22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

It is you that takes the Dispensationalist gap-theory position.

Your claim is false, no 2,000 year gap in my eschatology

Scripture clearly teaches of a future human man as being Daniel's (Little Horn) Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast)

Scripture teaches this human man will be revealed in the "Future" causing Daniel's AOD, this starts the 3.5 year Great Tribulation on earth

Scripture teaches in Revelation chapter 11 that two prophets will return the (Two Witnesses) that will have literal physical bodies that die, these witnesses will bring literal plagues upon a literal world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Immediately after this 3.5 year tribulation, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

No. I have never said that - ever. I don't know where you got that.

Please explain when has/will the "Consummation" take place, when, how, where?

Thanks!

 

[Philip James]

Since the greater context here was that you claimed Christ was now ruling the planet and has been for 1000 years

Christ has been reigning since the day He destroyed death.. That not all submit to His rule and that the nations who did, have, for the most part, now rebelled against Him is a matter of history..

And yet still is fulfilled Malachi 1:11 which the enemy seeks to extinguish everywhere he gains power..

Pax et Bonum

 

[dad]

Christ has been reigning since the day He destroyed death..

Nope. That is why we are to pray that is one day be on earth as it is in heaven. It is more like hell now than heaven. You are not even close.

That not all submit to His rule and that the nations who did, have, for the most part, now rebelled against Him is a matter of history..

When He returns all will submit that are still alive! He will break them in pieces like a broken bowl. He will then rule with a rod of iron, an iron rule. Nothing like the debauched demonic lunatics that rule today.

And yet still is fulfilled Malachi 1:11 which the enemy seeks to extinguish everywhere he gains power..

Pax et Bonum

The enemy will not even be here when Jesus rules. Again you are not even remotely close on any of these things. I suggest to spend less time talking and more time listening.

 

[WPM]

He has no recourse, other than endless regurgitated denial and pp (preterist paranoia).

"Evidence" is not in his lexicon.

I agree bro. It is childish.

 

[WPM]

Your claim is false, no 2,000 year gap in my eschatology

Scripture clearly teaches of a future human man as being Daniel's (Little Horn) Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast)

Scripture teaches this human man will be revealed in the "Future" causing Daniel's AOD, this starts the 3.5 year Great Tribulation on earth

Scripture teaches in Revelation chapter 11 that two prophets will return the (Two Witnesses) that will have literal physical bodies that die, these witnesses will bring literal plagues upon a literal world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Immediately after this 3.5 year tribulation, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

The beast/antichrist/man of sin have been about since before John or Paul.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 yrs+.

The Beast

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18-23: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world … They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 John 1:7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That man of sin

2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 declares: “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Second Coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

I put it to you we are looking at a spirit – a spirit that is the direct antithesis of the Holy Spirit.

The thousand years/Satan's little season refers to the here-and-now - the last days period. The persecution and martyrdom have been ongoing since Stephen. Satan, the beast and their kingdom has been resisting the Church throughout the intra-Advent period (Rev 20). Check Church history! We cannot ignore the persecution of the early Church, the genocide of millions of believers in the Middle Ages by the Roman church, and the ongoing persecution of the true Church globally today.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Oh! So, you've now become a Full Preterist to somehow support the Premil position on that passage. That is why Amils do not take Premil serious. It has no solid, trustworthy or consistent hermeneutics. Everything is fluid. Whatever needs to be forced upon the sacred text is done so in order to justify Premil - and that is a lot.

This isn't fluid. This is my own position that I've held for some time now. I don't belong strictly to an eschatological school--I borrow from all schools, because all schools have Christians in them with something to offer. I borrow from Amil when it is warranted, and from Premil when it is warranted.

But I am a Premil, and certainly not a Full Preterist, nor even a Partial Preterist. I just hold some views that align with PPs. I would agree with Marty that the Olivet Discourse focused primarily on the fall of Jerusalem and the temple in Jesus' generation. No surprise--that's exactly what Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse. He started out by declaring that the temple would fall, which happened in his own generation. And this would precipitate an age-long Jewish tribulation, called "great" because it would be the longest lasting punishment in Israel's history. But Jesus would come back to regather the Jews, among those who survive Armageddon.

Well, I *almost* missed your smiling face around here over the last week or so. But I know--you can't help yourself... ;)

 

[Truth7t7]

beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 yrs+.

