Why I Am a Cessationist

[Johann]

What does it matter if I did not include the lessor gifts when you have excluded the greater gifts? I tell you--it does not matter.

As for the reformers and early fathers of the church, none held to all that was taught and spoken by Christ.

I don't know what TULIP is, other than a flower.

I beg to differ-big time brother-you say they didn't?

Early Church Fathers
Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-107 AD)

Quote: "For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the manifest will of the Father: as also bishops, settled everywhere to the utmost bounds [of the earth], are so by the will of Jesus Christ." (Letter to the Ephesians, Chapter 3)
Explanation: Ignatius emphasizes adherence to the will of Jesus Christ, reflecting his commitment to Christ’s teachings as central to the Christian faith.
Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202 AD)

Quote: "Since, therefore, the entire Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it." (Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 10)
Explanation: Irenaeus highlights the unity of the Church in preserving the teachings of Christ, showing his dedication to maintaining the integrity of Christ's message.
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD)

Quote: "He, indeed, who believes the divine Scriptures with sure judgment, receives in his soul the active power of the Word, who is the wisdom of God, and, consequently, the spirit of discernment." (Stromata, Book 7, Chapter 16)

Explanation: Clement underscores the importance of the divine Scriptures, which include the teachings of Christ, indicating his commitment to these teachings as foundational for Christian life.
Reformers
Martin Luther (1483-1546)

Quote: "Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God." (Diet of Worms, 1521)

Explanation: Luther’s stance at the Diet of Worms shows his profound adherence to the teachings of Christ as recorded in the Scriptures, prioritizing them over any other authority.

John Calvin (1509-1564)

Quote: "Let this be a firm principle: no other word is to be held as the Word of God, and given place as such in the church, than what is contained first in the Law and the Prophets, then in the writings of the Apostles; and the only authorized way of teaching in the church is by the prescription and standard of His Word." (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 4, Chapter 8)

Explanation: Calvin’s emphasis on Scripture as the sole standard for teaching in the church reflects his commitment to the teachings of Christ as contained within the biblical canon.

Huldrych Zwingli (1484-1531)

Quote: "The sum and substance of our religion is Christ, whom it is a sin to desert, whom it is even worse to replace by human fictions." (The Sixty-seven Articles of Huldrych Zwingli, Article 2)

Explanation: Zwingli’s statement highlights his dedication to Christ and His teachings, rejecting any human additions or deviations from the original message of the gospel.

Conclusion
The early Church Fathers and the Reformers both exhibited a strong commitment to preserving and adhering to the teachings of Christ. They held the Scriptures in high regard, viewed them as the ultimate authority, and strove to align their beliefs and practices with the teachings of Jesus. This correction illustrates that significant figures from both periods did indeed hold firmly to the teachings of Christ.

--contrary what you just affirmed brother.

Johann

 

[Johann]

Have we not had this "Preterist" conversation before? (I am not a Preterist)

Stop assuming.

You are acting and responding as those in Israel who knew the scriptures, but still crucified Christ. The point is--this is that same time for the gentiles, and just as Israel failed during their final generation before that transition that occurred with Christ, so too are the gentiles repeating the same mistakes.

I HAVE to assume, so you are not a Preterist and I am not crucifying the risen Messiah, that is YOUR assumption-clearly deflection and miscommunication yet again-as to your last line I need Scriptures as to WHAT mistakes the Goyim are repeating.
Thanks
J.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I can answer these together.

Yes. That was his testimony. He was the founder of several churches in Nepal, and was traveling through America at someone's invitation. His testimony was that He had been a leader in another religion, and that He had converted to Christianity when the risen Jesus appeared to him in his locked room one night, showed him his nail-pierced wrists, and told him that he would now be following a new religion and starting churches.

And no one questioned him about his “vision”? No one thought that perhaps the old “angel of light” trick might have had the devil doing his thing here…? We know what deception is…right? How would you know the source of this ‘visitation’? How would he even know? You have to have a sound knowledge of Scripture to stand against “the crafty acts of the devil”.

