Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[Scott Downey]

And actually, clouds have a spiritual reality to them, as in they refer to more than the weather,
such as the Host of Heaven
Go ahead, laugh if you wish. I can't get rid of the numbers.

1. Matthew 17:5
   While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Matthew 24:30
   Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Matthew 26:64
   Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
4. 1 Corinthians 10:1
   

   Old Testament Examples​

   Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. 1 Corinthians 10:2
   all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
   
   
6. 1 Thessalonians 4:17
   Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Hebrews 12:1

The Race of Faith​

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

2 Peter 2:17
These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


Jude 1:12

Apostates Depraved and Doomed​

These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 11:12
And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

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Example, this cloud must be all the saints and angels returning with Christ

Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I already told you, Paradise was Abraham's Bosum.

What evidence do you have to support that idea?

What the thief says is irrelevant.

What does this mean? Jesus was responding to what the thief requested him to do.

Jesus tells the thief, the thief will be wherever Jesus is going.

Yes, and He specifically told him that he would be with Him in paradise that day. You seem to ignore or overlook that for some reason. Why is that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And actually, clouds have a spiritual reality to them, as in they refer to more than the weather,
such as the Host of Heaven
Go ahead, laugh if you wish. I can't get rid of the numbers.

Angels are referred to as "the clouds of heaven" if that's what you mean. I assume you're not talking about the rain clouds in the sky? And what is the point of all this, anyway?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know you, anyone who disagrees with you is to be considered heretic.

LOL. No one is calling you a heretic for this particular belief that you have. It's not a major issue.

 

[Scott Downey]

LOL. No one is calling you a heretic for this particular belief that you have. It's not a major issue.

When someone says it is 'hearsay' evidence, that is the definition of heresy, heretic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He was there till the 3rd day when God raised Him from the dead.

Why would the spirit of Jesus have went to Hades/hell for 3 days? What would have been the purpose of that?

 

[Scott Downey]

What evidence do you have to support that idea?


What does this mean? Jesus was responding to what the thief requested him to do.


Yes, and He specifically told him that he would be with Him in paradise that day. You seem to ignore or overlook that for some reason. Why is that?

Well, this guy has a decent explanation, why not take a few minutes to read?

Where Did Jesus Go After His Crucifixion?

Where did Jesus go between the time of his crucifixion and his resurrection three days later? That question apparently has been in hot debate since the second and third century. The question speaks…

biblicallogos.org

 

[Scott Downey]

Why would the spirit of Jesus have went to Hades/hell for 3 days? What would have been the purpose of that?

Why would God wait for 3 days and 3 nights to raise Christ from the dead.
What would have been the purpose for that?
That is something God purposed to do.
Do you care to speculate?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When someone says it is 'hearsay' evidence, that is the definition of heresy, heretic.

Nope.

Hearsay (noun): information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.

A heretic, in relation to Jesus and to Christianity, is someone who denies the truth of Jesus and of Christianity itself. Someone who believes something that denies who Jesus is and what He did for us. You're not doing that. You're just disagreeing about when His spirit went to heaven and when He brought the souls and spirits of OT saints to heaven. To be wrong about that is not heretical. It's not a crucial doctrine of Christianity. If He did that 3 days before you thought He did, does that change anything about what He did or deny who He is? No. So, it's not heretical.

I could say that someone has hearsay evidence for a pre-trib rapture. Am I then calling them a heretic? No. A heretic is someone who is not a Christian and believes things that go against who Jesus is and against Christianity itself.

 

[Scott Downey]

Why would the spirit of Jesus have went to Hades/hell for 3 days? What would have been the purpose of that?

Angels are referred to as "the clouds of heaven" if that's what you mean. I assume you're not talking about the rain clouds in the sky? And what is the point of all this, anyway?

The point is in Acts 1, at Christ's ascension, a cloud received Him.
I suppose heaven could have rain clouds but no one of us can know that.

That cloud would have included the dead OT saints that Christ brought with Him out of hades-etc... various names of the place of the righteous dead where they had been. And then they all together ascended into heaven.

John 14
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Several applications of v6 are true, actually ascending and spiritually.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would God wait for 3 days and 3 nights to raise Christ from the dead.
What would have been the purpose for that?
That is something God purposed to do.
Do you care to speculate?