The Beast

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That spirit of antichrist

This was 2,000 yrs ago!.

Your claim is laughable in light of scriptural truth

Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation are "Future" events unfulfilled, as has been shown several times in this thread

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and (Final Judgement), as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is not correct. Jesus comes to earth for the 144,000 and you should be able to see that they return to heaven as they are standing before the throne. Jesus has come for the first fruits of the harvest and they are the wave offering to the Lord.

So yes, Jesus returns to the earth.....
Rev 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Jesus and the 144,000 are then seen in heaven as the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. They are the first fruits of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal... BEFORE the wrath of God, NOT at the end of the wrath of God.


2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

In my view, the situation is this. Both Jesus and the 144K are standing on Zion, which is a location on earth. The 144K are learning the gospel message and the gospels implications with regard to the Law of Moses, symbolically represented as learning a new song which only they could learn. They are being taught "from heaven". The voice is coming from heaven. How is this possible? There is a cloud over the city of Jerusalem, Isaiah 4:5 which is very reminiscent of the Transfiguration. Matthew 17:5 If Peter, James and John can hear a voice from the cloud, then the 144K can be taught a new song in the midst of the cloud, yes?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Isaiah doesn't speak of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you claim, let alone survivors of the Day Of The Lord's Fire in Final Judgement (The End)

Feel free to post your claims of survivors, and what you believe is scriptural support, waiting?

Jesus Is The Lord

Isaiah 4:1-3

For seven women will take hold of one man in that day, saying, “We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach!”

In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel. It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem.​

In that day:
What day? Isaiah is speaking about a generation in our future when women will outnumber men by 7 to 1. During that generation, judgment will come upon Israel and only those who come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord will be saved. Isaiah calls these folks "survivors" because they survived the locust armies and the fires. Those left in Zion will be called holy, everyone recorded for life in Jerusalem.

It's difficult to do this in two or three sentences, which is why I created a video on the subject.

 

[Philip James]

. Again you are not even remotely close on any of these things. I suggest to spend less time talking and more time listening.

Hello dad,

And I suggest you submit to Christ reigning over your life.. ( a little study of the history of Christendom wouldnt hurt either..)

Pax et Bonum

 

[The Light]

These verses in Revelation 14 (and this teaching) belong to the 4th of 7 recaps in Revelation, and culminate with a record of the climactic return of Jesus.

Revelation 14:14-20 states, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 1) came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel (angel 2) came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 3) came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel (angel 3) thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

This narrative reveals a vivid account of the harvest that accompanies the second coming at the end of this age. We see “the Son of man” appearing upon “a white cloud” with “a golden crown” upon His head and “a sharp sickle” in His hand to reap that final crop “for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” As is seen in other Scripture, it is at the second coming that the wicked are finally cast “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” The wicked will not survive this awful concluding day of destruction. This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” of which the figurative sickle “thrust in” to in order to perfect the harvest.

This is really an excellent answer. However, I will point again to a lack of understanding.

This coming of Jesus does not occur at the end of the trumpets. This coming of Jesus occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Most that do not understand seem to think that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets. This cannot be the case.

 

[WPM]

Your claim is laughable in light of scriptural truth

Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation are "Future" events unfulfilled, as has been shown several times in this thread

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel's (Little Horn)

This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and (Final Judgement), as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

"Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Did you even read what I wrote about the consummation?

I am noticing a pattern with you: you ignore every Scripture that forbids your position and respond with a cut-and-paste that you have convinced yourself of that does not support what you are claiming. It is time to address other posters rebuttals. That is why we engage on forums like this.

 

[WPM]

This is really an excellent answer. However, I will point again to a lack of understanding.

This coming of Jesus does not occur at the end of the trumpets. This coming of Jesus occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Most that do not understand seem to think that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets. This cannot be the case.

Why cannot it be the case? Saying that is not enough. You must prove your case.

 

[The Light]

In my view, the situation is this. Both Jesus and the 144K are standing on Zion, which is a location on earth.

So far, this agrees with scripture. Jesus is on mount Sion with the 144,000.

The 144K are learning the gospel message and the gospels implications with regard to the Law of Moses, symbolically represented as learning a new song which only they could learn.

