The end of the world, as taught by Christ, separates the wicked from the just at the harvest, and it is coming for you.

[grafted branch]

I don't think you understand that Christ's sowing is a spiritual matter, as in we being born of the Spirit of God. Your believing all that is in the long ago ancient past, and does not fit what God does today. Christ sows the good seed, as in believers, whom He has chosen beforehand, which is why they believe in Christ. It is true that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of this world, read Ephesians 1, BUT this HE works in our lives in our time on this earth.

I differentiate between Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God is omnipresent so no one can argue against Jesus currently being on earth, but I try to follow the wording that the scriptures use and that is that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God until His enemies are made His footstool.

I suppose if you wanted to you could even argue that Jesus returned just after He ascended in Acts 1:9 and that is really what it would have to be if you claim He is currently sowing on earth.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes, He most certainly is and it's through us! How can you be this lacking in discernment? Do you not know that He dwells in us? Are we not on the earth? Is He not working through us by way of His Spirit?

So I guess you have no issues with someone claiming Christ came in 70AD since you have no problem with Him currently actually being here on earth sowing in His field which is the physical planet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So I guess you have no issues with someone claiming Christ came in 70AD since you have no problem with Him currently actually being here on earth sowing in His field which is the physical planet.

Why do you not address what I said? Do you agree that He dwells in us spiritually or not?

Of course I have issues with someone claiming Christ came in 70 AD since scripture never teaches that. Does context mean nothing to you? Him coming to dwell in our hearts spiritually is not the same as Him supposedly coming to destroy Jerusalem. Jesus Himself taught that it was God the Father who destroyed Jerusalem because of their treatment of His Son.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I differentiate between Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God is omnipresent so no one can argue against Jesus currently being on earth, but I try to follow the wording that the scriptures use and that is that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God until His enemies are made His footstool.

You shouldn't completely differentiate between Jesus and the Holy Spirit. You can differentiate between the human part of Jesus and deity of Jesus, but the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ. What do you make of scripture like this...

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Philippians 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. 19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I suppose if you wanted to you could even argue that Jesus returned just after He ascended in Acts 1:9 and that is really what it would have to be if you claim He is currently sowing on earth.

He didn't return bodily, but He does come to dwell spiritually in the hearts of each believer. If He is working through us, then can we not say that He is currently sowing on earth?

 

[WPM]

He's not Premil, he's Postmil. He claims to be a partial preterist, but is as close to being a full preterist as someone can get without being one.

Regardless, deception is written all over that.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus does not and never did physically sow good seeds. And he does not and would not need to come back and do that. These are spiritual realities, not physical ones, such as being born of God. The 2 parables in this thread were illustrations so that the people who were familiar with planting and harvesting or fishing and sorting the catch could personally relate to something God does in the spiritual realm.

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;

The people were already doing similar things. God does likewise, in God's own way.

 

[Davidpt]

These texts and the text in Revelation 20:11-15 describe the same exact thing. I noticed many here have difficulty reconciling this.

I'm still trying to understand those engaged in the Amillenialist vs Premillennialist debate, because some of them labels me as a member of (and sometimes accusing me of promoting or speaking for) one of these 2 groups.

When do you take the thousand years to be meaning? Before the 2nd coming or after the 2nd coming? If the former that makes you either Amil or Postmil. If the latter that makes you Premil. But this doesn't mean you have to agree with everything one of these groups you fit into does.

 

[Scott Downey]

Why do you not address what I said? Do you agree that He dwells in us spiritually or not?

Of course I have issues with someone claiming Christ came in 70 AD since scripture never teaches that. Does context mean nothing to you? Him coming to dwell in our hearts spiritually is not the same as Him supposedly coming to destroy Jerusalem. Jesus Himself taught that it was God the Father who destroyed Jerusalem because of their treatment of His Son.

Yes, we are still waiting for the return of Christ, example here in Acts 3.
20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before,
21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began


For reference in context,

Preaching in Solomon’s Portico​

11 Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon’s, greatly amazed. 12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the [b]Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

And faith comes through Him, as in your faith is God's gift, God granted you to come to Christ, read John 6.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

Philippians 1

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

 

[Davidpt]

the times of restoration of all things

What should we make of this part? And how long should we assume this involves once it begins? Keeping in mind, it is obviously connected with the following, for one.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Can what is recorded here be fulfilled in a single day? But not according to Amil reasoning per their doctrinal bias', but according to plain ole' common sense. Does common sense tell us that Matthew 19:28 can be fulfilled in a single day?

Also, is there any reason to think 'the times of restoration of all things' and 'in the regeneration'---that these are not involving the same events, not involving the same era of time?

