22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

You don't believe what is written?

I believe it fully. I recognize the symbolic recaps in Revelation that fit in with the rest of Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Zechariah 14:16-21 refutes you.
Psalms 2:9 is how the Lord will punish those who disobey Him.

2 Peter 1:7 is a warning about the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the literal day in which the Lord will destroy His enemies and change the world. The Sixth Seal event, that will set the scene for all the Prophesied things to happen before Jesus Returns.

Your belief of the world being totally destroyed when Jesus Returns, is wrong and not what scripture tells us.

Wrong! This couldn't be clearer to those who take Scripture as it reads. You have to spiritualize away so much Scripture to let your beliefs fit.

 

[The Light]

I believe it fully. I recognize the symbolic recaps in Revelation that fit in with the rest of Scripture.

Symbolic Recaps? In your opinion where do these verses fit with the rest of Scripture?

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[WPM]

Symbolic Recaps? In your opinion where do these verses fit with the rest of Scripture?

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

These verses in Revelation 14 (and this teaching) belong to the 4th of 7 recaps in Revelation, and culminate with a record of the climactic return of Jesus.

Revelation 14:14-20 states, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 1) came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel (angel 2) came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 3) came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel (angel 3) thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

This narrative reveals a vivid account of the harvest that accompanies the second coming at the end of this age. We see “the Son of man” appearing upon “a white cloud” with “a golden crown” upon His head and “a sharp sickle” in His hand to reap that final crop “for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” As is seen in other Scripture, it is at the second coming that the wicked are finally cast “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” The wicked will not survive this awful concluding day of destruction. This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” of which the figurative sickle “thrust in” to in order to perfect the harvest.

 

[Philip James]

Then who rebels at the end of the 1000 years?

The 1000 years are over, and most of the world has now slipped back into rebellion.. But one thing remains.. For the bride to walk on the footsteps of the passion of her Master..

Pax et Bonum

 

[dad]

The 1000 years are over, and most of the world has now slipped back into rebellion.. But one thing remains.. For the bride to walk on the footsteps of the passion of her Master..

Pax et Bonum

So Jesus has returned to earth and destroyed the wicked and ruled with His saints already for 1000 years. Since that day will not come Paul told us until the man of sin first comes, then you also think the tribulation is over. So the waters all turned to blood and etc 1000 years ago?

Sorry, not even close.

 

[Truth7t7]

One breaks pots with a rod of iron. One does not rule nations by killing all the people. The pots represent the sovereign governments, which Jesus will abolish when he returns. Refer to Daniel 7.

No survivors, when Jesus returns its fire time, all will be destroyed after the Church is removed

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[WPM]

The 1000 years are over, and most of the world has now slipped back into rebellion.. But one thing remains.. For the bride to walk on the footsteps of the passion of her Master..

Pax et Bonum

When did it end, and what happened?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No survivors, when Jesus returns its fire time, all will be destroyed after the Church is removed

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Read the rest of it. Jesus was applying his revelation as Messsiah and Judge in the more immediately context, if not also in the eschatological context. What he was saying is that he had come not just to bring salvation, but also to bring judgment, though that judgment was tempered in some respects. Israel, who had been given the knowledge of God, would suffer devastating destruction, whereas pagan nations, like Rome, would be given opportunity to enter into Israel's covenant relationship with God.

Luke 17.28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.

Jesus was saying that his 1st Coming was a revelation that in a day would bring about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, via the Roman Army. It would also come at the end of the age, to judge the world, but more immediately it would bring devastation to Israel, in view of Dan 9, where it was written that "the people of the ruler to come would destroy the city and the sanctuary."

This was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, Israel's form of worship. Their covenant was broken, and God would show that it was broken by completely destroying the temple, the symbol of that covenant.

But this was not an annihilation of the people, a genocide, as it had been in Sodom and Gomorrah. No, Jesus was referring to the total destruction of Jewish independence and religion in Jerusalem. Consequently, Jesus' appearance at the end of the age would bring great judgment, as well. But it would not annihilate the world. If God did not annihilate Jerusalem in 70 AD, then neither will He annihilate the world when Jesus comes again.

In case you don't understand, the passage above speaks of a time that is limited to Jesus' time in history, when people came down from their roofs in Jerusalem. The Romans took some away into exile, and left others, to work the fields for them. This was hardly an annihilation, even though Jesus compared the judgment to Sodom, which was equally devastating.

 

[Truth7t7]

Read the rest of it. Jesus was applying his revelation as Messsiah and Judge in the more immediately context, if not also in the eschatological context. What he was saying is that he had come not just to bring salvation, but also to bring judgment, though that judgment was tempered in some respects. Israel, who had been given the knowledge of God, would suffer devastating destruction, whereas pagan nations, like Rome, would be given opportunity to enter into Israel's covenant relationship with God.