There is no information that tells us that the 144,000 are learning the Gospel message. In fact we can tell that is not the case because we can see in Revelation 7 that they are sealed. That means that they have already heard the Gospel message and are believers.

They are being taught "from heaven". The voice is coming from heaven. How is this possible? There is a cloud over the city of Jerusalem, Isaiah 4:5 which is very reminiscent of the Transfiguration. Matthew 17:5 If Peter, James and John can hear a voice from the cloud, then the 144K can be taught a new song in the midst of the cloud, yes?

I don't believe this is the case. We have factual information that the 144,000 are in heaven as they are before the throne. We have more factual information that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. We have further factual proof that this is the case because the 144,000 are first fruits. If they are first fruits, that means they have been harvested, which means they are no longer on the earth as they are believers and are not appointed to wrath.


2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If you ever want to truly understand the written Word of God, you must accept what is written. This is a perfect example. It is written that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. It is written that they are the first fruits of a coming harvest. At the end of Revelation 14 we can see that harvest. There is no mystery here as to what is written. The mystery is why believers have trouble accepting what is written. And thank you for your response.

 

[WPM]

Rather than warning his readers, I think Peter is exhorting his readers toward perseverance. Peter reminds his readers about something he already taught them. He says, "I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder . . ." He expresses confidence in his readers' sincerity of mind (faith) but he also knows that his readers will benefit from a reminder about Jesus' teaching concerning his coming, the day of the Lord, and the eschaton.

Bearing in mind that the prophetic writings contain many books on the subject, and that Jesus spoke at great length about the subject, we would not expect Peter to repeat the entire body of teaching in such a short chapter. Rather, Peter offers a few highlights of the full body of teaching on the subject, expecting his readers to remember the rest, in order to offer a quick but significant word of exhortation so that they might continue in the faith.

Undoubtedly his readers were expecting the eschaton in their own lifetime, but as older believers began to pass away, and his coming seemed to linger, his readers must have been having doubts about the future. His readers will undoubtedly confront scoffers who will test their faith with the argument that God's delay indicates a prophetic mistake concerning the eschaton. He isn't actually coming, is he?

Peter confronts this particular doubt with an analysis of God's purpose for the delay. God delays his judgment, giving time for people to repent and be saved. And possible repentance is a good reason to delay the eschaton. He reminds his readers of the flood event, I believe, in order to emphasize two major ideas: 1) God will interrupt the steady state of all things any time it suits his purpose, and 2) God is not quick to judge. Peter argues that the eschaton will come, but a delay is expected because God is not willing that any perish. During Noah's time, he gave the world 120 years to repent. Genesis 6:3 God is not slow, as we count "slowness"; rather, his habit is to give both advanced warning and plenty of time for repentance.

Thanks for your detailed response.

But 2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Peter is directly responding to the wicked in this narrative. That is the context here. He is directly responding to the derision of "the last days scoffers." His whole writing here is a solemn warning to them of the folly of their mocking.

What is the derision of the wicked? This: "Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Peter responds directly: "beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He first addresses the apparent delay by telling them that time is nothing with God - "be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." He then reminds them that "the Lord is not slack concerning his promise." He is indeed faithful. He keeps His Word.

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.” God will assuredly keep His Word

We should remember here that the whole context of this reading zeroes in on the matter of “the promise of his coming.” This promise is what this whole narrative is about. To ignore that would cause us to miss the force and meaning of Peter’s message. In fact there are 3 mentions of this “promise” in 2 Peter 3.

Of course, this is a comfort to the believer. No one would argue with that. Peter assures them, despite this wholesale and climactic destruction at the end, that they will inherit the new heaven and new earth arriving at Christ's return, not some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennium as you allege. This negates your whole paradigm. But that is not the overall thrust here. You are totally missing his warning to the wicked of the awful consequences for foolishly rejecting Christ. That is the main message here. He is warning the scoffers of the folly of their mockings and the consequences of their rebellion.

In the Premil paradigm, the scoffers and scoffing survive the coming of the Lord, largely uncensored. These rebels remain able to continue their irrational sneer “since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” The reason being, many Premil propel the fiery judgment depicted in this reading forward 1,000+ years. But the actual thing Peter is warning them about in this passage is the impending wide-ranging destruction of the old heavens, elements, earth, and works upon the earth and the wholesale replacement of them with a brand new heavens and a new earth. He is warning them that this will catch them unexpectedly. It will involve the complete destruction of the old arrangement, and the complete replacement with a new arrangement.

