You can interject @marksJustin Johnson
Jesus prayed many times. Remember the morning prayers in solitary places (Mark 1:35), the prayer before feeding the thousands (Matt 14:19), the prayer for Peter’s faith (Luke 22:32), the prayers in the garden of Gethsemane (Matt 26:36), and the glorious prayer in John 17.
But Jesus never prayed what is popularly called the Lord’s Prayer, and he would be a sinner if he did.
You know the one. It starts with “Our Father which art in heaven…” in Matthew 6:9.
In the context of Matthew 6 and in the parallel passage in Luke 11 Jesus was teaching his disciples to pray, not praying it himself.
“…one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.” – Luke 11:1
He didn’t say “after this manner pray I”, but “after this manner therefore pray YE” (Matt 6:8). For this reason the so-called Lord’s Prayer would be more appropriately called the Disciples Prayer.
Why Jesus Could Not Pray the Lord’s Prayer
It should be obvious that Jesus never actually prayed the prayer repeated by millions (though Jesus instructed them not to pray using vain repetitions- Matt 6:7). He was merely teaching his disciples how to pray.
So what? What is important to understand is that if he did pray it, he would have been a sinner, and so is everyone else that prays it.
The prayer includes this line:
“And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.” – Luke 11:4
Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, and knew no sin (1 Tim 3:16; Col 2:9; 2 Cor 5:21). Jesus had no sins to confess, and did not need to ask for forgiveness. He was without sin (Heb 4:15).
If Jesus prayed to “forgive me my sins”, he would either be a liar or admitting to be a sinner. So you see, Jesus could never pray this prayer since it would mean he had sins that need to be forgiven. This prayer was only for his disciples who were sinners.
Jesus never prayed this prayer and neither should we.
Why We Shouldn’t Pray this Prayer
Since Jesus was sinless, then it should be easy to understand why he could never pray this prayer, but what does that have to do with us? We are not God manifest in the flesh; we are not sinless; we are not Jesus and this much is true.
We know that we all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23), and certainly we need forgiveness.
However, according to the gospel of the grace of God, Christ from heaven is now offering his righteousness, through his blood, as forgiveness for all our sins (Col 1:14; Col 2:13).
In Matthew 6 God was teaching his twelve apostles over Israels (Matt 19:28) to pray to bring God’s Davidic kingdom to earth (Matt 6:10), to provide bread like manna in the wilderness (Matt 6:11), and to pray for conditional covenant forgiveness (Matt 6:12-15).
In Matthew 6 and Luke 11 when Christ taught his disciples to pray it was before the cross and before he revealed the gospel of the grace of God (Eph 3:1-2). Jesus taught Israel to pray according to their covenant with God, and not according to the revelation of the mystery of his finished work on the cross. The cross is nowhere found in Matthew 6.
The dispensation of God’s grace changed how we receive forgiveness which is now by faith in Christ’s finished work (Eph 1:7). For us to pray the so-called Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6 would be tantamount to ignoring the cross of Christ as the basis of our forgiveness.
Praise God that now that God’s grace has been revealed, all men can be forgiven through the already shed blood of Christ (Eph 3:1-2; Rom 3:23-25). Once all our sins are forgiven through faith in Christ’s cross there is no more need to pray for forgiveness, but to thank God for what he has already done in us for Christ’s sake (Eph 4:32).
Jesus never prayed the so-called Lord’s prayer and now, if you trust the preaching of the cross, neither should you.
Jesus Never Prayed the Lord’s Prayer
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I think Justin has it right, this prayer is within the dispensation of the time. Comparing to Paul's prayers shows key differences, like this matter of forgiveness.
We are to forgive because we have been forgiven, not so that we can receive forgiveness.
Much love!
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Sure, I'll bite. Why not?
The "Lord's Prayer" teaches a practical application of the Hermetic axiom "As Above, So Below." The disciple is taught to seek for God's will, as manifest above in the heavens, to come to pass here below in the earth. Abnegation of physical necessities is a key component. Basic human needs, typified as "daily bread" are not to be sought, but will be "given" when one seeks God's will instead. Essentially the same teaching is given explicitly a few chapters earlier in Matthew:
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matt 6)
Now, a question for you... What on earth does that have to do with the existence of apostles in the modern era? Nothing... I think.
And we are to show mercy because much mercy has been given us-daily I marvel the tender mercies of our Lord and Savior and our Abba-I should have been dead many times but by His grace I'm still here.