 

[Scott Downey]

What should we make of this part? And how long should we assume this involves once it begins? Keeping in mind, it is obviously connected with the following, for one.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Can what is recorded here be fulfilled in a single day? But not according to Amil reasoning per their doctrinal bias', but according to plain ole' common sense. Does common sense tell us that Matthew 19:28 can be fulfilled in a single day?

Also, is there any reason to think 'the times of restoration of all things' and 'in the regeneration'---that these are not involving the same events, not involving the same era of time?

That is actually part of Matthew 25 and the judgment
So we know when Christ returns, it is the last day of this world, and the resurrection, regeneration, (new earth new heaven), judgment, the reward of the saints.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Yes, all of this happens on the last day, God has appointed a DAY for all these things, not a time of days.

The ressurection of the dead is on that Day

Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.”

 

[Davidpt]

That is actually part of Matthew 25 and the judgment
So we know when Christ returns, it is the last day of this world, and the resurrection, regeneration, (new earth new heaven), judgment, the reward of the saints.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Yes, all of this happens on the last day, God has appointed a DAY for all these things, not a time of days.

The ressurection of the dead is on that Day

Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.”

Since I assume you obviously take the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment to be one and the same, can you then point out in any of those texts where you see anyone judging anyone other than Christ Himself alone being the one judging everyone? Unless you can prove that per the texts, you don't have an argument at all, in regards to Matthew 19:28.

Judging doesn't always mean in the sense you are apparently taking it to mean in Matthew 19:28. Sometimes it is meaning in another sense, like 1 Corinthians 6, for example. Do you think what that chapter is involving, that a single day can explain all of that? Some of it he was applying to the here and now. Some of it he is applying to the future once Christ returns. What he was applying to the here and now certainly doesn't involve just one single day. The same should be true pertaining to the future.

 

[Scott Downey]

Since I assume you obviously take the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment to be one and the same, can you then point out in any of those texts where you see anyone judging anyone other than Christ Himself alone being the one judging everyone? Unless you can prove that per the texts, you don't have an argument at all, in regards to Matthew 19:28.

Judging doesn't always mean in the sense you are apparently taking it to mean in Matthew 19:28. Sometimes it is meaning in another sense, like 1 Corinthians 6, for example. Do you think what that chapter is involving, that a single day can explain all of that? Some of it he was applying to the here and now. Some of it he is applying to the future once Christ returns. What he was applying to the here and now certainly doesn't involve just one single day. The same should be true pertaining to the future.

I don't have to prove anything. I don't have an argument at all you claim, well yuck, you sound pompous. People already have decided for themselves what to believe. You know God does His judgment in one Day, the Day of the Lord. Christ has said the apostles will be judging on other matters. Paul says we will judge angels too. The Day of the Lord judgement is for eternal life and eternal death for all people.

 

[Scott Downey]

John 5
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man

 

[Scott Downey]

Some here now say it is impossible for the Day of Judgment to just be one Day, must take much longer, how long, many days, weeks even, yeah sure, believe what you will.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 9

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

Romans 9:28 Commentaries: FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."

 

[Scott Downey]

Luke 22
29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

An ongoing judging, as in rulership over them with authority. Not a judgment Christ does for eternal life and death on the Last Day.

People here try to set a trap to catch the unwary in a delusion of their own making.

 

[Scott Downey]

What really is regeneration? Well when people are regenerated by the Spirit, we are made New Creations in Christ.

2 Cor 5
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Titus 3
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

So what happens in the regeneration of the creation?
Scripture tells us we get New Earth and New Heavens in which dwells righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. (earthly politics of nations, angel tells John the waters which you saw, look it up)

Revelation 21:4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Old is gone, the new is here! Same phraseology is used by God to describe regeneration in that the old things have passed away.
Various versions talk about this as a new world to come. Peter called it the restoration of all things. Creation remade to something like Eden was before there was anything evil in all of creation.
Logically, people are regenerated spiritually, then at the return of Christ, the earth and heavens are regenerated physically, and we inherit that new regenerated, restored earth.

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.


