The end of the world, as taught by Christ, separates the wicked from the just at the harvest, and it is coming for you.

[Scott Downey]

Here’s the thing, we know those under the burden of the old covenant were allowed to continue in their practices by the apostles. That fits the parable where the wheat allowed the tares to grow together until a 70AD harvest took place.

I don't really agree with you on that. That was not what God was doing in the New Covenant. Maybe just James who influenced Peter and perhaps John, certainly not Paul who saw through the deception and called them hypocrites.

 

[WPM]

Mathew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

*********************************************
When Christ returns, the separating out of one from the other, both who are in this world occurs.
Christ compares the end of the world to come and the glories that are to follow as harvesting-gathering, such as of grain, fish. Where the good ones, declared just by God by their faith are separated from the bad ones, the unjust, who have no faith in God.
**********************************************

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

************************************************************

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

************************************************

At the end of this world, what comes next is the appearing of His kingdom on the new earth
We get a new earth and a new heaven in which dwells no evil thing.

The cause of the fall in Eden was evil in both heaven and earth in the form of celestial heavenly beings, Satan and his angels, who rebelled against God and Christ.

Clear to the undoctrinated.

 

[WPM]

The tares got into the kingdom under the old covenant. Under the new covenant only believers are allowed to enter the kingdom. When the old covenant age finally came to an end the tares were removed at that time.

The theological manipulation that Premil requires is breathtaking. Your words above are another reason to reject Premil.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, under the new covenant only believers can enter the kingdom. I’m a believer and have entered the kingdom.

I don't say otherwise.

You have to have two kingdoms in order to get the unsaved into the kingdom before they finally get removed at a future harvest.

You're not following what Jesus said about the field being His field and that the field represents the world, making it His world and therefor His kingdom in the sense that He has authority over this entire world/earth. Do you believe that Jesus has authority over the entire world/earth?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The theological manipulation that Premil requires is breathtaking. Your words above are another reason to reject Premil.

He's not Premil, he's Postmil. He claims to be a partial preterist, but is as close to being a full preterist as someone can get without being one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here’s the thing, we know those under the burden of the old covenant were allowed to continue in their practices by the apostles.

That does not mean they were required to do so. The old covenant was obsolete, dead and no longer in effect once the veil of the temple was torn in two. That people continued to foolishly keep themselves under the old covenant for some time afterwards is irrelevant in terms of determining when the old covenant ended.

That fits the parable where the wheat allowed the tares to grow together until a 70AD harvest took place.

No, it does not. Preterism doesn't fit that parable whatsoever. Who was cast into the fire where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth in 70 AD? No one. There was no end to any age in 70 AD, either. You are deceived by false preterist doctrine.

 

[dremnant]

Mathew 13
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

*********************************************
When Christ returns, the separating out of one from the other, both who are in this world occurs.
Christ compares the end of the world to come and the glories that are to follow as harvesting-gathering, such as of grain, fish. Where the good ones, declared just by God by their faith are separated from the bad ones, the unjust, who have no faith in God.
**********************************************

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

************************************************************

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

************************************************

At the end of this world, what comes next is the appearing of His kingdom on the new earth
We get a new earth and a new heaven in which dwells no evil thing.

The cause of the fall in Eden was evil in both heaven and earth in the form of celestial heavenly beings, Satan and his angels, who rebelled against God and Christ.

These texts and the text in Revelation 20:11-15 describe the same exact thing. I noticed many here have difficulty reconciling this.

I'm still trying to understand those engaged in the Amillenialist vs Premillennialist debate, because some of them labels me as a member of (and sometimes accusing me of promoting or speaking for) one of these 2 groups.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These texts and the text in Revelation 20:11-15 describe the same exact thing. I noticed many here have difficulty reconciling this.

I'm still trying to understand those engaged in the Amillenialist vs Premillennialist debate, because some of them labels me as a member of (and sometimes accusing me of promoting or speaking for) one of these 2 groups.

First, do you know what Amillennialists and Premillennialists believe? If not, then it might help if you did some research on that.

The belief in one judgment is something Amillennialists believe. So, you share that belief with us. Premillennialists believe in multiple judgments.

And "these texts" that you referred to, which are the parable of the wheat and tares and the parable of the fishing net, talk about something that occurs at the end of the age, which means you would agree that Revelation 20:11-15 occurs at the end of the age. Do you agree that Jesus will return at the end of the age, as I believe Matthew 24:3 implies? If so, then that would make you an Amillennialist because that would place the thousand years before His return instead of after.

