Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just another assumption on your part. Unprovable assertion.

Of course we are sharing our opinions here. That goes without saying, doesn't it? What is the point of calling someone's opinion an "unprovable assertion"? At least we are backing up our view with scripture. Jesus specifically told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that very day in paradise, so why would we think He went anywhere else on that day? A few verses later it says He committed His spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46). Where is the Father located? In paradise (the third heaven).

 

[WPM]

Just another assumption on your part. Unprovable assertion.

Not so! Quite the opposite! Read what Jesus actually said in Luke 23:42-46 and what resulted: "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

 

[Scott Downey]

Not so! Quite the opposite! Read what Jesus actually said in Luke 23:42-46 and what resulted: "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

And this only proves Jesus fully trusted his Father. Proves nothing else as to what occured.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is all of that. You deliberately ignore the part of his going to prepare a place for us. And the many mansions. All that shows us this is a heavenly place created specifically and individually for us. But it is not on me to convince you. Tha is God's job

It's not your job to tell me that I'm supposedly ignoring something, either. I'm not ignoring anything. Obviously, I believe that our souls and spirits go to heaven when we die, so it's not as if I'm denying that. But, do you not believe that Jesus will be bringing heaven to us after we've been changed bodily when He comes again bodily in the future? I think He was talking about preparing the place for us where we will spend eternity with immortal bodies which is the new heaven and new earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And this only proves Jesus fully trusted his Father. Proves nothing else as to what occured.

Why do you say it only proves that? Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that day that He died. That proves nothing about where the spirit of Jesus and of the thief on the cross would go that day? I'd say it does.

 

[Scott Downey]

Of course we are sharing our opinions here. That goes without saying, doesn't it? What is the point of calling someone's opinion an "unprovable assertion"? At least we are backing up our view with scripture. Jesus specifically told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that very day in paradise, so why would we think He went anywhere else on that day? A few verses later it says He committed His spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46). Where is the Father located? In paradise (the third heaven).

Actually WPM does not beleive in opinions about scripture. I am not sure about you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually WPM does not beleive in opinions about scripture. I am not sure about you.

Of course I do. But, you don't like that I'm confident about my opinions for some reason. There is nothing wrong with confidence. My confidence comes not from myself, but from my belief that when I ask God for wisdom He then gives it to me because James said if we lack wisdom we can ask God for it and He will give it to us if we don't doubt (James 1:5-7).

 

[Scott Downey]

It's not your job to tell me that I'm supposedly ignoring something, either. I'm not ignoring anything. Obviously, I believe that our souls and spirits go to heaven when we die, so it's not as if I'm denying that. But, do you not believe that Jesus will be bringing heaven to us after we've been changed bodily when He comes again bodily in the future? I think He was talking about preparing the place for us where we will spend eternity with immortal bodies which is the new heaven and new earth.

That but also our citizenship is in heaven right now. So obviously we have a place made for us right now. As Paul told us about if our earthly tent is destroyed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That but also our citizenship is in heaven right now. So obviously we have a place made for us right now. As Paul told us about if our earthly tent is destroyed.

I don't deny that, but that doesn't really prove one way or another how we should interpret John 14:1-3 since He just as easily could have been talking about preparing a place for us that He would bring to us at His second coming that is fit for those with immortal bodies to dwell. Or are you saying He was doing both? I suppose that could be the case.

 

[Scott Downey]

Qpli

I don't deny that, but that doesn't really prove one way or another how we should interpret John 14:1-3 since He just as easily could have been talking about preparing a place for us that He would bring to us at His second coming that is fit for those with immortal bodies to dwell. Or are you saying He was doing both? I suppose that could be the case.

Both, all of the above. As in God takes care of His people and makes places for them in His heavenly kingdom(s), new heaven, old heaven.

 

[Scott Downey]

Of course I do. But, you don't like that I'm confident about my opinions for some reason. There is nothing wrong with confidence. My confidence comes not from myself, but from my belief that when I ask God for wisdom He then gives it to me because James said if we lack wisdom we can ask God for it and He will give it to us if we don't doubt (James 1:5-7).

