Why I Am a Cessationist

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Aunty Jane

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Is this a competition for cleverness? If you know something that is constructive why don't you just share it. Holding things above others like that is....well it can be discerned what it is.
One of Jesus’ greatest teaching tools was questions……why? Because questions reveal what a person knows as opposed to what a person ‘thinks’ they know, or how little, or much they know about any subject.
When we are debating “unorthodox“ subjects with people who hold “orthodox” views, there is bound to be controversy.

It’s not a competition at all, but an opportunity to reveal what people believe and why they believe it.
Once you know a person’s beliefs better, there is a better basis for discussion, provided that knowledge of the subject matter is clearly stated in the Bible. It reveals the difference between “Christianity“ and what some call……”churchianity”. The difference is huge as Christendoms denominations continue to grow in the thousands.

Was the question I asked a difficult one? How could it be when this one prayer is uttered by so many professed Christians around the world every single day?

Can I ask the same question of you? What would you answer?
 

marks

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John 13:34-35
34
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
I just saw your post here, you did not disappoint!

For me one of the greatest expressions of love was when not only did Jesus pray that the Father forgive Jesus' murderers even while they were in the act of murdering them, but He chose to remain in the midst of torment in order to proved life for them.

Much love!
 

marks

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Another cut n paste :(
Why don't you just skip over it if you are not interested? Personally I've found @Johann to have a good sense for where to find good material. I've learned much, and confirmed much I've previously learned.

Much love!
 
J

Johann

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Why don't you just skip over it if you are not interested? Personally I've found @Johann to have a good sense for where to find good material. I've learned much, and confirmed much I've previously learned.
This brother, @marks , has pursued me relentlessly. He banned me from Berean Bible Ministry, him and his buddy Mike where he runs the show, frequently copying and pasting without crediting his sources. Now, he is here, goading and stalking me relentlessly.

Commentary
In Christian ministry, integrity and respect for others are paramount. When engaging in discussions about scripture and doctrine, it is crucial to maintain a spirit of humility and honesty. The situation described reveals several critical issues:

Respecting Contributions: When sharing insights or teachings, it is vital to credit sources. This practice not only honors the original authors but also ensures transparency and fosters a culture of respect and integrity within the community.

Handling Conflict: Relentless pursuit or harassment contradicts the biblical mandate to love one another and live in peace. Jesus taught in Matthew 5:44 (KJV), "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." Addressing conflicts with grace and forgiveness is essential for maintaining unity in the body of Christ.

Leadership Responsibility: Leaders in any ministry are called to set an example of godliness and humility. 1 Peter 5:2-3 (KJV) exhorts leaders to "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock." Authentic leadership requires humility, transparency, and a servant's heart.

Constructive Engagement: Engaging in theological discussions should build up the body of Christ, not tear it down. Ephesians 4:29 (KJV) advises, "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." Conversations should be conducted in a spirit of edification, aiming to enlighten and encourage one another in the faith.

By adhering to these biblical principles, we can foster a more respectful and edifying environment in our communities, even amidst disagreements and conflicts.

I give credit to all my sources and strive to be transparent in all my endeavors giving God the glory and hopefully edifying other members
Thanks for bringing this to my attention, much appreciated-love you my brother in Christ Jesus.
Johann.
 
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marks

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This brother, @marks , has pursued me relentlessly. He banned me from Berean Bible Ministry, him and his buddy Mike where he runs the show, frequently copying and pasting without crediting his sources. Now, he is here, goading and stalking me relentlessly.
I didn't know that . . .
By adhering to these biblical principles, we can foster a more respectful and edifying environment in our communities, even amidst disagreements and conflicts.
I agree! And I believe we can see the difference in those who act in these ways, do we not?

Much love!
 
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Lizbeth

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One of Jesus’ greatest teaching tools was questions……why? Because questions reveal what a person knows as opposed to what a person ‘thinks’ they know, or how little, or much they know about any subject.
When we are debating “unorthodox“ subjects with people who hold “orthodox” views, there is bound to be controversy.

It’s not a competition at all, but an opportunity to reveal what people believe and why they believe it.
Once you know a person’s beliefs better, there is a better basis for discussion, provided that knowledge of the subject matter is clearly stated in the Bible. It reveals the difference between “Christianity“ and what some call……”churchianity”. The difference is huge as Christendoms denominations continue to grow in the thousands.

Was the question I asked a difficult one? How could it be when this one prayer is uttered by so many professed Christians around the world every single day?

Can I ask the same question of you? What would you answer?
Sure but you aren't anybody's "teacher" here that I know of....and Jesus didn't go around calling people clueless....??
 
