of whom had come to Jerusalem for the festival from foreign countries. He applied Joel’s prophesy to those who were speaking in foreign languages and manifesting other gifts, in order to preach to those Jews in their own language….and attract them to the truth about Jesus…..we learn so much more easily when God’s word is shared in our mother tongue.

Peter spoke of the “last days” because Jerusalem was in its “last days” from God’s perspective back then. No one expected what was to come upon that once great city some years into the future.
Jesus had told his disciples to wait for a sign, in order to flee from the holocaust that was coming. He died in 33 CE.
That “sign” was the Roman armies coming to besiege the city (which happened in 66 CE, some 33 years later) and when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by those military forces, they were to flee to the mountains….but how?…when the armies were already in position to destroy the city? Inexplicably, for some unknown reason, the troops all of a sudden withdrew, allowing the Christians to act on Jesus’ warning…..those who had full faith in his words, obeyed his direction and carried nothing with them except a few provisions as he instructed them. (Matt 21:20-24; Mark 13:14-16)

How difficult it must have been to just pull up stakes and leave their homes, possessions and businesses and go to a place that they had never been before. But the faithful ones did….yet, the Romans did not come back to finish what they started, for four years. Imagine being in that place and waiting to hear news that the city had fallen and its temple destroyed as Jesus had prophesied…? (Matt 24:1-2) But no news came…..would they be tempted to return, thinking that Jesus must have been mistaken? Any who did would have regretted their decision. When the Romans returned in 70CE, the siege of Jerusalem was catastrophic.
Their last days had come and Joel’s prophesy had come true.

What about today, when we are awaiting a much bigger catastrophe, affecting not just one city but the whole world?

“Armageddon” is what Jesus told us would be the final war against satan and his followers, both angelic and human. Our “last days” would also be filled with terror because no one would be able to flee when the the whole world was under siege.….physically, morally and spiritually…”like the days of Noah”, Jesus said his return would be. (Matt 24:37-39) So who or what are “the mountains” to which we must flee in these last days? What is our place of safety?
And like the first Christians, who operated as a single group, how are people today to see the operation of God’s spirit in action when there are so many groups, all divided off from one another, but all claiming to be Christ’s disciples? Do you see the devil at work in his final days, knowing that he is about to be sent into a bottomless pit for a thousand years? He is all about “divide and conquer” and his deceptions are hard to spot if you are not well informed about what the Bible says about these difficult times. It is no time to be governed by emotion.

The aim of my posting is not to point fingers and upset people, but to inform in a reasonable manner about how the devil operates, and the fact that Christ cannot be carved up into the thousands of sects who all claim a different truth about him.
There can be only one truth, and the devil has succeeded in hiding that diamond in a pile of broken glass….he broke it so it’s all his.

Only those who seek the inconvenient truth as opposed to the convenient and comfortable lies upon which their faith is founded, will come to the son at God’s invitation. (John 6:65)

Thanks to the institution known as “Christendom”….the devil has a well of confusion with which to deceive those who do not really know the God that Jesus came to teach us about. We have all the information we need available to us at this time, so that there is no real excuse to believe in the cleverly disguised lies that the devil has promoted in this world that he rules. (1 John 5:19) We have to “seek“ the truth and “ search“ for it like it was buried treasure. It wasn’t God who buried it, but only he can give you the right shovel….

The bible is plain and simple to those with the Holy Spirit to teach us. I received the gift of Knowledge by the Holy Spirit. I've read the bible many times, but after the gift of knowledge, it opened up my understanding. Now I teach the teachers to open their understanding. There is no shovel needed, just the Holy Spirit to open the scripture to you. Rely on Him and don't read opinions from commentaries. They are junk. I've had them all. I've talked to the devil, and I know how deceptive, and what a liar he is.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The one unforgivable sin. Blasphemy of Holy Spirit.

JW's are doomed.

The tricky part is to identify which ”spirit” is operating….there are only two….one is masquerading as the other. Have we made sure that the “spirit” is actually from God, or is it just a clever ruse by a known mimic?