I should have been dead when I was 18, from a 4X drug overdose, but I hadn't been reborn yet, and God had mercy on me, and saved my life that day.
Much love!
"teachery", not treachery.
Sister you wrote an entire lengthy post and I responded to it as I wanted, as did WickStick in his own way. Why are you fixated on one question out of an entire post that you wrote? I have no idea how you are linking the Lord's prayer to the subject at hand, but if you would like to explain, please feel free, as you have been free to do all along. And you haven't responded at all to my post, but I will not try to back you up against a wall and force you to answer it. You are just as free to answer or ignore posts or parts of posts as I am. Shouldn't we just get back to the subject at hand?
lol, I didn't even know we were in the "Unorthodox forum" . I should wear a sign, "Old Lady Alert...not likely to improve with age, so Beware!"
To me I consider the Lord speaking to His own and moving in signs and miracles to be quite orthodox....just another day at the office for Him. Not that they have to happen every day, but just that when they do, it's orthodox, because Jesus did them and the early church. He even admonishes us to have faith for them.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I am not sure who Justin Johnson is…..but he is correct about why Jesus could not have prayed that prayer himself, and why he taught his disciples to pray correctly.
Yes, repetitive prayers were never encouraged. Prayer is a private conversation between us and Jehovah. As Jesus said…Matt 6:5-8…
”Also, when you pray, do not act like the hypocrites, for they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the main streets to be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. 7 When praying, do not say the same things over and over again as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. 8 So do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need+ even before you ask him.
9 “You must pray, then, this way:……”
So for our personal prayers, it was his instruction to pray for things in order of importance.
However, the first and most important thing is overlooked…..”Hallowed be thy name”….
Why is this not viewed as important? Why the stumbling over God’s name as though “Jesus“ is not as inappropriate as “Jehovah” if one is going to quibble over translation. There are no “J” names in Hebrew…should we rewrite the whole Bible then….?
Exactly….
And interestingly, God’s purpose concerning his Kingdom has never altered….what he starts, he finishes. (Isa 55:11) If he failed in his first purpose for the human race, (stated in Genesis) defeated by the devil and disobedient humans, and forced to change the reason why he created humankind in the first place…would he be Almighty God?
The purpose of the kingdom was to bring about God’s will “on earth as it is in heaven”…..so it still has its earthly component, but with an increased understanding of its location. Those who will live on “the new earth” will be ruled by “the new heavens”, (2 Pet 3:13) the location of God’s kingdom.
Just because Jesus‘ death provided the permanent basis for forgiveness of sin, did not eliminate it from our lives. Many turn the “grace” of God into an excuse to keep sinning, when Jesus never taught such a thing.
All are sinners until the day they die, and need a basis to offer their repentance to God if they take a wrong turn or make a false step. Until sin is eradicated from the human genome, we can still be overcome by it. (2 Peter 2:20-22)
As above, I disagree with this premise. We “can be forgiven” provided we are repentant, not just for past sins, but for present and future ones, if we are not vigilant. Being a child of Adam sentences to us to death because of the sin in our flesh…that does not miraculously disappear because we choose to follow Christ….didn’t Paul make that clear? (Rom 7:19-25)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
In the context used…not much different I think….”teachery“ has the same meaning if I understood your meaning correctly.…?
Perhaps we should both wear the same sign…..just for different reasons.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Hi Jane- The"Many" that you speak of were also in the days of the apostles. This is why they had to correct them in several places in the NT. Godly pastors find themselves having to remind the church to walk in the spirit not the flesh. That's the only way to avoid sin! And where we find JOY! We all need the reminder as the world can entangle us with day to day business.
Just look at Paul in Romans 6:1-10
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
10Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
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Of course we don't want continue to sin, yet we do fall at times when walking in the flesh not the spirit. The flesh is death- the spirit is life. We are no longer slaves to sin like we once were. We have been graced with the Power of the Spirit! See below............
First of all, Believers are now Children of God not Adam. We cry out, ABBA FATHER!---- A true believer is convicted by the Holy Spirit when he/she sins and then repents. But, we are confident before the throne of grace, and our ONE mediator, Jesus Christ ,who paid the penalty for our sins makes it known in our hearts that we are forgiven. No true believer glories in their sin, but feels awful about it because he/she wants to always do what is pleasing to the Lord. I hope that clears that up!
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No I don't think so....tReachery is betrayal......"tEAchery" is acting like a teacher by treating adult equals as if they were kids and you had authority over them. I meant the latter....no hard feelings.