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Aunty Jane

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I just saw your post here, you did not disappoint!

For me one of the greatest expressions of love was when not only did Jesus pray that the Father forgive Jesus' murderers even while they were in the act of murdering them, but He chose to remain in the midst of torment in order to proved life for them.
Is this true? Did Jesus pray for his Father to forgive his murderers?

Didn't Jesus consign the Pharisees as a collective to “Gehenna”? (Matt 23:33)
Those false teachers were never to be forgiven for what they did.

Jesus was not asking God to forgive the wicked men who orchestrated his execution, he was asking forgiveness for the Roman soldiers who drove the nails into his flesh and hung him up to die as a convicted criminal, these were the ones who “knew not what they did”……they were just carrying out orders from their superiors….they did not have a clue as to what was really happening, until the earthquake occurred….(Matt 27:54)

The Pharisees were determined to rid themselves of this Jesus who was making them look bad….attributing his miracles to Beelzebub.
They knew that he had broken no law, but accused him of blasphemy for claiming to be “the son of God”. (John 10:31-36)
That was not blasphemous, but they were determined to have him put to death, so when Pilate found him “not guilty” of any crime, they threatened to report him to Caesar for treason. Bullied into submission he handed a battered Jesus over to them after washing his hands of the whole mess……the people, whipped up by their hateful leaders, clamored for his death, cursing themselves with Jesus’ blood. (Matt 27:25) They got their wish.
 

Aunty Jane

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Sure but you aren't anybody's "teacher" here that I know of....and Jesus didn't go around calling people clueless....??
This is a forum for “unorthodox” discussion…..imparting knowledge on a Bible discussion forum is not against the rules here, last time I looked. People can read or not read…it’s up to them, not you or I.

And if someone’s response to a reasonable question is a clueless emoji…..then what was the problem in calling them out for such a meaningless response? It was a simple question, but even you seem reluctant to answer it…..can I ask why?
 

Lizbeth

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This is a forum for “unorthodox” discussion…..imparting knowledge on a Bible discussion forum is not against the rules here, last time I looked. People can read or not read…it’s up to them, not you or I.

And if someone’s response to a reasonable question is a clueless emoji…..then what was the problem in calling them out for such a meaningless response? It was a simple question, but even you seem reluctant to answer it…..can I ask why?
Think he was responding to your whole post. Rolling one's eyes....communicates something.

In my case I'm not answering because it feels like entrapment more than a sincere effort to share instruction. And also I find it annoying when people ask non-rhetorical questions like that on forums in general when they can easily just say what they have in mind. It comes across as high-handed and "teachery" somehow.....it seems to put people under an "obligation" to answer.
 
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Johann

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I didn't know that . . .
I have reported him, nothing happened and to be frank, he is a fraud, don't ask me how I know it @marks
11:23 PM in South Africa
Shalom to you and family.
I love Matthew 25-walk the talk, not talk the walk, up with the sleeves and down with the ease, this from a Messianic brother Robert.
Johann.
 
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Johann

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Think he was responding to your whole post. Rolling one's eyes....communicates something.

In my case I'm not answering because it feels like entrapment more than a sincere effort to share instruction. And also I find it annoying when people ask non-rhetorical questions like that on forums in general when they can easily just say what they have in mind. It comes across as high-handed and "teachery" somehow.....it seems to put people under an "obligation" to answer.
Matthew 5:37 (KJV):
"But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." Most here are pontificating and philosophizing, you know who I'm referring to.
Have a blessed day sister
J.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Think he was responding to your whole post. Rolling one's eyes....communicates something.
Rolling one’s eyes when asked a relatively simple question is avoiding answering it. Was there something in the explanation that was too difficult to understand?
You have done the same thing…..why are you avoiding the question?
In my case I'm not answering because it feels like entrapment more than a sincere effort to share instruction. And also I find it annoying when people ask non-rhetorical questions like that on forums in general when they can easily just say what they have in mind.
Why is it “entrapment” when all I wanted to know was what it means when the most quoted prayer is met with silence when asked “what are you praying for?”

It demonstrates something, don’t you think? If it is a universal prayer in all denominations, then Jesus was teaching us the most important things to include in our own prayers. He never said…”pray this prayer”…he said “pray this way”, which is a whole other thing….
It comes across as high-handed and "teachery" somehow.....it seems to put people under an "obligation" to answer.
Oh dear…are we paranoid about about what “high-handed treachery“ is attached to a relatively simple question?…..the fact that people find it difficult to explain something they have offered to God as a prayer by rote, for centuries now….. is telling, don’t you think? How could this question possibly create a problem for sincere and informed believers?
You tell me….
 