Be careful who you “doom”…..the Jews did that in their opposition to Jesus. (Acts 27:25)

1 Cor 10:12 applies…..

”So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.”

 

[Rockerduck]

The Blasphemy of the HS is a national sin, the rejection of Christ by the Jewish Nation. People today can not commit that sin.

If you reject the Holy Spirit, you are rejecting Jesus Christ. See how that works out for you. Gal. 2:20.
Who lives in you? Are you a Christian?.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The bible is plain and simple to those with the Holy Spirit to teach us. I received the gift of Knowledge by the Holy Spirit. I've read the bible many times, but after the gift of knowledge, it opened up my understanding. Now I teach the teachers to open their understanding. There is no shovel needed, just the Holy Spirit to open the scripture to you. Rely on Him and don't read opinions from commentaries. They are junk. I've had them all. I've talked to the devil, and I know how deceptive, and what a liar he is.

You are free to disregard anything I say…but the one thing you will never be able to claim, is that no one told you of this deception.

And the fact that you claim to have “talked to the devil”, makes your claim even more suspicious….tell me what disciple or apostle ever spoke with the devil? Demons were exorcised, but they are merely his servants.
Only Jesus himself had any kind of interaction with the devil personally….are you Jesus Christ? Or have you placed yourself on his level? Are you the leader of a cult?
Who are your brethren?

 

[Rockerduck]

The tricky part is to identify which ”spirit” is operating….there are only two….one is masquerading as the other. Have we made sure that the “spirit” is actually from God, or is it just a clever ruse by a known mimic?

Be careful who you “doom”…..the Jews did that in their opposition to Jesus. (Acts 27:25)

1 Cor 10:12 applies…..

”So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.”

There is no mistaking the Holy Spirit. Everything the Holy Spirit does is to Glorify Jesus Christ. John 16:13-14

 

[Rockerduck]

You are free to disregard anything I say…but the one thing you will never be able to claim, is that no one told you of this deception.

And the fact that you claim to have “talked to the devil”, makes your claim even more suspicious….tell me what disciple or apostle ever spoke with the devil? Demons were exorcised, but they are merely his servants.
Only Jesus himself had any kind of interaction with the devil personally….are you Jesus Christ? Or have you placed yourself on his level? Are you the leader of a cult?
Who are your brethren?

Lack of faith in the invisible world that Jesus created. I've seen and talked to Angels. Colossians 1:16

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is no mistaking the Holy Spirit.

Yes you can….another powerful deceptive spirit is currently ruling this world…but not for much longer. If you can’t tell the difference then he already has you as his slave. The gifts were to cease for that very reason….look how many claim to have received it and who claim to have healing abilities and such like yourself….what does it prove? Paul said that the gifts would cease because their benefit had succeeded in bringing many to Christ, but miracles are not to be the basis for our faith….if they are, then you never lost the traits of a spiritual baby. And your spiritual encounters would make me run a mile.

And if you teach others this error, you then become accountable for your actions, because you refused to accept the truth….and pass the lies onto others.

Everything the Holy Spirit does is to Glorify Jesus Christ. John 16:13-14

Glorifying Jesus is fine, but all that Jesus did, glorified his Father, not himself. He knew his place as the “anointed” “holy servant” of his God and Father. (Acts 4:27)

Lack of faith in the invisible world that Jesus created. I've seen and talked to Angels. Colossians 1:16

I do not lack faith in the invisible world…but I know who inhabits it, and who is at work 24/7 trying to make his lies look like truth and the truth appear to be lies. Since he has the majority of the human race fooled (1 John 5:19)….what are the odds that you might be right? The Bible is all we have to determine what is truth…and you are right about the commentaries etc….but the Bible itself teaches one truth, not many.

The “diamond” is hidden in that pile of broken glass…..but the “diamond” will be revealed only to those who love the truth. No one, not even the miracle workers can claim that they have it, if God didn’t give it to them.

And God’s people are united in one truth, in a global brotherhood (1 Cor 1:10)….please tell us….who are your brotherhood?