How would I evaluate such a claim? I would first of all ask what Bible truths he was told to be teaching when he set up these churches, and the Scriptural basis for them. This would tell me straight away if he was from God….but I do not believe that God operates that way anymore. The gifts were withdrawn for a very good reason….the future was to see satan cast down to the earth and on a mission to mislead all that he could.
People would have to try and separate the real miracles from the fake ones. By withdrawing the real ones, only the fake ones remain for the uneducated and misinformed.

If he taught what the rest of Christendom teaches, I would strongly suspect that he had been sent by the wrong “god”, since I do not see the endlessly divided churches of Christendom teaching or practicing what Christ taught at all.
Jesus said that satan was going to sow seeds of counterfeit Christianity in the world, and what better way than to provide a man like this, with a testimony like his, involving a supernatural experience that he would never have been able to prove. People believe because they want to, but if this man was visited by the devil and was pretending to be Christ, consider the consequences….

A point of interest - at no point did he ever call himself "apostle" or "prophet" or any title other than pastor. It wasn't until a day later when I was talking with my friend that we both tentatively raised the same point and agreed that he met all the criteria to be an apostle - that is, he had received a commission from the risen Lord to go start churches. I think it was you that correctly gave this as the definition of an apostle in this topic.

The devil knows how to deceive and is out to blind “even the elect” if he can…..where does that leave the ordinary folk who might not ever have studied the Bible for themselves and who fall prey to this very thing, because they prefer to be spoon fed in their gullibility, rather than to feed themselves?

Supernatural stuff intrigues them, but we are warned in Scripture to avoid such things.
The Pharisees accused Jesus of using power from the devil…..that also works for him in reverse.

 

[ScottA]

I beg to differ-big time brother-you say they didn't?

Early Church Fathers
Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-107 AD)

Quote: "For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the manifest will of the Father: as also bishops, settled everywhere to the utmost bounds [of the earth], are so by the will of Jesus Christ." (Letter to the Ephesians, Chapter 3)
Explanation: Ignatius emphasizes adherence to the will of Jesus Christ, reflecting his commitment to Christ’s teachings as central to the Christian faith.
Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202 AD)

Quote: "Since, therefore, the entire Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it." (Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 10)
Explanation: Irenaeus highlights the unity of the Church in preserving the teachings of Christ, showing his dedication to maintaining the integrity of Christ's message.
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD)

Quote: "He, indeed, who believes the divine Scriptures with sure judgment, receives in his soul the active power of the Word, who is the wisdom of God, and, consequently, the spirit of discernment." (Stromata, Book 7, Chapter 16)

Explanation: Clement underscores the importance of the divine Scriptures, which include the teachings of Christ, indicating his commitment to these teachings as foundational for Christian life.
Reformers
Martin Luther (1483-1546)

Quote: "Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God." (Diet of Worms, 1521)

Explanation: Luther’s stance at the Diet of Worms shows his profound adherence to the teachings of Christ as recorded in the Scriptures, prioritizing them over any other authority.

John Calvin (1509-1564)

Quote: "Let this be a firm principle: no other word is to be held as the Word of God, and given place as such in the church, than what is contained first in the Law and the Prophets, then in the writings of the Apostles; and the only authorized way of teaching in the church is by the prescription and standard of His Word." (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 4, Chapter 8)

Explanation: Calvin’s emphasis on Scripture as the sole standard for teaching in the church reflects his commitment to the teachings of Christ as contained within the biblical canon.

Huldrych Zwingli (1484-1531)

Quote: "The sum and substance of our religion is Christ, whom it is a sin to desert, whom it is even worse to replace by human fictions." (The Sixty-seven Articles of Huldrych Zwingli, Article 2)

Explanation: Zwingli’s statement highlights his dedication to Christ and His teachings, rejecting any human additions or deviations from the original message of the gospel.

Conclusion
The early Church Fathers and the Reformers both exhibited a strong commitment to preserving and adhering to the teachings of Christ. They held the Scriptures in high regard, viewed them as the ultimate authority, and strove to align their beliefs and practices with the teachings of Jesus. This correction illustrates that significant figures from both periods did indeed hold firmly to the teachings of Christ.

--contrary what you just affirmed brother.