Well, you are confident enough to disagree with my interpretations as you have said much earlier in this thread, I am also disagreeing with your own interpretations, but obviously not all of them. See, it cuts both ways.

 

[Scott Downey]

Why do you say it only proves that? Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that day that He died. That proves nothing about where the spirit of Jesus and of the thief on the cross would go that day? I'd say it does.

My view is the thief could not go into heaven at all until the resurrection of Christ.
As the eternal redemption had not yet been obtained....
Did you read what I posted about when the eternal redemption was obtained by Christ for us?

It was after God raised Him from the dead.

 

[WPM]

Why do you say it only proves that? Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that day that He died. That proves nothing about where the spirit of Jesus and of the thief on the cross would go that day? I'd say it does.

Exactly bro. We're talking about clear explicit simple language. It is not rocket science.

 

[WPM]

My view is the thief could not go into heaven at all until the resurrection of Christ. The scriptures little. Job
As the eternal redemption had not yet been obtained....
Did you read what I posted about when the eternal redemption was obtained by Christ for us?

It was after God raised Him from the dead.

That's exactly why you cannot take the Scriptures literally here. It cuts across your theory.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Qpli

Both, all of the above. As in God takes care of His people and makes places for them in His heavenly kingdom(s), new heaven, old heaven.

Sure. He certainly does do that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, you are confident enough to disagree with my interpretations as you have said much earlier in this thread, I am also disagreeing with your own interpretations, but obviously not all of them. See, it cuts both ways.

And I'm not offended that you disagree and are confident in your view. Why are you offended by my confidence?

 

[WPM]

That's exactly why you cannot take the Scripture literally. It cuts across your theory.

Once Christ defeated sin at the cross, and the debt had finally and fully been paid for His redeemed, Hades had no hold on them any more. The penalty was justly paid. Justice was met. Sin had been suitably punished. Hades could not hold Him. It could not keep Him. He broke its power in spirit by overcoming it, just like He broke the power of the grave 3 days later. He then ascended up to Hos Father.

There was a lot happening within a few days. The facts that many in Hades were physically resurrected reinforces this thought. This seemed to be a physical visible token of a wider spiritual whole, and a deeper victorious reality.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My view is the thief could not go into heaven at all until the resurrection of Christ.
As the eternal redemption had not yet been obtained....

Christ's bodily resurrection ensured the bodily resurrection and bodily redemption of the dead in Christ. What does that have to do with one's spirit going to heaven or not?

The spirits of believers were already separated from the spirits of unbelievers before that, so why does it matter that Jesus took the spirits of believers from one place that was only for believers (Abraham's bosom) to another place that was only for believers (paradise, the third heaven) upon His death? His resurrection was a guarantee when He died. His work was finished upon His death which is why He said "It is finished" just before He died. There was no question that He was going to be raised from the dead after that. It's not as if anything could stop God the Father from raising Jesus from the dead after He died. So, why wait to have the souls and spirits of the dead in Christ go to be in heaven with Him at that time?

Did you read what I posted about when the eternal redemption was obtained by Christ for us?

It was after God raised Him from the dead.

I don't recall. Which scriptures did you reference?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My view is the thief could not go into heaven at all until the resurrection of Christ.
As the eternal redemption had not yet been obtained....
Did you read what I posted about when the eternal redemption was obtained by Christ for us?

It was after God raised Him from the dead.

Let's cut to the chase here. How exactly do you interpret this passage:

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. 44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

 

[Scott Downey]

Let's cut to the chase here. How exactly do you interpret this passage:

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. 44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

I already told you, Paradise was Abraham's Bosum. What the thief says is irrelevant. Jesus tells the thief, the thief will be wherever Jesus is going. On the 3rd day Christ comes into his kingdom as in receives his kingdom. Christ does not receive all authority and power from the Father until after his ascension, until after his resurrection

John 20

The Empty Tomb​

1 Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”

3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. 4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. 5 And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the [a]handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not [b]know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again to their own homes.

Mary Magdalene Sees the Risen Lord​

11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”

She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”

14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”

She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”

She turned and said to [c]Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).

17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the [d]disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.