22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

Ezekiel 41-48

Ezekiel Below Is (The Eternal Kingdom) Same River And Tree Of life, Same Fruit On The Tree, Same Leaves Of The Tree For Healing/Medicine

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Ezekiel 47:12KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Revelation 22:1-2KJV
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[Truth7t7]

(Zech 14:4)

Zechariah 14 Is The Eternal Kingdom​

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[WPM]

My desire is to be resurrected and rule the nations with Jesus. I guess I wouldn't call myself a premil, because of some of the things you say against them. They don't apply to me.

I hate to burst your bubble, Jesus destroys all the wicked when He comes.

 

[Truth7t7]

My Bible says a shepherd's rule. The shepherd's rod of the Lord the righteous are comforted by. You replace rule with destroy. If you have a Bible with that translation from another source, then you can quote that verse and translation. Agreeing or not agreeing with opinions are neither here nor there for me.

Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

 

[Truth7t7]

My Bible says a shepherd's rule. The shepherd's rod of the Lord the righteous are comforted by. You replace rule with destroy. If you have a Bible with that translation from another source, then you can quote that verse and translation. Agreeing or not agreeing with opinions are neither here nor there for me.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

This looks like a whole lot of overkill. If a teaching is false, the Bible will just say so from a verse or two. The same goes for a verse or two verifying a true teaching. The KISS rule definitely applies to the Bible.

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!) ← and Keep It Simply Simple, eh?

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

 

[Truther]

Yes, I agree that is from bible verses saying so. But to be fair we must recognize that no Bible verse specifically says the Lord's organization of resurrected believers will be on the earth ruling the nations of earth. That is why we have to look at other bible verses to make the best case one way or the other. We need something showing the thrones they judge from are on the earth itself. How do we know they're not remaining in the air all that time? We know the Lord Himself will split the mountain and be in Zion.

Rev 20 shows earth only here....


20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them....

....Out of heaven to earth.

There is no way any of this is going on in heaven, just earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

Rev 20 shows earth only here....


20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them....

....Out of heaven to earth.

There is no way any of this is going on in heaven, just earth.

Your claim is "false" Revelation 20:1-8 is in the spiritual realm, Revelation 20:9 is upon this earth

The dead righteous live and reign with Jesus presently in the spiritual realm

 

[Timtofly]

Translation occurs when some one is raised from the dead. Hello! You cannot handle the Word. Your mentor Scofield was the exact same.

Translation from what? At the second birth which could happen at any age, what translation are you talking about? John the Baptist was full of the Holy Spirit in the womb.

This second birth as the first resurrection is as metaphorical or more so than your metaphorical millennium. Why would there be a drastic change if your millennium has no change from an everyday sin infested world? You are still a sinner, but redeemed. You still can disobey God, but not killed, perhaps not even punished. I guess you think that God can kick you out at any time as it was probably His choice to birth you, no?

I have been accused of not even knowing what sin is and you all think sin currently does not even exist in this metaphorical world of yours. So is this a metaphorical Translation as well?

Premil are wrong that sin will exist in the coming millennium, and you are wrong for saying it does not, yet does when you mock God's Word. All in the Millennium are Translated from death into life, and that is why sin and mortals do not exist in the Millennium. So your metaphorical Translation does not cut it. When Enoch was translated he could no longer be found on the earth. So when those millennium firstfruits are translated out of sin and death, sin and natural death, will no longer be found on the earth. God removes the curse and punishment placed on Adam. That is the promise of Daniel 9:24. But you can enjoy your metaphorical world and belief system. God will not kill you, nor kick you out of the family. Now punishment? You may have to sit in the corner for a literal thousand years.

BTW, one can still disobey, but not naturally. Without the natural inclination afforded by living constantly in a state of death and sin, why would one want to disobey? Now that is literal Translation out of sin and death into life. Not this metaphorical Translation, that has no effect until physical death.

A spiritual resurrection is metaphor. A physical resurrection is not a metaphor. The second birth is not a metaphor. It is reality of a spiritual nature. The Holy Spirit is not a metaphor. The Holy Spirit is real. Amil's millennium is a metaphor. The Day of the Lord is the metaphorical term of a literal 1,000 years. The thousand years is not a metaphor. The thousand years is the literal explanation of the phrase, Day of the Lord.