Luke 17.28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.

Jesus was saying that his 1st Coming was a revelation that in a day would bring about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, via the Roman Army. It would also come at the end of the age, to judge the world, but more immediately it would bring devastation to Israel, in view of Dan 9, where it was written that "the people of the ruler to come would destroy the city and the sanctuary."

This was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, Israel's form of worship. Their covenant was broken, and God would show that it was broken by completely destroying the temple, the symbol of that covenant.

But this was not an annihilation of the people, a genocide, as it had been in Sodom and Gomorrah. No, Jesus was referring to the total destruction of Jewish independence and religion in Jerusalem. Consequently, Jesus' appearance at the end of the age would bring great judgment, as well. But it would not annihilate the world. If God did not annihilate Jerusalem in 70 AD, then neither will He annihilate the world when Jesus comes again.

In case you don't understand, the passage above speaks of a time that is limited to Jesus' time in history, when people came down from their roofs in Jerusalem. The Romans took some away into exile, and left others, to work the fields for them. This was hardly an annihilation, even though Jesus compared the judgment to Sodom, which was equally devastating.

Randy you falsely believe and teach the Lord's fire at his return is localized to places on earth, you teach and believe it doesn't affect the entire earth?

What a fairy tale that claim is, as Nahum 1:5 below proves your claims "False", no need to post 15 other scriptures to put the icing on the cake

Randy it's hard to believe you reject the simple scripture before your eyes, your teaching and belief on localized fire is "Demolished"

"The World, And All That Dwell Therin"

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy you falsely believe and teach the Lord's fire at his return is localized, and it doesn't affect the globe, what a fairy tale that claim is, as Nahum 1:5 below proves your claims "False", no need to post 15 other scriptures to put the icing on the cake

I guess you're baking a cake in vain, because that's not what I believe. I don't at all believe in what you describe as a purely "localized event." That's crazy. I've never taught that. I've never said that.

What I've said is that the images of the apocalypse are expressed in hyperbolic ways, to indicate a major change in history. What sounds like a burning of the entire universe and the entire planet actually reflects many localized judgments *throughout the world.*

It is not heaven burning up, but people in cities *throughout the world* who see major bombs exploding, sending fire and smoke up into the air, giving the appearance of heaven burning up or disappearing. Please get the story straight before making a complete mess of what you think I believe. Thanks.

 

[Truth7t7]

I guess you're baking a cake in vain, because that's not what I believe. I don't at all believe in what you describe as a purely "localized event." That's crazy. I've never taught that. I've never said that.

What I've said is that the images of the apocalypse are expressed in hyperbolic ways, to indicate a major change in history. What sounds like a burning of the entire universe and the entire planet actually reflects many localized judgments *throughout the world.*

It is not heaven burning up, but people in cities *throughout the world* who see major bombs exploding, sending fire and smoke up into the air, giving the appearance of heaven burning up or disappearing. Please get the story straight before making a complete mess of what you think I believe. Thanks.

Of course you falsely teach the Lord's fire is Localized and not the entire world as scripture teaches

"Local Events" As Pinocchio's Nose Grows!

Of Course Randy Believes And Teaches That The Entire World "Isn't Burned" As Nahum 1:5 Clearly Teaches

"The World, And All That Dwell Therin"

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Quote: Randy Kluth Post #2451

The atomization of the earth and heaven at the 2nd Coming takes place across the earth in local events. That is, every place across the earth a bomb goes off, the elements dissolve. This is God's universal judgment of Antichrist, along with his followers across the earth.

 

[Keraz]

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

More KJV gross errors that give the wrong impression.
Nahum 1:5 .....the earth is in tumult at His Presence, the world and all who live in it. REBible
This prophecy and all the others about the Day the Lord will punish His enemies by fire, is not the end of the world.

 

[The Light]

These verses in Revelation 14 (and this teaching) belong to the 4th of 7 recaps in Revelation, and culminate with a record of the climactic return of Jesus.

Revelation 14:14-20 states, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 1) came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel (angel 2) came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 3) came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel (angel 3) thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

This narrative reveals a vivid account of the harvest that accompanies the second coming at the end of this age. We see “the Son of man” appearing upon “a white cloud” with “a golden crown” upon His head and “a sharp sickle” in His hand to reap that final crop “for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” As is seen in other Scripture, it is at the second coming that the wicked are finally cast “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” The wicked will not survive this awful concluding day of destruction. This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” of which the figurative sickle “thrust in” to in order to perfect the harvest.