We see the last of three references to God’s “promise” in verse 13. In it Peter describes the events that accompany Christ’s return as a thief. Whilst this day brings terror to the wicked, he reassures the believer that Christ’s coming is a day that we should anticipate with hope, as “we, according to his promise (“the promise of his coming”), look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” God’s people “according to His promise” are going to be ushered unto the new perfected earth when He appears – a hope that should bring joy and comfort to the heart of every believer.

 

[The Light]

Why cannot it be the case?

The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal cannot be the coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets. There are many reasons that cannot be the case.

Here's one

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The trumpets are the wrath of God. Since believers at not appointed to wrath, they will not be on earth during the wrath of God. Jesus comes at the end of Matthew 24 and sends His angels to gather believers. Those on earth will be cast into the wrath of God. Believers are in heaven and not on earth during Gods wrath.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is further supported by the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. You said that coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 was the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, and you are right. And yet we see the harvest occurs and the wicked are cast into the wrath of God. The vials are just a different view of the trumpets.

Also, the 7 seals are in order and line up perfectly with Matthew 24. The first four seals the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus of Matthew 24 which supported by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Then the 7th seal is the wrath of God. That means Jesus comes before wrath and gathers believers. That means they are not on earth during the trumpets of vials.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So far, this agrees with scripture. Jesus is on mount Sion with the 144,000.


There is no information that tells us that the 144,000 are learning the Gospel message. In fact we can tell that is not the case because we can see in Revelation 7 that they are sealed. That means that they have already heard the Gospel message and are believers.


I don't believe this is the case. We have factual information that the 144,000 are in heaven as they are before the throne. We have more factual information that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. We have further factual proof that this is the case because the 144,000 are first fruits. If they are first fruits, that means they have been harvested, which means they are no longer on the earth as they are believers and are not appointed to wrath.


2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If you ever want to truly understand the written Word of God, you must accept what is written. This is a perfect example. It is written that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. It is written that they are the first fruits of a coming harvest. At the end of Revelation 14 we can see that harvest. There is no mystery here as to what is written. The mystery is why believers have trouble accepting what is written. And thank you for your response.

I agree. It doesn't literally say that they were learning the gospel. It literally says they were learning a new song.
With regard to Revelation 7, I believe the seal represents the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but I don't think the 144K are Jesus believers at that point -- not yet. They don't become Jesus believers until he returns to meet them on Mount Zion.

 

[WPM]

The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal cannot be the coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets. There are many reasons that cannot be the case.

Here's one

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The trumpets are the wrath of God. Since believers at not appointed to wrath, they will not be on earth during the wrath of God. Jesus comes at the end of Matthew 24 and sends His angels to gather believers. Those on earth will be cast into the wrath of God. Believers are in heaven and not on earth during Gods wrath.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is further supported by the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. You said that coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 was the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, and you are right. And yet we see the harvest occurs and the wicked are cast into the wrath of God. The vials are just a different view of the trumpets.

Also, the 7 seals are in order and line up perfectly with Matthew 24. The first four seals the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus of Matthew 24 which supported by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Then the 7th seal is the wrath of God. That means Jesus comes before wrath and gathers believers. That means they are not on earth during the trumpets of vials.

You are adding 2+2 and getting 22. No view says the wrath of God is upon the righteouss apart from Pretribbers who equate their future 7-year-trib with the wrath of God and have countless believers functioning in this period. The wrath of God is upon the wicked now, that does not mean it is upon the righteous. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 shows that we are rescued from the wrath of God at the coming of Christ.

 

[WPM]

Peter says, "with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day." Isn't that interesting? Right in the middle of a discussion about the eschaton, Peter proposes a thousand-year day.

On the one hand, Peter asserts that the eschaton will accompany the Day of the Lord, but on the other hand, Peter also advances the idea of a thousand-year day.

Does it seem that unreasonable that if God waited 120 years between the warning of a flood and the realization of the flood, that God's "day" might last a thousand years, giving people even more time to repent?

I don't see why not.

I have showed you above what the thousand years is used for here. It has nothing to do with some suppose future millennium. I suspect you know that. Anyway, the age that you insert in between "this age" and "the age to come" is longer than 1000 years. So, this blows apart your whole thesis.