Wick Stick

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Rolling one’s eyes when asked a relatively simple question is avoiding answering it.
I guess that's for me? I didn't read your whole post. I read the first sentence, saw that you had tripled down on a ridiculous position, rolled my eyes, and moved on.
 
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Aunty Jane

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I guess that's for me? I didn't read your whole post. I read the first sentence, saw that you had tripled down on a ridiculous position, rolled my eyes, and moved on.
Guess you missed the parts that would have explained my position. You rolled your eyes but didn’t read what I wrote…..? Where is the discussion?
You are in the “unorthodox forum”…..did you expect that “orthodox” beliefs would go unchallenged?
 

Wick Stick

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Guess you missed the parts that would have explained my position. You rolled your eyes but didn’t read what I wrote…..? Where is the discussion?
You are in the “unorthodox forum”…..did you expect that “orthodox” beliefs would go unchallenged?
Do you even know what you're talking about any more? You're the one with the orthodox position here.
 

Aunty Jane

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Do you even know what you're talking about any more? You're the one with the orthodox position here.
c’mon…enough with the deflections now…..can you answer my simple question or not…..it’s not rocket science.
 
J

Johann

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“What does the Lord’s Prayer mean?” What was Jesus teaching us to pray for….?
Justin Johnson
Jesus prayed many times. Remember the morning prayers in solitary places (Mark 1:35), the prayer before feeding the thousands (Matt 14:19), the prayer for Peter’s faith (Luke 22:32), the prayers in the garden of Gethsemane (Matt 26:36), and the glorious prayer in John 17.

But Jesus never prayed what is popularly called the Lord’s Prayer, and he would be a sinner if he did.

You know the one. It starts with “Our Father which art in heaven…” in Matthew 6:9.

In the context of Matthew 6 and in the parallel passage in Luke 11 Jesus was teaching his disciples to pray, not praying it himself.

“…one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.” – Luke 11:1
He didn’t say “after this manner pray I”, but “after this manner therefore pray YE” (Matt 6:8). For this reason the so-called Lord’s Prayer would be more appropriately called the Disciples Prayer.


Why Jesus Could Not Pray the Lord’s Prayer

It should be obvious that Jesus never actually prayed the prayer repeated by millions (though Jesus instructed them not to pray using vain repetitions- Matt 6:7). He was merely teaching his disciples how to pray.

So what? What is important to understand is that if he did pray it, he would have been a sinner, and so is everyone else that prays it.

The prayer includes this line:

“And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.” – Luke 11:4
Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, and knew no sin (1 Tim 3:16; Col 2:9; 2 Cor 5:21). Jesus had no sins to confess, and did not need to ask for forgiveness. He was without sin (Heb 4:15).

If Jesus prayed to “forgive me my sins”, he would either be a liar or admitting to be a sinner. So you see, Jesus could never pray this prayer since it would mean he had sins that need to be forgiven. This prayer was only for his disciples who were sinners.

Jesus never prayed this prayer and neither should we.

Why We Shouldn’t Pray this Prayer

Since Jesus was sinless, then it should be easy to understand why he could never pray this prayer, but what does that have to do with us? We are not God manifest in the flesh; we are not sinless; we are not Jesus and this much is true.

We know that we all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23), and certainly we need forgiveness.

However, according to the gospel of the grace of God, Christ from heaven is now offering his righteousness, through his blood, as forgiveness for all our sins (Col 1:14; Col 2:13).

In Matthew 6 God was teaching his twelve apostles over Israels (Matt 19:28) to pray to bring God’s Davidic kingdom to earth (Matt 6:10), to provide bread like manna in the wilderness (Matt 6:11), and to pray for conditional covenant forgiveness (Matt 6:12-15).

In Matthew 6 and Luke 11 when Christ taught his disciples to pray it was before the cross and before he revealed the gospel of the grace of God (Eph 3:1-2). Jesus taught Israel to pray according to their covenant with God, and not according to the revelation of the mystery of his finished work on the cross. The cross is nowhere found in Matthew 6.

The dispensation of God’s grace changed how we receive forgiveness which is now by faith in Christ’s finished work (Eph 1:7). For us to pray the so-called Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6 would be tantamount to ignoring the cross of Christ as the basis of our forgiveness.

Praise God that now that God’s grace has been revealed, all men can be forgiven through the already shed blood of Christ (Eph 3:1-2; Rom 3:23-25). Once all our sins are forgiven through faith in Christ’s cross there is no more need to pray for forgiveness, but to thank God for what he has already done in us for Christ’s sake (Eph 4:32).

Jesus never prayed the so-called Lord’s prayer and now, if you trust the preaching of the cross, neither should you.
 
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