Why do you use a vague metaphor from the OT to interpret a clear literal passage in the NT? All we get are excuses, excuses, excuses, Revelation is too symbolic. You seem to have no problem understanding the symbolism, just an issue with turning the literal into some vague OT interpretation. The Lamb's book of life is literal, physical, spiritual, and real even if it has a long name. So was the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, even though it had a long name. Names literally have meaning and purpose.

Not Amil, it just means not pre-mill. The name premill has meaning and purpose.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you even thinking about this? Jesus is a firstfruit in the sense of being the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. The firstfruits in James 1 were the Jewish believers that James was writing to. They were the firstfruits in the sense of being the first Christians.

Can any Amil explain to me why Jesus needed to be made alive out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and sinful condition?

The point that Paul made was that one man, Adam made all men dead. Then one man, Jesus made all men alive. Why do you all keep saying Jesus was the only one made alive at the Cross, when he was not the intended target of being made alive, but the one doing the making alive?

Jesus was not even a sinner nor part of those made dead by Adam.

The only dead at the Cross made alive as the firstfruits would be all the OT redeemed, the church of faith, even under the old covenant.

They were the first ones in the order, of being made alive, that God planned from the foundation of the world. Every one since then are those firstfruits.

Because the next order is: "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

All the dead have been made alive who physically died at the point of the Second Coming. The only ones still in death, are those raptured up off of the earth. That is the instant they are made alive. Then comes the end, after the kingdom is handed back to God, and creation is made alive into God from where it came. The beginning and the end. All are in Christ and the credit goes to Him. He did physically die, and physically arise from death. However the point was that Jesus was not the recipient, thus not part of the order, when it states: each in their own order. Jesus as God is still the all in all.

Those made alive are those born into death. Jesus even made us alive at the Cross, even though we were not even born. But the point of being made fully alive, not just metaphorically alive, is still future to us. And that is only because we have not physically died, which also puts an end to Adam's dead state. Once the soul leaves this body of death, that is it for the redeemed. They have then passed from death into life, in their order.

 

[WPM]

Premil are wrong that sin will exist in the coming millennium, and you are wrong for saying it does not, yet does when you mock God's Word.

LOL. Your millennium is eventually overrun by billions of wicked as the sand of the sea. The Amil understanding is biblical.

1. So, according to you, turning your back on Jesus is not sin?
2. Being deceived by the devil and becoming a follower of him is not sin?
3. Mobilizing in Satan's army to destroy "the camp of the saints" is not sin?

 

[Truther]

Your claim is "false" Revelation 20:1-8 is in the spiritual realm, Revelation 20:9 is upon this earth

The dead righteous live and reign with Jesus presently in the spiritual realm

Who reigns over who in heaven?

 

[Timtofly]

Like the rest of Scripture, "a thousand" is symbolically used to represent a long period of time or a large amount. Simple to the unindoctrinated.

So after the Second Coming, Jesus could rule on this current earth for thousands of years? You say the Day of the Lord that will soon come is not a fixed amount of time, but could be 2 or 3 or even dozens of millennia?

Saying the Day of the Lord is a thousand years is not being hyperliteral.

Could we say you are hyperexplicit because you only use Scripture that contains the exact word to form your own private interpretations? You cherry pick only those verses containing the word you want to hyperexplain?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've already told you how I believe that rule will be, and the verses for why I believe it. If you want to know why also, then you can look them up for yourself. They are self-explanatory. I only say something for certain based upon what verses say. I also explained why I believe the nations will be glad as the Bible says. It would certainly make me glad to never have to deal with corrupt rulers on earth nor have to fight any wars.

Seems like you have no interest in backing up your beliefs in any detail for some reason.

Can you at least answer this question: what is your understanding of this passage, which is the one that the verses from Revelation are based on:

Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father. 8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ezekiel 41-48. (Joel 3:16) (Zechariah 6:13-15) (Zech 14:4)

How exactly do those passages teach that Jesus will rule on the earth after He returns? Ezekiel 41-48 and Zechariah 14 talk about animal sacrifices. Do you believe animal sacrifices will be reinstated? If so, how can that be in light of Jesus making His "once for all" sacrifice which established the new covenant and put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You provide a good verse for your argument about how they are ruled from Psalms 2. It's not a verse saying He won't rule them. If we take Psalms 2 and revelation 19 together, then we have a rule that breaks the wicked, which are subject of Psalms 2, and shepherds others of the nations spoken of in Rev 19.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. When you read the following, is it not a clear picture of Him destroying His enemies rather than shepherding them?