Johann

It is pointless to list what the early church fathers did not miss and believed, when the issue rather is what they did miss and believed to the contrary. Even so, what man meant for evil, God meant for good. Still, it is not good to side with or defend their error.

They have answered for themselves. Now it is this generations turn.

 

[Johann]

There is no need for you to repeat the errors of what was not fully understood and falsely taught. Please, history does not--will not repeat itself on this matter.

So-clearly you don't have an answer to this-I assume?

 

[Johann]

It is pointless to list what the early church fathers did not miss and believed, when the issue rather is what they did miss and believed to the contrary. Even so, what man meant for evil, God meant for good. Still, it is not good to side with or defend their error.

They have answered for themselves. Now it is this generations turn.

And don't you think this generation is more worldly, live like the world, act like the world, smell like the world and a massive apostasy from the truth, currently and globally?

"It is important to acknowledge both the beliefs and practices of the early Church Fathers that aligned with the teachings of Christ, as well as those areas where they may have deviated or held different interpretations. While some of their teachings and actions might be viewed critically, it is also essential to recognize that their efforts contributed significantly to the foundation and spread of Christianity. God, in His sovereignty, has often used imperfect human efforts for His greater purposes. However, it is not beneficial to endorse or perpetuate their errors. Instead, we should strive to discern truth from error, upholding what is good and correcting what is not in accordance with Scripture."

So it is not good for you to endorse and perpetuate their errors, don't you think?

 

[ScottA]

I HAVE to assume, so you are not a Preterist and I am not crucifying the risen Messiah, that is YOUR assumption-clearly deflection and miscommunication yet again-as to your last line I need Scriptures as to WHAT mistakes the Goyim are repeating.
Thanks
J.

I'm repeating myself. It serves no purpose to tell you what you have not yet acknowledged as even being part of what is foretold of these times. But you are not there yet. You're not ready. You are still claiming that the church only acted commendably.

But here is what you should be looking at: "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual." Combined with "the Jew first and also for the Greek." Then learn from Israel's mistake, to know what mistakes have also been made among the gentiles.

 

[ScottA]

So-clearly you don't have an answer to this-I assume?

I told you I did and have kept it no secret.

 

[ScottA]

"It is important to acknowledge both the beliefs and practices of the early Church Fathers that aligned with the teachings of Christ, as well as those areas where they may have deviated or held different interpretations. While some of their teachings and actions might be viewed critically, it is also essential to recognize that their efforts contributed significantly to the foundation and spread of Christianity. God, in His sovereignty, has often used imperfect human efforts for His greater purposes. However, it is not beneficial to endorse or perpetuate their errors. Instead, we should strive to discern truth from error, upholding what is good and correcting what is not in accordance with Scripture."

So it is not good for you to endorse and perpetuate their errors, don't you think?

That has been my question of you.

 

[Johann]

But here is what you should be looking at: "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual." Combined with "the Jew first and also for the Greek." Then learn from Israel's mistake, to know what mistakes have also been made among the gentiles.

Oh I'm learning-I am not the average man brother.

Biblical Context and Explanation
"The spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual":

Scripture Reference: 1 Corinthians 15:46
Explanation: Paul, in this passage, discusses the order of resurrection bodies, emphasizing that our current natural body precedes our future spiritual body. The broader principle he articulates can be applied to understanding the unfolding of God's redemptive history, where physical realities and experiences often precede and foreshadow spiritual truths and fulfillment.
"The Jew first and also for the Greek":

Scripture Reference: Romans 1:16
Explanation: Paul asserts the priority of the gospel's proclamation to the Jews, followed by the Gentiles. This reflects the historical reality that Jesus, the Messiah, came to the Jewish people first, fulfilling Old Testament promises, and subsequently extended salvation to the Gentiles.
Learning from Israel's Mistakes

Scripture References: Romans 11; 1 Corinthians 10:1-11
Explanation: Paul often reflects on Israel's history, urging Gentile believers to learn from the mistakes of the Israelites to avoid repeating them. Israel's unbelief, idolatry, and failure to trust in God are cautioned against as examples for the church.