I don't know what your reasons would be for wearing such a sign, but welcome to the club. :) Not liking this aging business very much, but this too I'm sure God is turning it around for my good.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I must apologise for being a teacher then....I have been one for so long it is a role I assume without thinking a lot of the time. I am a perpetual student of the Bible because I don’t believe anyone can ever know it all, and what I have learned over many decades of study leads me to study deeper and to provide details that are missing for many who only accept church theology on the surface of it. I walked away from theology a long time ago, and accepted the Bible for what it has to say for itself. I found a big picture that I do not believe most people have even a clue about......which is why I asked about God’s Kingdom. Once you know what Christ was teaching us to pray for, everything falls into place. It is the answer to every question.
No one wants to get old....and nobody told me how quickly it happens....but it is a blessing in a way because I don’t think I want to live much longer in this world....my heart is in the new world to come...the one that was taken away from us by those first rebels, making it necessary for God to allow the pretender to take his best shot at ruling the world for a time. This would then prove beyond a shadow of doubt that humans under the devil’s influence can never provide the kind of government that mankind needs.
How many forms of rulership has mankind tried, only for each one to end in failure. The failure of course had only one cause......the misuse of power...a thoroughly corrupting influence for man, and it happens every time. We are not designed to have power over one another.....we are meant to be ruled by our Creator....hence the need for God’s kingdom to “come” and to “crush” all corrupt human governments out of existence (Daniel 2:44) and replace them with the rulership we should have had in the beginning.
God’s first purpose for the human race never went away (Isa 55:11).....it just got detoured whilst God sorted out the abuse of free will in an object lesson that involved not only his human children but also the angels.
A separation has occurred in both realms, and rewards and punishments will be meted out in due course.
For humans, only those who have learned how to drive their free will in accord with the will of God, will gain citizenship in the coming Kingdom. Some of those citizens will be rulers and priests in heaven, but the majority will enjoy life on earth as it was meant to be in the beginning. (Rev 21:2-4)
For the angels, they will have witnessed the outcome for their former brothers who betrayed their Creator and followed the first rebel....they have observed everything from their vantage point.
God has a place reserved for those angelic rebels and the humans influenced by them . (Matt 25:42)
Sorry for the “teachery” again....but it’s who I am.
Sister, I dont know you, and you don't know me. We are just two people on the internet having a conversation. You could be the Queen of Sheba and it wouldn't matter. As I said you are not my teacher.
Don't think anybody asked you for an apology. You came flying in here making assumptions and insinuations about someone you have never met who had converted to Christ.. You then were trying to FORCE people who have nothing to do with you to answer your question and you used the word clueless in reference to someone's response to your post. If you don't think there is anything wrong with any of that, well, I'll just say perhaps you still have something to learn. But I'm weary of talking about it. Mountain/molehill. You have a blessed day.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Never said I was.....you are not the only reader here. Check out the guest list reading but not posting on these forums. Our conversations are hardly private. Others read our exchanges and make judgments about their contents....not all will make the same judgments, but God is ever watching to see how people respond to the truth, as opposed to the false beliefs promoted by many on these boards. He will tell us all soon enough if we got it right.
The bots frequently outnumber the humans....so make of that what you will.
Hmmmm.....passive aggressive, much? Not to mention one rather twisted side of the story....your interpretation of it....very different to mine. Doesn’t this reinforce why we need both sides? Who is the judge? Not you or me.
Your responses to me are just that.....your words.....like your final sentence there....a slap in the face disguised as a blessing....nice Christianity at work there.
What I post is information...things I have learned from years of study.....it is a passion of mine.....and the asking of questions reveals where people are at with regards to Bible knowledge or education. If I assume that people are knowledgeable when they are not, then I cannot dialogue with them on the same level as someone who is well versed in Scripture. The trouble is, I find that people can be well versed in “theology” but sadly lacking in Bible knowledge. Take them outside of their “theology” and they flounder.
Opponents in a debate should at least be equals with regard to knowledge of the subject matter.....don’t you think?
The emoji posted was revealed by the poster to be a sign that he didn’t read past the first few words....
Emoji’s are not words, but can convey different meanings to the one receiving them. To me he was just backing away from the question I asked him. Words would have avoided that misunderstanding.
It was not an unfair question seeing as how “the Kingdom of God” was the central theme of Jesus’ entire ministry. Yet I frequently see that others have great difficulty explaining just what “the Kingdom of God” actually is......Jesus taught us to pray for it to “come”.....how does it “come”.... and what is it that “comes”?
Why is that “good news” such a difficult thing to explain?
