Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hebrews 2:8 quotes Psalm 8:6. In other words, Paul did not write "Thou has put all things in subjection under his feet." David wrote those words, and the focus of David's wonder was God's promise through Nathan that one of his descendants would rule over the nations forever.

Psalm 8:6 states, "You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet." Some scholars interpret this verse as a prolepsis, meaning it describes a future reality as if it has already happened. This passage is linked to Christ's ultimate reign, which was not yet fully realized at the time of writing, at the time Paul wrote Hebrews, and at the time of the New Testament.

Paul clarified his position, reminding his readers that "we do not yet see all things subjected to him."

Psalm 8:6 is a prophecy. Paul quoted the fulfillment of Psalm 8:6 and applied it to all things having been placed under Jesus's feet.

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

This verse is speaking in the present tense. At the time this was written God the Father had already "put all things in subjection under his feet" and "left nothing that is not put under him". That is present tense, so it means all current things are under Him. That lines up with what Jesus Himself said in Matthew 28:18 when He said He was given all power and authority in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18) and with what Paul taught here:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Here, Paul gives the same timing of when God the Father "put all things under his feet" as when He "gave him to be the head over all things to the church". Surely, you would not dare say that He was not made "the head over all things to the church" upon His resurrection! So, why deny that all things were put under His feet at that time as well when Paul explicitly said so?

The reason it then says "But now we see not yet all things put under him." in Hebrews 2:8 is that all CURRENT things are under His feet, but there are things that do not yet exist that are not yet under His feet. There will be many babies born tomorrow. They are not yet under Him, but once they are born they will be.

To reiterate for emphasis, let me repeat my previous point that Paul is quoting Psalm 8. Whatever was true at the time David wrote his poem was true when Paul wrote his epistle. Since David spoke about a future event as if it had already happened, Paul is also speaking about a future event as if it had already happened. Paul first repeated the prolepsis, then he clarified it. Placing everything under the feet of Jesus Christ remains a future event.

If that was the case, then why did he write about the same thing in present tense in Ephesians 1:19-22? Unless you think that Jesus is not currently "the head over all things to the church"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Absolutely did not suffer. Did any of the OT saint's in Abraham's bosom suffer? They received good things.
It was a pleasant part of hades (place of the OT saints in death), who could not be perfected in Christ and enter heaven until Christ's resurrection. Jesus tells the thief with Him on the cross, that very day they would be in Paradise. The Greeks called it Elysian fields.

Another thing is this about angels,

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Which means in Paradise, etc.., even back before Christ, are the angels of God ministering to the saints who receive good things, while the wicked receive bad things. They could still see each other side and communicate, until Christ came and led this captivity in death captive with Him into heaven at His ascension.

The relevant text, this is what existed before Christ's resurrection. The only part that remains of the place of the dead today is fiery torments.

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [h]fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with [i]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

Jesus referred to Hades, which is also translated as "hell", a place of torments for the unsaved dead. From where do you get the idea that Abraham's bosom was part of Hades? Jesus indicated that there was "a great gulf" between Hades and Abraham's bosom, so He differentiated between Hades and Abraham's bosom.

 

[WPM]

Absolutely did not suffer. Did any of the OT saint's in Abraham's bosom suffer? They received good things.
It was a pleasant part of hades (place of the OT saints in death), who could not be perfected in Christ and enter heaven until Christ's resurrection. Jesus tells the thief with Him on the cross, that very day they would be in Paradise. The Greeks called it Elysian fields.

Another thing is this about angels,

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

Which means in Paradise, etc.., even back before Christ, are the angels of God ministering to the saints who receive good things, while the wicked receive bad things. They could still see each other side and communicate, until Christ came and led this captivity in death captive with Him into heaven at His ascension.

The relevant text, this is what existed before Christ's resurrection. The only part that remains of the place of the dead today is fiery torments.

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [h]fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with [i]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

Bro, you are not providing any evidence that Abraham's bosom was paradise - nothing. I think you know that. The fact the Greeks called it Elysian fields means nothing. Not sure what that has to do with anything. The Greek word used was paradeisos, which other Scripture locates in the 3rd heaven.

What has Hebrews 1:14 to do with this? What does that prove on this matter? Nothing.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bro, you are not providing any evidence that Abraham's bosom was paradise - nothing. I think you know that. The fact the Greeks called it Elysian fields means nothing. Not sure what that has to do with anything. The Greek word used was paradeisos, which other Scripture locates in the 3rd heaven.

What has Hebrews 1:14 to do with this? What does that prove on this matter? Nothing.

You think the thief next to Christ went to heaven the day Christ died then, that both went into heaven that very day.

What you are saying is Christ went back to God in Heaven when He died on the cross.
And what stayed there till the 3rd day after which He returns and is resurrected?
Thus, not descending to the hades place of death or experiencing a full human experience of death.

Sorry, but I will stick with what most Christians have believed from the beginning.

I assume then you also believe the OT saints went to heaven at their deaths.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You think the thief next to Christ went to heaven the day Christ died then, that both went into heaven that very day.

What else does the following mean?

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

What you are saying is Christ went back to God in Heaven when He died on the cross.
And what stayed there till the 3rd day after which He returns and is resurrected?

Yes, that's' what he's saying and is what I believe as well.

Thus, not descending to the hades place of death or experiencing a full human experience of death.

What does "a full human experience of death" mean? He took the spirits of OT believers who were in Abraham's bosom and brought them to paradise (the third heaven).

Sorry, but I will stick with what most Christians have believed from the beginning.