 

[grafted branch]

You're not following what Jesus said about the field being His field and that the field represents the world, making it His world and therefor His kingdom in the sense that He has authority over this entire world/earth. Do you believe that Jesus has authority over the entire world/earth?

Jesus sowed on this planet, not in heaven, which is why the parable describes the field as the world.

In Matthew 13:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing in His field when He spoke those words. He was physically on the planet at that time.

This means there was a physical place on earth that was considered His field at that time. It couldn’t have been the entire planet unless you think Jesus was given the earth for His possession prior to the cross.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

 

[Behold]

the wicked from among the just,

"the wicked.....from the Just".

"From", is being used here to make a distinction between, the wicked and the just.

So, regarding going to heaven....... the "wicked" are simply everyone who died like this....... = John 3:36

See, the wickedness that keeps you from Heaven, and sends you to hell is not your lifestyle........its your lack of Salvation.

So, those who are "just".......HAVE received God's Salvation, before they died.... and they are "JUSTIFIED" by God, based on The Cross of Christ.....

whereas...

The "wicked" are those who died unforgiven, never born again, never "justified"... and are spiritually the children of the Devil.

This is why Jesus said of all the unbelievers.......worldwide......right now......"""YOU are of YOUR Father, the Devil"... "and the LUSTS (sin) of your FATHER, you shall do".""

vs..... the Christian who is eternally "Justified" before God, as having become : "made righteous"...

So, you have the "made righteous", .. vs... the "wicked".......in this world right now, and in the world to come, also.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus sowed on this planet, not in heaven, which is why the parable describes the field as the world.

Of course. Do you think I said otherwise? If so, what did I say to make you think that?

In Matthew 13:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing in His field when He spoke those words. He was physically on the planet at that time.

This means there was a physical place on earth that was considered His field at that time. It couldn’t have been the entire planet unless you think Jesus was given the earth for His possession prior to the cross.

What are you talking about?

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Jesus said the field represented the world. Why are you trying to change that? What else does "the world" mean except for the earth?

Are you somehow not aware that Jesus reigns over the entire earth?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

This passage is talking about Jesus destroying His enemies when He returns and has nothing to do with the fact that He currently reigns over the earth. He is not yet destroying all of His enemies.

 

[grafted branch]

What are you talking about?

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world

I’m talking about the phrase “the field is the world”. That statement was made prior to the cross, when the sowing took place. If you think that meant that Jesus had possession of the entire world prior to the cross then you need to provide the verses that show that.

I showed you Psalm 2:8 which shows the utter parts of the earth were not in Jesus’ possession before the cross. Therefore the statement “the field is the world” is making the distinction that the sowing takes place on earth vs heaven. The parable is about the kingdom of heaven and the sowing takes place on earth not heaven, that is what that statement conveys.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m talking about the phrase “the field is the world”.

And why are you interpreting "the world" to be something other than, you know...the world?

That statement was made prior to the cross, when the sowing took place. If you think that meant that Jesus had possession of the entire world prior to the cross then you need to provide the verses that show that.

It doesn't matter when the statement was made. He was talking about something that was going to happen after the cross when the gospel was going to be preached in the world. He knew that by then He would have all power in heaven and earth, just as He said He did (Matt 28:18).

I showed you Psalm 2:8 which shows the utter parts of the earth were not in Jesus’ possession before the cross. Therefore the statement “the field is the world” is making the distinction that the sowing takes place on earth vs heaven. The parable is about the kingdom of heaven and the sowing takes place on earth not heaven, that is what that statement conveys.

For goodness sakes, we're not talking about something that was happening before the cross here, it's about what was going to happen in the world when the gospel was preached.

So, tell me, what do you think "the world" represents in the parable then if not the entire world?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't really agree with you on that. That was not what God was doing in the New Covenant. Maybe just James who influenced Peter and perhaps John, certainly not Paul who saw through the deception and called them hypocrites.

Agree. The following passage makes it quite clear that no one was encouraged to continue following the old covenant law of Moses after Jesus established the new covenant with His blood.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Paul clearly did not believe that anyone should still be putting themselves under the law of the old covenant anymore at that point. He called such people "foolish". Under the new covenant, we live by faith. Anyone who tries to live under the old covenant and the works of the law put themselves "under the curse" and they are "foolish".