Application for the Gentile Church
Mistakes Among the Gentiles:
Relevance: Just as Israel's history serves as a lesson, so too does the history of the Gentile church. Understanding these mistakes is crucial for faithfulness to God's will.

Common Mistakes:
Legalism and License: Just as Israel struggled with the Law, Gentile Christians have often swung between legalism (strict adherence to laws) and antinomianism (disregard for moral law).

Idolatry: Modern idolatry can take various forms, such as materialism, nationalism, or other priorities that take precedence over God.
Division: Like Israel's internal divisions, the church has faced schisms and denominational splits, often over non-essential issues.
Complacency: Both Israel and the church have struggled with complacency and a lack of zeal for God’s mission.
Hence-----
In understanding that "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual," and recognizing "the Jew first and also for the Greek," we are reminded to honor the sequence and priorities in God’s plan. By learning from Israel's mistakes, the Gentile church can better navigate its journey of faith, avoiding pitfalls of past generations. This approach calls for humility, discernment, and a commitment to scriptural truth, ensuring that we do not perpetuate errors but seek continual alignment with God's will.

Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

That has been my question of you.

And I have answered.

 

[ScottA]

Oh I'm learning-I am not the average man brother.

Biblical Context and Explanation
"The spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual":

Scripture Reference: 1 Corinthians 15:46
Explanation: Paul, in this passage, discusses the order of resurrection bodies, emphasizing that our current natural body precedes our future spiritual body. The broader principle he articulates can be applied to understanding the unfolding of God's redemptive history, where physical realities and experiences often precede and foreshadow spiritual truths and fulfillment.
"The Jew first and also for the Greek":

Scripture Reference: Romans 1:16
Explanation: Paul asserts the priority of the gospel's proclamation to the Jews, followed by the Gentiles. This reflects the historical reality that Jesus, the Messiah, came to the Jewish people first, fulfilling Old Testament promises, and subsequently extended salvation to the Gentiles.
Learning from Israel's Mistakes

Scripture References: Romans 11; 1 Corinthians 10:1-11
Explanation: Paul often reflects on Israel's history, urging Gentile believers to learn from the mistakes of the Israelites to avoid repeating them. Israel's unbelief, idolatry, and failure to trust in God are cautioned against as examples for the church.

Application for the Gentile Church
Mistakes Among the Gentiles:
Relevance: Just as Israel's history serves as a lesson, so too does the history of the Gentile church. Understanding these mistakes is crucial for faithfulness to God's will.

Common Mistakes:
Legalism and License: Just as Israel struggled with the Law, Gentile Christians have often swung between legalism (strict adherence to laws) and antinomianism (disregard for moral law).

Idolatry: Modern idolatry can take various forms, such as materialism, nationalism, or other priorities that take precedence over God.
Division: Like Israel's internal divisions, the church has faced schisms and denominational splits, often over non-essential issues.
Complacency: Both Israel and the church have struggled with complacency and a lack of zeal for God’s mission.
Hence-----
In understanding that "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual," and recognizing "the Jew first and also for the Greek," we are reminded to honor the sequence and priorities in God’s plan. By learning from Israel's mistakes, the Gentile church can better navigate its journey of faith, avoiding pitfalls of past generations. This approach calls for humility, discernment, and a commitment to scriptural truth, ensuring that we do not perpetuate errors but seek continual alignment with God's will.

Shalom
J.

That is all good--but what did Israel miss?

 

[Johann]

That is all good--but what did Israel miss?

The true scope, nature and mission of Yeshua HaMashiach-He came to His own[YisraEl/Yehudi/Jews] and His own did not welcome and receive their Yeshua @ScottA

 

[ScottA]

The true scope, nature and mission of Yeshua HaMashiach-He came to His own[YisraEl/Yehudi/Jews] and His own did not welcome and receive their Yeshua @ScottA

And why did they miss Him, what did thy not expect? (Just briefly)

 

[Johann]

And why did they miss Him, what did thy not expect? (Just briefly)

Expectations of a Political Messiah: They expected a powerful political and military leader who would liberate them from Roman rule and restore the kingdom of Israel. Jesus' role as a humble, suffering servant did not align with these expectations.