What they believed is not taught in scripture, so who cares if most of them believed that? Most Christians in the U.S. today believe in a pre-trib rapture? Does that make it true?

I assume then you also believe the OT saints went to heaven at their deaths.

No, he is saying they went to Abraham's bosom, which is a separate place than Hades according to Luke 16:19-31, and were taken from there to heaven (the third heaven/paradise).

 

[Scott Downey]

This here is what happened. Christ of course went to heaven and hades so that He might fill all things.

So if you do not think He did that, then you are saying He did not fill all things

And how can a man go to heaven without first the resurrection from the dead?
God raised up Christ from the dead, He was really truly dead.

Christ is the first fruits, and we get to rule with Him in heaven due to His own bodily resurrection from the dead. Otherwise we could not be there with Him. So that guy on the cross going to a heavenly paradise before the resurrection makes no sense.

Which Place Did Jesus Go – Paradise or Heaven? — The Gospel of Christ

Luke 22:42,43 states: "Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Hebrews 9:12,13 states: "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to com

www.thegospelofchrist.com

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This here is what happened. Christ of course went to heaven and hades so that He might fill all things.

So if you do not think He did that, then you are saying He did not fill all things

He went to Abraham's bosom, not Hades/hell. Why would He go to Hades/hell? For what purpose exactly?

And how can a man go to heaven without first the resurrection from the dead?
God raised up Christ from the dead, He was really truly dead.

Who is saying otherwise?

Christ is the first fruits, and we get to rule with Him in heaven due to His own bodily resurrection from the dead. Otherwise we could not be there with Him. So that guy on the cross going to a heavenly paradise before the resurrection makes no sense.

His spirit went there, not his body. Do you not differentiate between the spirit and the body?

 

[Scott Downey]

Ask yourself, when did Christ conquer over all principalities and powers, at His death or His resurrection?
As that will tell you where this 'Paradise' was.

I say He conquered all at His resurrection, not His death.

He even tells us where He was....
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

And compares this to Jonah, who was alive in the great fish, body soul spirit.
Do you guys really think Jonah went to heaven while his body stays in this fish?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Psalm 8:6 is a prophecy. Paul quoted the fulfillment of Psalm 8:6 and applied it to all things having been placed under Jesus's feet.

He didn't assert that the Psalm had been completely fulfilled, as he made it clear that we do not yet observe all things being subjected to him. In this passage, Paul emphasizes an important distinction: while he has been granted authority over all his adversaries, the actual manifestation of that power—demonstrated through the complete subjugation of those enemies—has not yet come to fruition. This indicates that although he holds a position of supreme authority, the full realization of that authority is still in the process of unfolding.

The reason it then says "But now we see not yet all things put under him." in Hebrews 2:8 is that all CURRENT things are under His feet, but there are things that do not yet exist that are not yet under His feet.

Paul's focus in Hebrews chapter 2 is on his own time period. Speaking to his readers, he clarifies that, from his own perspective and time period, "we do not yet see all things subjected to him."

If that was the case, then why did he write about the same thing in present tense in Ephesians 1:19-22? Unless you think that Jesus is not currently "the head over all things to the church"?

In Ephesians 1:22, the verbs are often translated into the past tense in English, which can be misleading. However, a closer examination of the original Greek reveals that these verbs are, in fact, in the aorist tense. Paul intentionally employs the aorist tense to convey a future event, presenting it as though it has already occurred. This stylistic choice is referred to as the "proleptic aorist," a grammatical construct that emphasizes certainty and assures the audience of the inevitability of the event being described. By using this tense, Paul underscores the significance of the event in question and its impact on the readers, effectively affirming that what is yet to come holds as much weight as if it had already transpired.

 

[WPM]

You think the thief next to Christ went to heaven the day Christ died then, that both went into heaven that very day.

What you are saying is Christ went back to God in Heaven when He died on the cross.
And what stayed there till the 3rd day after which He returns and is resurrected?
Thus, not descending to the hades place of death or experiencing a full human experience of death.

Sorry, but I will stick with what most Christians have believed from the beginning.

I assume then you also believe the OT saints went to heaven at their deaths.

Can you read what I write. I said that He had to descend into Abraham's bosom to liberate the dead redeemed. He then took them to heaven. I believe that happened on that first day

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is all private interpretation.

The dead body of Christ was in the grave for three days. But His spirit went immediately back to God in heaven.

That is not correct. Jesus told Mary that he had not yet ascended to his Father. John 20:17

 

[WPM]

That is not correct. Jesus told Mary that he had not yet ascended to his Father. John 20:17

Hello! Physically!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Can you read what I write. I said that He had to descend into Abraham's bosom to liberate the dead redeemed. He then took them to heaven. I believe that happened on that first day

That idea is not found in scripture.

 

[WPM]

That is not correct. Jesus told Mary that he had not yet ascended to his Father. John 20:17

When we die, we do not go physically to be with Him. We go spiritually to be with Him. Our spiritual man ascends to reign with Him in glory. That is what happened to Jesus. We go in His footsteps.

 

[WPM]

That idea is not found in scripture.

It is. Please read above.

 

[CadyandZoe]

When we die, we do not go physically to be with Him. We go spiritually to be with Him. Our spiritual man ascends to reign with Him in glory. That is what happened to Jesus. We go in His footsteps.

We base our knowledge on facts, and the truth is Jesus' claim that he did not ascend to the Father.

Next, Peter's sermon tells us that David did not ascend into heaven, contradicting the idea that believers go to heaven after they die.

Next, we have Paul's word that the dead in Christ will rise at the blowing of the Trumpet, and the command of an archangel.