 

[grafted branch]

And why are you interpreting "the world" to be something other than, you know...the world?

I’m not, the world is the planet, that’s where the field was. Is it really that difficult for you?

It doesn't matter when the statement was made. He was talking about something that was going to happen after the cross when the gospel was going to be preached in the world. He knew that by then He would have all power in heaven and earth, just as He said He did (Matt 28:18).

Wrong! In Matthew 13:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing in His field when He spoke those words, prior to the cross.

For goodness sakes, we're not talking about something that was happening before the cross here, it's about what was going to happen in the world when the gospel was preached.

So, tell me, what do you think "the world" represents in the parable then if not the entire world?

Wrong again, this is why you have two kingdoms.

The “world” was His field where His ministry took place (where He sowed) on this physical planet. Currently He is seated at the right hand of God. He is not physically sowing on this planet right now.

 

[Scott Downey]

First, do you know what Amillennialists and Premillennialists believe? If not, then it might help if you did some research on that.

The belief in one judgment is something Amillennialists believe. So, you share that belief with us. Premillennialists believe in multiple judgments.

And "these texts" that you referred to, which are the parable of the wheat and tares and the parable of the fishing net, talk about something that occurs at the end of the age, which means you would agree that Revelation 20:11-15 occurs at the end of the age. Do you agree that Jesus will return at the end of the age, as I believe Matthew 24:3 implies? If so, then that would make you an Amillennialist because that would place the thousand years before His return instead of after.

Simply that the millennial reign is ongoing in heaven right now in the heavenly city, the new Jerusalem, it is a current reality.

 

[Scott Downey]

I’m not, the world is the planet, that’s where the field was. Is it really that difficult for you?


Wrong! In Matthew 13:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing in His field when He spoke those words, prior to the cross.


Wrong again, this is why you have two kingdoms.

The “world” was His field where His ministry took place (where He sowed) on this physical planet. Currently He is seated at the right hand of God. He is not physically sowing on this planet right now.

I don't think you understand that Christ's sowing is a spiritual matter, as in we being born of the Spirit of God. Your believing all that is in the long ago ancient past, and does not fit what God does today. Christ sows the good seed, as in believers, whom He has chosen beforehand, which is why they believe in Christ. It is true that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of this world, read Ephesians 1, BUT this HE works in our lives in our time on this earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m not, the world is the planet, that’s where the field was. Is it really that difficult for you?

You're the one making things difficult. So, you understand that when Jesus said it's "His field" then he's saying it's His world, right?

And He said He reigns over the entire world/earth, did He not? Yes, He did. So, in that sense, He could call the world "His kingdom" and be correct about that in the sense that He reigns as King over His world(earth) that He created.

Wrong! In Matthew 13:37 the word “sowing” <4687> is a present tense verb, so we know the Son of man was sowing in His field when He spoke those words, prior to the cross.

It's present tense as of the time it's actually happening. How can you not understand that He was talking about what would happen when the gospel was preached? What else do you think He was talking about?

Wrong again, this is why you have two kingdoms.

Do you agree that Jesus reigns as King over the entire earth right now? If you do, then can't there be a sense in which the world is His kingdom? In the sense that He has authority over it? Yet, there's also the kingdom that does not come with observation and is not worldly that only those who belong to Him are in. So, with all that in mind, what is the problem with seeing two kingdoms in two different senses?

The “world” was His field where His ministry took place (where He sowed) on this physical planet. Currently He is seated at the right hand of God. He is not physically sowing on this planet right now.

Yes, He most certainly is and it's through us! How can you be this lacking in discernment? Do you not know that He dwells in us? Are we not on the earth? Is He not working through us by way of His Spirit?

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Simply that the millennial reign is ongoing in heaven right now in the heavenly city, the new Jerusalem, it is a current reality.

It goes on here on earth as well since Jesus lives in us and we too are priests of God the Father and Christ (Revelation 1:5-6) just as those souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven.

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ sows the good seed... as in we who have believed are the good seed. We were chosen to be in Christ before time began, so we are the good seed Christ plants us here in the earth and we grow and learn from the Father and then we receive Him as Lord and are saved. This is according to the POWER OF GOD on our behalf. This calling was not given to all people. It was only given to the good seed.

2 Timothy1

Not Ashamed of the Gospel​

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.