22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Philip James]

So Jesus has returned to earth and destroyed the wicked and ruled with His saints already for 1000 years. Since that day will not come Paul told us until the man of sin first comes, then you also think the tribulation is over. So the waters all turned to blood and etc 1000 years ago?

Sorry, not even close.

Hello dad,

Is that what I said? I dont think so..

Christ reigned through His Church for 1000 years and then this..

Why do the nations protest and the peoples grumble in vain?

Kings on earth rise up and princes plot together against the LORD and his anointed:

"Let us break their shackles and cast off their chains!"

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

When did it end, and what happened?

Hello WPM,

For 1000 years kings and princes submtted themselves and their people's to the King of Kings..

And they were blessed beyond measure and carried the Gospel to the ends of the Earth.. And this happened:

Why do the nations protest and the peoples grumble in vain?

Kings on earth rise up and princes plot together against the LORD and his anointed:

"Let us break their shackles and cast off their chains!"

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

 

[dad]

Christ reigned through His Church for 1000 years and then this..

He does not reign till He returns. You have some wires crossed

 

[Philip James]

He does not reign till He

Christ reigns NOW, whether people acknowledge Him or not..

Satan has been released and the final unleashing of evil is upon us..

How can anyone enter a strong man's house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

Pax et Bonum

 

[dad]

Christ reigns NOW, whether people acknowledge Him or not..

No He does not whether you realize it or not. Nor has He been reigning for the last 1000 years with His saints. Nor has the great tribulation that must precede that rule happened yet. Etc.

Satan has been released and the final unleashing of evil is upon us..

No we are not at the end of the millennium. I doubt Satan and his angels are cast to earth till we are caught up to heaven.

 

[Philip James]

No He does not whether you realize it or not.

Wow, just wow..

Pax et Bonum

 

[Truth7t7]

More KJV gross errors that give the wrong impression.
Nahum 1:5 .....the earth is in tumult at His Presence, the world and all who live in it. REBible
This prophecy and all the others about the Day the Lord will punish His enemies by fire, is not the end of the world.

Of course Nahum 1:5 below is (The End), minus your fictional Millennial Kingdom on Earth that won't take place

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

"The World, And All That Dwell Therin"

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Prophets speak about survivors, especially Isaiah.

Isaiah doesn't speak of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you claim, let alone survivors of the Day Of The Lord's Fire in Final Judgement (The End)

Feel free to post your claims of survivors, and what you believe is scriptural support, waiting?

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[dad]

Isaiah doesn't speak of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you claim, let alone survivors of the Day Of The Lord's Fire in Final Judgement (The End)

Feel free to post your claims of survivors, and what you believe is scriptural support, waiting?

Jesus Is The Lord

No survivors?

Rev 7:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Truth7t7]

When did it end, and what happened?

The Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem, and the end of the world took place in 66-70AD, this was the "Consummation" the "Ultimate End" right?

 

[dad]

Wow, just wow..

When Jesus returns the kingdoms of this world will become His kingdoms. Meanwhile, the nations are against Jesus. Neither are believers ruling with Him here now.

 

[Truth7t7]

No survivors?

Rev 7:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Thats correct (No Mortal Survivors On Earth) after the Lord returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

The scripture you present are (Souls) seen in the Lords spiritual eternal realm, they aren't on this earth in physical bodies as you suggest

 

[WPM]

Read the rest of it. Jesus was applying his revelation as Messsiah and Judge in the more immediately context, if not also in the eschatological context. What he was saying is that he had come not just to bring salvation, but also to bring judgment, though that judgment was tempered in some respects. Israel, who had been given the knowledge of God, would suffer devastating destruction, whereas pagan nations, like Rome, would be given opportunity to enter into Israel's covenant relationship with God.

Luke 17.28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.

Jesus was saying that his 1st Coming was a revelation that in a day would bring about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, via the Roman Army. It would also come at the end of the age, to judge the world, but more immediately it would bring devastation to Israel, in view of Dan 9, where it was written that "the people of the ruler to come would destroy the city and the sanctuary."

This was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, Israel's form of worship. Their covenant was broken, and God would show that it was broken by completely destroying the temple, the symbol of that covenant.

But this was not an annihilation of the people, a genocide, as it had been in Sodom and Gomorrah. No, Jesus was referring to the total destruction of Jewish independence and religion in Jerusalem. Consequently, Jesus' appearance at the end of the age would bring great judgment, as well. But it would not annihilate the world. If God did not annihilate Jerusalem in 70 AD, then neither will He annihilate the world when Jesus comes again.