Focus on Legalism: Many Jewish leaders were preoccupied with strict adherence to the Law and traditions, rather than the deeper spiritual truths of justice, mercy, and faith that Jesus emphasized.

Misinterpretation of Prophecies: They misunderstood or overlooked prophecies that spoke of the Messiah’s suffering and spiritual mission, focusing instead on the triumphant aspects.

Exclusive View of Salvation: They believed God's covenant and salvation were exclusively for Israel and did not anticipate the inclusion of Gentiles in God’s redemptive plan.

Religious Authority and Power: The religious leaders saw Jesus as a threat to their authority and power, leading to their rejection of Him.

These factors combined to create a significant barrier to recognizing Jesus as the true Messiah and the fulfillment of their Scriptures.

You can add some more, should you wish brother.

 

[Ritajanice]

How many posts do you have to make to answer a post?

By the way you said on another thread you “ have the Spirit “ that is error...God doesn’t say “ you have the Spirit “...that is why it was so confusing to read.

God says you must be “ Born Of The Spirit “ Born Again/ Born of imperishable seed...see how easy that is to understand as a spirit child?

Stop trying to confuse me with your non spiritual talk...I will pick you up on it every time...God will not have anyone bear false witness on how we are Born Again...

Also, good to see you are using that "full of religious dogma" Bible.

How many times have I told you that I didn’t call the Bible , “ dogma”?

I called your teaching of your self righteous posts to me, “ dogma”...please don’t teach your religious studies of scripture to me...I am Born Of The Spirit and am led through scripture by Gods witness His Living Holy Spirit...I don’t lead myself through the story of scripture like you do.

Seems to me you and a few others are “ working” for your salvation....with all the commentaries and reams of scripture, you don’t need any of that to know one is Born Again, the Bible doesn’t keep your spirit Alive I do hope you know that, the Bible when led by the Spirit “ feeds “ our spirit as the Spirit brings scripture to our understanding.....our spirit is fed....not our intellect.....you have even said on a thread you try and put me on ignore because my posts make no sense to you....?...so why do you even bother responding to my posts...?
Short commentary.

God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality). The word “spiritual” is used all the time in the Bible. From John 4, we can see that God is a spiritual being, and learning to be “spiritual” is an important part of our relationship with him.



As I’ve tried to explain to you many times I am Spirit led and a spirit child?

That is how you feed the spirit.

Reading scripture...if you are not a spirit child does not feed your spirit.

Quoting reams and reams of scripture does not make anyone Born Again.

A child can quote scripture.

I showed you exactly what the Bible says. You find that boring?

I find your religious talk boring....you showed me what your believe the Bible to be saying.

You can’t show me anything only the Spirit can do that, he shows me nothing through you...I pick religious talk up from you in my spirit...manmade religion......and the food I need feeding comes from Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit, he feeds my spirit when “ HE” leads me through God’s written word.

And once again the Bible isn’t God...it’s his written word and not everything in the Bible is addressed to his spirit child.

Wow. When I told you you need to read your Bible, you told me you didn't need religious dogma.
Rev 1:3

I told you that I don’t need to read your religious talk..who try to shame people into reading their bible...your posts are full of condemnation...I’ve already posted scripture rebuking your natural human thinking nonsense and will continue to do so.

Do you actually know what it means to walk after the Spirit?

If you do know, then explain what it means and who brings it to your understanding?

Romans 8:1​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

View attachment 46728
You believe what you want. I don't care. It's your soul. But just remember Satan talks to people too. And don't tell me he doesn't talk to you. He talked to Jesus as well. There is only one way you can tell it is not him. Jesus was tempted, and you who are much, much less than Him are also tempted whether you believe it or not How did Jesus fight the devil?

Fight the devil you say.....now how would you know that the devil is real?

How would you know that Jesus was tempted by the devil?

How would you know how to rebuke the devil?

Your understanding of being Born Again is not biblical.....there’s the rub...

Where do you need to know that Jesus hung on a cross?..I’ve asked you countless times this question, I’ve also asked you are you a spirit child of God?

If you aren’t....then that is why you have no understanding of such matters , because they can only be discerned by the spirit.....