This is really an excellent answer. However, I will point again to a lack of understanding.

This coming of Jesus does not occur at the end of the trumpets. This coming of Jesus occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Most that do not understand seem to think that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets. This cannot be the case.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Who is Peter warning in this chapter?
And, what is he warning them about?

Rather than warning his readers, I think Peter is exhorting his readers toward perseverance. Peter reminds his readers about something he already taught them. He says, "I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder . . ." He expresses confidence in his readers' sincerity of mind (faith) but he also knows that his readers will benefit from a reminder about Jesus' teaching concerning his coming, the day of the Lord, and the eschaton.

Bearing in mind that the prophetic writings contain many books on the subject, and that Jesus spoke at great length about the subject, we would not expect Peter to repeat the entire body of teaching in such a short chapter. Rather, Peter offers a few highlights of the full body of teaching on the subject, expecting his readers to remember the rest, in order to offer a quick but significant word of exhortation so that they might continue in the faith.

Undoubtedly his readers were expecting the eschaton in their own lifetime, but as older believers began to pass away, and his coming seemed to linger, his readers must have been having doubts about the future. His readers will undoubtedly confront scoffers who will test their faith with the argument that God's delay indicates a prophetic mistake concerning the eschaton. He isn't actually coming, is he?

Peter confronts this particular doubt with an analysis of God's purpose for the delay. God delays his judgment, giving time for people to repent and be saved. And possible repentance is a good reason to delay the eschaton. He reminds his readers of the flood event, I believe, in order to emphasize two major ideas: 1) God will interrupt the steady state of all things any time it suits his purpose, and 2) God is not quick to judge. Peter argues that the eschaton will come, but a delay is expected because God is not willing that any perish. During Noah's time, he gave the world 120 years to repent. Genesis 6:3 God is not slow, as we count "slowness"; rather, his habit is to give both advanced warning and plenty of time for repentance.

As Peter says, "by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." God's word concerning the eschaton will not fail. Nevertheless, Peter says, "with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day." Isn't that interesting? Right in the middle of a discussion about the eschaton, Peter proposes a thousand-year day.

On the one hand, Peter asserts that the eschaton will accompany the Day of the Lord, but on the other hand, Peter also advances the idea of a thousand-year day.

Does it seem that unreasonable that if God waited 120 years between the warning of a flood and the realization of the flood, that God's "day" might last a thousand years, giving people even more time to repent?

I don't see why not.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No survivors, when Jesus returns its fire time, all will be destroyed after the Church is removed

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

The Prophets speak about survivors, especially Isaiah.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is really an excellent answer. However, I will point again to a lack of understanding.

This coming of Jesus does not occur at the end of the trumpets. This coming of Jesus occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Most that do not understand seem to think that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets. This cannot be the case.

The wrath is certainly mentioned in the sixth seal, but the coming of the messiah is specifically and explicitly associated with the seventh trumpet. Revelation 11

 

[The Light]

The wrath is certainly mentioned in the sixth seal, but the coming of the messiah is specifically and explicitly associated with the seventh trumpet. Revelation 11

Certainly, the Messiah comes at the end of the trumpets, but He also comes at the 6th seal. Here is the scriptural proof. In Revelation 14 we see that Jesus comes for a harvest. After this harvest those that remain are cast into the wrath of God.


Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

We see the same coming at the 6th seal and those that remain are cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

In summary, the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 when He send His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth, this occurs at the 6th seal, BEFORE WRATH.

This is further supported by the coming of Jesus for a harvest in Revelation 14, BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD.

Therefore, the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 cannot be the coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Certainly, the Messiah comes at the end of the trumpets, but He also comes at the 6th seal. Here is the scriptural proof. In Revelation 14 we see that Jesus comes for a harvest. After this harvest those that remain are cast into the wrath of God.


Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

We see the same coming at the 6th seal and those that remain are cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

In summary, the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 when He send His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth, this occurs at the 6th seal, BEFORE WRATH.

This is further supported by the coming of Jesus for a harvest in Revelation 14, BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD.

Therefore, the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 cannot be the coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets.

In Revelation 14, John depicts Jesus already on earth, located in Zion when both of harvests occur.

 

[The Light]

In Revelation 14, John depicts Jesus already on earth, located in Zion when both of harvests occur.

This is not correct. Jesus comes to earth for the 144,000 and you should be able to see that they return to heaven as they are standing before the throne. Jesus has come for the first fruits of the harvest and they are the wave offering to the Lord.

So yes, Jesus returns to the earth.....
Rev 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Jesus and the 144,000 are then seen in heaven as the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. They are the first fruits of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal... BEFORE the wrath of God, NOT at the end of the wrath of God.


2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.