In case you don't understand, the passage above speaks of a time that is limited to Jesus' time in history, when people came down from their roofs in Jerusalem. The Romans took some away into exile, and left others, to work the fields for them. This was hardly an annihilation, even though Jesus compared the judgment to Sodom, which was equally devastating.

Oh! So, you've now become a Full Preterist to somehow support the Premil position on that passage. That is why Amils do not take Premil serious. It has no solid, trustworthy or consistent hermeneutics. Everything is fluid. Whatever needs to be forced upon the sacred text is done so in order to justify Premil - and that is a lot.

 

[Truth7t7]

Whatever needs to be forced upon the sacred text is done so in order to justify Premil - and that is a lot.

In Love, The reformed preterist eschatology has 66-70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 (Daniel's AOD) and Matthew 24:21 (The Great Tribulation)

Talking about forcing the text, to justify the preterist interpretation of these events would be a prime example

Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation are "Future" events unfulfilled, as has been shown several times in this thread

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and (Final Judgement), as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Philip James]

When Jesus returns the kingdoms of this world will become His kingdoms. Meanwhile, the nations are against Jesus. Neither are believers ruling with Him here now.

Ah! But Christendom was not against Jesus, but submitted to Him!

The new king of Canada has said he sees the title Defender of the Faith more along the lines of defender of faith..

The last proffesed 'Defender of the Faith' has passed.. Where now are kings and nations submitted to Christ the King?

Pax et Bonum

 

[WPM]

Hello WPM,

For 1000 years kings and princes submtted themselves and their people's to the King of Kings..

And they were blessed beyond measure and carried the Gospel to the ends of the Earth.. And this happened:

Why do the nations protest and the peoples grumble in vain?

Kings on earth rise up and princes plot together against the LORD and his anointed:

"Let us break their shackles and cast off their chains!"

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

You did not answer my question.

 

[WPM]

In Love, The reformed preterist eschatology has 66-70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 (Daniel's AOD) and Matthew 24:21 (The Great Tribulation)

Talking about forcing the text, to justify the preterist interpretation of these events would be a prime example

Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation are "Future" events unfulfilled, as has been shown several times in this thread

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and (Final Judgement), as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I already refuted your teaching but your ducked around it. You have to! You are fighting with the Scriptures.

 

[WPM]

In Love, The reformed preterist eschatology has 66-70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 (Daniel's AOD) and Matthew 24:21 (The Great Tribulation)

Talking about forcing the text, to justify the preterist interpretation of these events would be a prime example

I have to disagree. The context of Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:14-20 and Luke 21:20-24 is clearly the destruction of Jerusalem.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The religious Jews of Jerusalem were about to witness the destruction of their temple. Moreover, that ruination would remain in place from its demolition right up until the second coming of the Lord. The desolation of the temple significantly occurred on the wing of 40 years of idolatrous temple sacrifices (exactly a generation)? The statement “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” was plainly referring to, and correlating with, the warning He had just made to the religious Jews about the impending destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It was also a direct reference to Daniel 9.

Matthew 24:1-2 records, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Christ was specifically speaking here of “the buildings of the temple” not the city. You cannot anywhere find that Israel is described as this. This is literal precise detail!

Mark 13:1-2 records, “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

In this parallel account, Mark corroborates the thought of Matthew.

Luke 21:5-6 records, “And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words.

Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Mark 13:4 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled (finished or ended)?”

Luke 21:7 records:

1. “When shall these things be?”
2. “What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.

 

[Philip James]

You did not answer my question.

I'm sorry, what question was that?

Pax et Bonum

 

[WPM]

In Love, The reformed preterist eschatology has 66-70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 (Daniel's AOD) and Matthew 24:21 (The Great Tribulation)

Talking about forcing the text, to justify the preterist interpretation of these events would be a prime example

Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation are "Future" events unfulfilled, as has been shown several times in this thread

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and (Final Judgement), as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.

Whatever people are in view in whatever location (the Bible says Jerusalem and Judea not Johannesburg or Jaffa), they are limited if fleeing “on the sabbath day” (Saturday). This certainly isn't a restriction to American Christians, maybe Israeli ones. Now, why would such a matter be a limitation to one fleeing the great tribulation? Simple. Because of the strict Pharisaic Law in Israel at that time that restricted the actual distance a Jew could walk on the Sabbath day (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), as it was a religious day of rest. Jews were only allowed to only walk three quarters of a mile on the Sabbath before they would break the day of rest. At the time of Jesus the Jewish authorities closed the gates of the city on the Sabbath; therefore flight from the city on that day would have been extremely difficult. How can the Futurists serious relate such a restriction (1) to the Church and (2) the period preceding "the end of the age"? This last assertion further supports the view that the Jewish capital is the setting and the Jews living in that city (prior to AD 70) are the subjects receiving this warning.