 

[Rockerduck]

Yes you can….another powerful deceptive spirit is currently ruling this world…but not for much longer. If you can’t tell the difference then he already has you as his slave. The gifts were to cease for that very reason….look how many claim to have received it and who claim to have healing abilities and such like yourself….what does it prove? Paul said that the gifts would cease because their benefit had succeeded in bringing many to Christ, but miracles are not to be the basis for our faith….if they are, then you never lost the traits of a spiritual baby. And your spiritual encounters would make me run a mile.

And if you teach others this error, you then become accountable for your actions, because you refused to accept the truth….and pass the lies onto others.

Glorifying Jesus is fine, but all that Jesus did, glorified his Father, not himself. He knew his place as the “anointed” “holy servant” of his God and Father. (Acts 4:27)


I do not lack faith in the invisible world…but I know who inhabits it, and who is at work 24/7 trying to make his lies look like truth and the truth appear to be lies. Since he has the majority of the human race fooled (1 John 5:19)….what are the odds that you might be right? The Bible is all we have to determine what is truth…and you are right about the commentaries etc….but the Bible itself teaches one truth, not many.

The “diamond” is hidden in that pile of broken glass…..but the “diamond” will be revealed only to those who love the truth. No one, not even the miracle workers can claim that they have it, if God didn’t give it to them.

And God’s people are united in one truth, in a global brotherhood (1 Cor 1:10)….please tell us….who are your brotherhood?

A deceptive spirit is not the Holy Spirit that indwells a believer, the elect, the chosen of God. You cannot understand without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. John 16:14 is clear, He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you., Jesus does not pray for the world. Jesus prays for His own and His sheep know His voice. Have you heard His voice? Well Jesus's sheep have.

 

[AngelicArcher]

The Blasphemy of the HS is a national sin, the rejection of Christ by the Jewish Nation. People today can not commit that sin.

Not true.

 

[KUWN]

The Blasphemy of the HS is a national sin, the rejection of Christ by the Jewish Nation. People today can not commit that sin.

Not true.

Ok. You have convinced me. May I add that this was a brilliant response. Do you have any theological education?

 

[KUWN]

If you reject the Holy Spirit, you are rejecting Jesus Christ.

I agree. The Trinity dwells in me.

 

[Rockerduck]

My friend, you need to check yourself in to some facility that works on mental delusion. I am serious, I know you are lying, but I am sure you get a thrill out of posting such nonsense.

Go back to your bible and read it. Give me the scripture for your post.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You wrote: because the church was no longer praying as it had. This is the definition of speculation. You often mention biblical conclusions with little to no support. That is a very dangerous position to hold.

Once again you wrote: But they didn't until the church was finally falling into spiritual lethargy, and even then they have never ceased entirely to this day.
Here is another speculative statement. Just a statement without any support. I wish you would provide justification for your belief.

Church fathers. If I have time I will find it for you, but I'm not making it up.

Paul assumed that the Rapture was going to happen in his lifetime (and we who remain will be caught up....). Note that Paul included himself among those who were going to see the Rapture. The early church had no more knowledge of WHEN Christ was going to come than we do today.

Epistle of Barnabas, but again, I don't have time at the moment.

But also, you need to wrestle with Heb 2:3,4 (explain it in such a way to show your position is right); your post does not address my post. It is irrefutable

No, it's not irrefutable. You are making too much of your "temporal" argument to add words to text that are not there. συνεπιμαρτυροῦντος τοῦ θεοῦ is present active, not past tense, and you are adding the word "while" when it is not in the Greek.

Erastus stayed in the city of Corinth and I left Trophimus in the city of Miletus because he was sick (Paul's healing power had ceased. 2 Tim 4.20). I think it can be supported that miracles and other miraculous gifts ceased with the death of Apostle John.

No. Just because common sicknesses were not being healed does not equate to that healings were no longer taking place. It's fallacious. Many were sick and dying in the church at Corinth. Are you arguing that the supernatural gifts had already ceased by then, yes or no?