Do you actually understand the renewing of our minds , do you think you can do that just by reading your Bible?
It’s not what “ I” believe, and NO it’s not my soul that is saved from eternal damnation it’s my spirit, we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God.

Plus tell me, how do you know that Jesus hung on a cross, just by reading your Bible?

Where do you need to know Jesus?...before you become His spirit child?

Your posts are you posts on what “ you” believe the word of God to be saying.....I disagree with your posts , “ I” believe the word of God to be saying what His Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit witnesses to my heart/ spirit he brings the written word to Gods truth “ in my spirit “....not in my intellect.

By the way...the only place satan can attack a Born Again is their mind not their spirit....that’s why we need the renewing of our minds to think as Christ....you must be Born Again to understand the renewing of our minds, as it’s the Spirit who brings the renewing of our minds to our understanding in our spirit.

We are Spirit led.... not led by manmade religious talk, that will always be rebuked in the Name Of Jesus.

IT IS WRITTEN

ON OUR HEARTS!

In Jeremiah, God had promised to write his law-a new covenant-on the hearts of the people. Here Paul says that the Corinthians are a letter of Christ, “written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts” (2 Corinthians 3:3).



IN OUR SPIRIT
For it to be written, you must be a spirit child of God and know him in your spirit, not your own intellect and study of the Bible....thinking it’s saying what what you believe it to be saying.

You worship the Bible , whereas you should be worshiping God in your spirit and being led through scripture by His Spirit.

I will rebuke your claim that I must read my Bible in my own strength as I believe you do.


Commentary.
A religious spirit is a type of demonic spirit that influences a person, or group of people, to replace a genuine relationship with God with works and traditions. When people operate out of a religious spirit they attempt to earn salvation. This evil spirit has established nonbiblical beliefs and customs for generations. Yet, as Believers, we shouldn’t turn a blind eye to the work of the religious spirit. It is lurking around attempting to cause judgment and destruction among Believers and in the Body of Church.

We know the enemy is an angel of light, attempting to counterfeit any of God’s good and perfect gifts, in efforts to cause chaos, confusion, shame, and guilt. He does this with the work of the religious spirit.

“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.”—2 Corinthians 11:13-14

This religious spirit is out to imitate the work of the Holy Spirit. We must be clear that no matter how hard Satan tries to forge the work of the Holy Spirit, he cannot. But he can cause great confusion and deception. The good news is, when you seek to be led by the Holy Spirit, you will be able to identify and deal with this bitter and hypocritical spirit.

There are a number of trademarks of the religious spirit. But the Holy Spirit has equipped us with God’s full armor. You can identify this spirit and overcome it!

 

[ScottA]

Expectations of a Political Messiah: They expected a powerful political and military leader who would liberate them from Roman rule and restore the kingdom of Israel. Jesus' role as a humble, suffering servant did not align with these expectations.

Focus on Legalism: Many Jewish leaders were preoccupied with strict adherence to the Law and traditions, rather than the deeper spiritual truths of justice, mercy, and faith that Jesus emphasized.

Misinterpretation of Prophecies: They misunderstood or overlooked prophecies that spoke of the Messiah’s suffering and spiritual mission, focusing instead on the triumphant aspects.

Exclusive View of Salvation: They believed God's covenant and salvation were exclusively for Israel and did not anticipate the inclusion of Gentiles in God’s redemptive plan.

Religious Authority and Power: The religious leaders saw Jesus as a threat to their authority and power, leading to their rejection of Him.

These factors combined to create a significant barrier to recognizing Jesus as the true Messiah and the fulfillment of their Scriptures.

You can add some more, should you wish brother.

The list is good. We could go down that list and mark them: Wrong--leader, wrong--focus, wrong--on prophecies, etc. That was Israel.

Now, what does the church expect regarding Jesus' second coming? (again, just briefly)

 

[Lizbeth]

And no one questioned him about his “vision”? No one thought that perhaps the old “angel of light” trick might have had the devil doing his thing here…? We know what deception is…right? How would you know the source of this ‘visitation’? How would he even know? You have to have a sound knowledge of Scripture to stand against “the crafty acts of the devil”.