You are again in the “unorthodox forum”.....
You are right....you don’t know me, and I don’t know you, but we have come to this discussion site on opposing sides of probably many debates....which should at all times remain civil, but especially in this forum where the debates can get heated. Otherwise, why are we here? Not to get our knickers in a twist, but to have meaningful dialogue....to give the readers something to chew over....no?
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Think we are having a communication problem. Anyone can share their thoughts and ask questions. But not try to force people to answer them as if they have a right to do that when they don't. "Have a blessed day" was my way of saying good bye, as in terminating my participation in this subject. As I am doing again now. Good bye.
Agree to disagree--I won't be online much longer since I feel this is not good and edifying.
Shalom.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If God’s spirit is guiding us, we will not have doctrinal differences in the first place.....we will have identified them and resolved them, as the first century Christians did. (1 Cor 1:10)
He was speaking to repentant Jews, who were stabbed to the heart over their part in the death of Christ.
The gifts were only for those first Christians so that they could see clearly that God was backing this group and abandoning the ones who murdered their prophets and who had now murdered the one sent to save them. (Matt 23:37-39)
The gifts of the spirit were not to continue.....because the devil had already demonstrated his power to mimic them. If God withdrew them, once Christianity had been firmly established, it would expose the counterfeits...but only to those who have studied God’s word for themselves and know the source of these “powers”. (2 Thess 2:9-12)
The power of God’s spirit unifies his worshippers....he does not give different beliefs to different denominations...that is the decisive work of the devil under the guise a “Christianity” that Jesus will say he “never knew”. (Matt 7:21-23)
Most in the divided church system of Christendom have no idea what God’s Kingdom is, yet it was the main theme of Jesus’ entire ministry.
Can you explain what God’s Kingdom is?....how it “comes”?.....and how it causes God’s will to “be done on earth as it is in heaven”?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What “history” would that be? I take the first century when the apostles were active to be the model for all beliefs and practices.......what came later as the years progressed, was a period where the restraining influence of the apostles was fading into the background, and those charged with keeping Christianity on track, failed to do so, as spiritual slumber took over the congregations and the foretold apostasy had nothing to stop it spreading into every congregation.
Jesus warned.....
“The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”
After the crowd had been dismissed, the disciples asked for an explanation of this parable.....
Jesus said....
“The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.”
“While men were sleeping” is the time when apostasy infiltrated the Christian Faith and they have been spiritually “sleeping” ever since....hanging onto doctrines of men, not teachings of Christ.
Those theological disagreements were settled by the central body of apostles and older men in Jerusalem when the divisive nature of the problem was seen to be having a bad effect.....so the matter was decided and settled, leaving all on the same page, under the authority of the apostles and those appointed as leaders and teachers. There could be no dissenters because they were guided by the ones whom Jesus personally taught.
When the first century was drawing to a close, only the apostle John was left.....the last man alive who was to resist the “weeds” from infiltrating until his last contribution to Scripture had been penned.
If the Holy Spirit is operative...there can be no divisions or doctrinal differences....God’s spirit does not speak with a forked tongue......it’s the pretender who has one of those. The Holy Spirit does not tell various versions of the one truth. Why would that ever be the case?
And that is so important.....”always pointing back to the foundational truths of Scripture”.....the trouble is that the ones who introduced those doctrines that were never part of Scripture, ended up substituting these man-made doctrines for the truth of God’s word. It happened in Judaism in exactly the same way. (Matt 15:7-9)
How many of the doctrines that all of Christendom holds in common are actually Bible teachings, and not pagan ideas dressed up to resemble Christianity, and twisting the Scriptures to make them fit. How much of what you accept as truth was originally formulated by the Roman Catholic church?...an institution so horribly corrupted that it did not resemble the Christianity that Jesus taught in any way.
What core “truths” are these? Where will I find them directly (rather than indirectly) the taught by Jesus?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
It seems I came in a little too late on this thread, you seemed to have abandoned it. I know you put lots of effort into it; so I am not asking to reopen it, nor will I refute it with a lengthy rebuttal.
Just a couple questions about 1 person:
What is your opinion of Reinhard Bonnke, an evangelist who has brought 77 million to the Lord in Africa ( confirmed), where crowds of over 1 million at a time attended his crusades and with numerous miracles witnessed as well? Do you think the Apostle Paul, during his life, brought that many to the Lord? I'm sure he must have frequently visited South Africa.
Don't you think the Holy Spirit empowered
him with spiritual gifts?
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