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

This talks about Him ruling His enemies with an iron scepter (iron rod) in the context of destroying them. That is clear when you see the description of Him striking them down and treading them in "the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty". That fits with the description of Him breaking/destroying them in Psalm 2:7-9.

The prophecy is the Lord comes to judge the earth to make difference between the guilty and the innocent. The innocent must be the nations rejoicing at His government on earth. The guilty never appreciate just judgment and rule.

Who exactly will these people be that you think He will rule over on the earth? How can any mortals survive His return in light of what Peter wrote here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

 

[Timtofly]

Hey, stop telling us the things you have been wrongly taught, we know them, many of us were once deceived by this teaching, answer the questions relating to what you claimed. You know you cannot, because it is extra-biblical. It must be taught to you. It is not in God's Book.

Stop teaching Amil.

Amil is not biblical, but has to be taught. There is not one verse in Scripture that even implies Amil eschatology.

You are just being hypercritical, and hypocritical.

 

[Timtofly]

Of these 7 kingdoms, 5 are prior to John’s prophecy, 1 present to him and 1 is yet future. Moreover, the 7th kingdom is predicted to manifest for “a short space.” Interestingly, there is an 8th kingdom. This is the beast himself, obviously rising up in his own right from the restraint placed upon him

The 4th kingdom was still in place in the first century. Rome is the 4th kingdom. The 5th kingdom is the ten toes.

If you say that 5 kingdoms are past, that would be the time since the Reformation until the Second Coming. This period we are in, today, is the 6th kingdom.

That would destroy your idealistic view that Satan is bound in the 4th kingdom. Satan is of all earthly kingdoms, and always influential in them, never bound once in history.


"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Satan, the beast is of the 7, not including the 7th. The seven are the first 6 and the 8th. The 8th kingdom makes "of the seven".

We are in the 6th kingdom now. The one where the stone without hands crushed the image of earthly kingdoms. Jesus as Prince is the 7th kingdom after the Second Coming. The 8th kingdom is Satan's 42 months where he sits on the throne of Jesus in Jerusalem.

Post tribulationist incorrectly give the 7th kingdom to a false messiah. They are the ones claiming here is Christ and there is Christ, instead of acknowledging the True Prince, Jesus Christ.

Satan is the beast that has been around since tempting Eve in the Garden. Satan has been involved in all earthly kingdoms working and pulling the strings, of whoever follows him. Satan has not been simply incarcerated ever. Only the kingdoms he thinks he has been in charge of have been invaded by the Gospel. When Satan is bound, he will not have any influence period. Unlike amil's pseudo incarceration.

So saying 5 kingdoms have fallen would not place the writing in the first century. Because the 4th kingdom Rome had not past yet. Revelation 4 and after is clearly written in the context of today (the future of the first century). This would be after the 5th kingdom, the ten toes, was replaced by the 6th kingdom.

What is presented in Revelation 13:1-4 as a beast is human government, not an individual beast. Satan is the individual beast. There is a third beast referenced along with Satan and the false prophet. So the term beast is not just one entity throughout the book, but different depending on context.

The beast in Revelation 13:1 is not necessarily the same beast in Revelation 17:3. The one in Revelation 17 is describing that 8th kingdom, of which Satan has 100% control over. The contrast in Revelation 17:9 with Revelation 17:10 is that verse 9 is describing the then current governmental situation, with the historical past of all earthly kingdoms in verse 10. If not, then there is nothing in Revelation looking back on history, but all beast only describe a post Second Coming scenario, and only if Satan is even given 42 months to set up an earthly Babylonian empire after the decimation of the Second Coming.

 

[WPM]

So after the Second Coming, Jesus could rule on this current earth for thousands of years? You say the Day of the Lord that will soon come is not a fixed amount of time, but could be 2 or 3 or even dozens of millennia?

Saying the Day of the Lord is a thousand years is not being hyperliteral.

Could we say you are hyperexplicit because you only use Scripture that contains the exact word to form your own private interpretations? You cherry pick only those verses containing the word you want to hyperexplain?

There's nowhere in Scripture that teaches the day of the Lord is a thousand years. That is your own invention.

 

[WPM]

Stop teaching Amil.

Amil is not biblical, but has to be taught. There is not one verse in Scripture that even implies Amil eschatology.

You are just being hypercritical, and hypocritical.

Yah-dee dah, de-dah. You are obviously running out of arguments. Think up of your own phrases.