Is your answer to my question "I don't know" then? If so, just say so. But, I'm not asking the question you're asking, I'm asking why Jesus would need to go to Hades/hell in particular which is the place where the spirits of unsaved people go when they die?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The point is in Acts 1, at Christ's ascension, a cloud received Him.
I suppose heaven could have rain clouds but no one of us can know that.

That cloud would have included the dead OT saints that Christ brought with Him out of hades-etc... various names of the place of the righteous dead where they had been. And then they all together ascended into heaven.

John 14
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Several applications of v6 are true, actually ascending and spiritually.

What does this have to do with the discussion we were having?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, this guy has a decent explanation, why not take a few minutes to read?

Where Did Jesus Go After His Crucifixion?

Where did Jesus go between the time of his crucifixion and his resurrection three days later? That question apparently has been in hot debate since the second and third century. The question speaks…

biblicallogos.org

I normally do not go to external sites that people share on here because I'm here to talk to you and the people who are here, not to Clark Becker. I can't talk to him. But, I made an exception this time. His argument about Jesus saying He had not yet ascended to the Father in heaven when talking to Mary after His resurrection is invalid. He was only talking about BODILY ascending to heaven there. He had not yet BODILY ascended to heaven. That says nothing one way or another about whether His SPIRIT had been in heaven.

 

[Scott Downey]

Is your answer to my question "I don't know" then? If so, just say so. But, I'm not asking the question you're asking, I'm asking why Jesus would need to go to Hades/hell in particular which is the place where the spirits of unsaved people go when they die?

Because He had to be made just like His brethren, so as to fully identify with the people of God and be their Savior.
That is why Christ had to experience fully being human and experience all that it means.

Do you not believe death had dominion over Christ until God raised His from the dead?

Romans 6:9
knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

God raised Christ on the third day from the dead, so until God did that, he was in the realm of the dead, under it's dominion.

***********************************************************

Hebrews 2

Bringing Many Sons to Glory​

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ experienced the pain of DEATH, what Peter wrote here is not the pain of crucifixion
Christ being the Lord of Life, of course it must have been a pain to be in submission to the place of the dead, under its dominion!
This was the will of God.
However, I imagine crucifixion was more painful.

Christ was only LOOSED from the pain of death on the third day.

Acts 2
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

 

[WPM]

What evidence do you have to support that idea?


What does this mean? Jesus was responding to what the thief requested him to do.


Yes, and He specifically told him that he would be with Him in paradise that day. You seem to ignore or overlook that for some reason. Why is that?

It is all in his head.

 

[WPM]

You prefer to believe Christ went into glory immediately after His crucifixion death, where does scripture say that?

No. You seem to have a reading or comprehension difficulty. I am getting weary sharing this and you ignoring. He descended into Abraham's bosom 1st and took captivity captive and took them to paradise.

 

[Scott Downey]

It is all in his head.

My last 2 posts are proof enough, but you are not willing to accept the scripture.
Are you someone who will never admit fault, being wrong about Christian teaching?

 

[WPM]

My last 2 posts are proof enough, but you are not willing to accept the scripture.
Are you someone who will never admit fault, being wrong about Christian teaching?

LOL. You are describing yourself. You are a projectionist. I will ask the question you have no answer for and let the reader decide if you have hard Scripture.

Where in Scripture teaches that Abrahams bosom is paradise?

 

[Scott Downey]

No. You seem to have a reading or comprehension difficulty. I am getting weary sharing this and you ignoring. He descended into Abraham's bosom 1st and took captivity captive and took them to paradise.

Eden was Paradise before the fall, then paradise after the flood becomes the place of the righteous dead for OC believers, and then Christ brings it into heaven. And in the New earth, Christ brings paradise back down to earth. God planted these gardens, so they are His creations, and they served His purposes.

The tree of life was in Eden in the beginning, and the tree of life is in Paradise at the end. Both Eden and Paradise are gardens planted by the Lord. God said Eden went down into the depths of the earth, in other words the place of the dead, the place Christ said He would be for 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth.

Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

Ezekiel 31, referring to Pharoah-Egypt this,
15 “Thus says the Lord God: ‘In the day when it went down to [e]hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to [f]mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to [g]hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17 They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.

18 ‘To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,’ says the Lord God.”

And this

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

********************************

Therefore, Christ when He said He would be in Paradise, went into the heart of the earth, where Paradise was, back then 2000 years ago.