How would I evaluate such a claim? I would first of all ask what Bible truths he was told to be teaching when he set up these churches, and the Scriptural basis for them. This would tell me straight away if he was from God….but I do not believe that God operates that way anymore. The gifts were withdrawn for a very good reason….the future was to see satan cast down to the earth and on a mission to mislead all that he could.
People would have to try and separate the real miracles from the fake ones. By withdrawing the real ones, only the fake ones remain for the uneducated and misinformed.

If he taught what the rest of Christendom teaches, I would strongly suspect that he had been sent by the wrong “god”, since I do not see the endlessly divided churches of Christendom teaching or practicing what Christ taught at all.
Jesus said that satan was going to sow seeds of counterfeit Christianity in the world, and what better way than to provide a man like this, with a testimony like his, involving a supernatural experience that he would never have been able to prove. People believe because they want to, but if this man was visited by the devil and was pretending to be Christ, consider the consequences….

The devil knows how to deceive and is out to blind “even the elect” if he can…..where does that leave the ordinary folk who might not ever have studied the Bible for themselves and who fall prey to this very thing, because they prefer to be spoon fed in their gullibility, rather than to feed themselves?

Supernatural stuff intrigues them, but we are warned in Scripture to avoid such things.
The Pharisees accused Jesus of using power from the devil…..that also works for him in reverse.

Oh ye of little faith.

"The Pharisees accused Jesus of using power from the devil"......Exactly. Still the same accusation today...nothing new under the sun. And we need to know this is a huge error that can potentially place one outside of the faith....God doesn't take the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit lightly. Having a form of godliness but denying the power....from such turn away.

 

[Cassandra]

Oh ye of little faith.

"The Pharisees accused Jesus of using power from the devil"......Exactly. Still the same accusation today...nothing new under the sun. And we need to know this is a huge error that can potentially place one outside of the faith....God doesn't take the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit lightly. Having a form of godliness but denying the power....from such turn away.

So we are not supposed to check what he believed with the Bible, or else be called "of little faith"?
Does this ring a bell?
Matt24:14
We are to be like the Bereans.
Acts17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, xexamining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. God knew the hearts of the Pharisees. It is vastly different than a Christian searching something out.

Just because someone wants to question what is behind something does not mean they are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. We are also told that Jesus will reject some who thought they knew Him
Why?
I am quite surprised at you. Usually I find your posts thoughtful.

 

[Lizbeth]

So we are not supposed to check what he believed with the Bible, or else be called "of little faith"?
Does this ring a bell?
Matt24:14 View attachment 46751
We are to be like the Bereans.
Acts17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, xexamining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. God knew the hearts of the Pharisees. It is vastly different than a Christian searching something out.

Just because someone wants to question what is behind something does not mean they are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. We are also told that Jesus will reject some who thought they knew Him View attachment 46752
Why?
I am quite surprised at you. Usually I find your posts thoughtful.

Never said that sister....yes we sure are to check the bible and that is why I pointed out some bible there. Yes false prophets doing miracles.....lots of them nowadays....mass media has allowed them to proliferate more - and how they lead people astray is by handling the things of God with hands of flesh (Uzziah in 2Sam 6:6) .....for gain and fame, and they teach the people to chase after "the supernatural" instead of exhorting them to seek God and His righteousness, to live right and obey Jesus' commands.

The false discredits what is true, so we must not fall for that ruse and let the false put us off what is true. And if we have our eyes on miracles and idolize the things of God, instead of keeping our eyes and hearts on God, His miracles can become a snare. Everything tests us. Jesus told His disciples basically to not make a big deal that the miracles happen, but to "rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven". That should put us all in our place not to exalt and glory in ourselves or in anyone else, like those false.....we are all sinners saved by grace by the skin of our teeth.

(And I forgot to say....I do agree with testing that one from Tibet they thought was an apostle. Yes, good point for sure. Test all things. I gathered that they had, going by what they said about him only being interested in Jesus and the things He said and did, not in wrangling over weighty doctrinal issues - "knowing nothing but Christ and Him crucified" as I took that.... but I guess we don't have enough to go on to know for sure.)