KJ21
And Jesus said unto them, “Verily I say unto you, that ye that have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

AMP
Jesus said to them, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, in the renewal [that is, the Messianic restoration and regeneration of all things] when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you [who have followed Me, becoming My disciples] will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
AMPC
Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, in the new age [the Messianic rebirth of the world], when the Son of Man shall sit down on the throne of His glory, you who have [become My disciples, sided with My party and] followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

ERV
Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
EASY
Jesus said to his disciples, ‘I tell you this: One day God will cause all things to become new. I, the Son of Man, will sit on my great throne as King and I will rule that new world. You who are my disciples will also sit like kings on thrones. You will judge the people of the 12 tribes of Israel.
EHV
Jesus said to them, “Amen I tell you: In the renewal, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
ESV
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
ESVUK
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
EXB
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, ·when the age to come has arrived [at the renewal of the world; L in the regeneration], the Son of Man [Dan. 7:13–14] will sit on his ·great [glorious] throne. All of you who followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
GNV
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say to you, that when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his Majesty, ye which followed me in the regeneration, shall sit also upon twelve thrones, and judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
GW
Jesus said to them, “I can guarantee this truth: When the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the world to come, you, my followers, will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
GNT
Jesus said to them, “You can be sure that when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the New Age, then you twelve followers of mine will also sit on thrones, to rule the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[grafted branch]

Why do you not address what I said? Do you agree that He dwells in us spiritually or not?

I do agree with Jesus spiritually dwelling in us, the point I was making was that I can claim there was a coming of Jesus at anytime I want using your logic.

You don’t seem to understand that once you accept a certain method of interpretation we should be able to apply that method elsewhere. You disagree with a 70AD coming yet I can show it as a possibility using your hermeneutics.

You are a master at changing your method of interpretation to support a position then denying anyone else from using that same method of interpretation to support their position.

Of course I have issues with someone claiming Christ came in 70 AD since scripture never teaches that. Does context mean nothing to you?

Of course context matters. The context of the parable was the kingdom of heaven and you have added a second kingdom to that context to make it work for you. When I add a coming in 70AD that changed the context according to you. You can change the context but I’m not allowed to change the context.

Apparently those who have agreed with your post also agree with this kind of thinking.

 

[grafted branch]

Regardless, deception is written all over that.

You’re absolutely right, deception is written all over @Spiritual Israelite posts.

Here’s what I have learned about him so far, sometimes a verse needs to be interpreted in such a way that it doesn’t agree with any other verses, even if it contains the very same wording as other verses.

We can place time gaps in a sequence of events, like where he has a gap when the rest of the dead don’t live after the thousand years but after Satan’s little season. Satan’s little season is inserted after the millennium just like Premill inserts the times of the Gentiles in between week 69 and 70.

And now I’ve also learned that there are really two kingdoms that are taking place simultaneously, a physical one which we can observe and a spiritual one we can’t.

Are you agreeing with his two kingdoms idea? It appears to me that his Amill position is so weak that it has to succumb to these types of shenanigans.

 

[Davidpt]

KJ21
And Jesus said unto them, “Verily I say unto you, that ye that have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

AMP
Jesus said to them, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, in the renewal [that is, the Messianic restoration and regeneration of all things] when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you [who have followed Me, becoming My disciples] will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
AMPC
Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, in the new age [the Messianic rebirth of the world], when the Son of Man shall sit down on the throne of His glory, you who have [become My disciples, sided with My party and] followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

ERV
Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
EASY
Jesus said to his disciples, ‘I tell you this: One day God will cause all things to become new. I, the Son of Man, will sit on my great throne as King and I will rule that new world. You who are my disciples will also sit like kings on thrones. You will judge the people of the 12 tribes of Israel.
EHV
Jesus said to them, “Amen I tell you: In the renewal, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
ESV
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
ESVUK
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
EXB
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, ·when the age to come has arrived [at the renewal of the world; L in the regeneration], the Son of Man [Dan. 7:13–14] will sit on his ·great [glorious] throne. All of you who followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
GNV
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say to you, that when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his Majesty, ye which followed me in the regeneration, shall sit also upon twelve thrones, and judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
GW
Jesus said to them, “I can guarantee this truth: When the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the world to come, you, my followers, will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
GNT
Jesus said to them, “You can be sure that when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the New Age, then you twelve followers of mine will also sit on thrones, to rule the twelve tribes of Israel.

And guess what those translations support? Reigning with Christ a thousand years. Too bad Amils can't apply any of that to when their proposed millennium is meaning. You would think Revelation 3:21, for one, should be coming to mind.

What I'm arguing is that they don't sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel all throughout eternity, nor do they do this for only one day. Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days following the last day of this age.

At least these translations show that they begin sitting on 12 thrones once Christ has returned, rather than before He returns. And this presents a problem for Amil unless this is meaning all throughout eternity they do this. Except we know it can't be meaning all throughout eternity since that would contradict the following, for one.


1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


And once again, it is beyond absurd that they only sit on these 12 thrones for just one day, meaning the same day Christ returns. Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days after the last day of this age. Per Premil this is not an issue whatsoever. BTW, this doesn't mean I think 12 literal thrones are involved or something. That is irrelevant in regards to the points I'm attempting to make. Which mainly have to do with how much time are they allotted to do these things, sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Amil has no answer for that, Premil does.