Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false

[Scott Downey]

When we die, we do not go physically to be with Him. We go spiritually to be with Him. Our spiritual man ascends to reign with Him in glory. That is what happened to Jesus. We go in His footsteps.

Actually this is error!
We do not ascend into Heaven, Christ comes and gets us.

John 14

The Way, the Truth, and the Life​

1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many [a]mansions; if it were not so, [b]I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

I can accept the Christ sends angels to come and get us, but we never go to heaven on our own ascension.
You keep missing this verse

John 3
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He didn't assert that the Psalm had been completely fulfilled, as he made it clear that we do not yet observe all things being subjected to him. In this passage, Paul emphasizes an important distinction: while he has been granted authority over all his adversaries, the actual manifestation of that power—demonstrated through the complete subjugation of those enemies—has not yet come to fruition. This indicates that although he holds a position of supreme authority, the full realization of that authority is still in the process of unfolding.


Paul's focus in Hebrews chapter 2 is on his own time period. Speaking to his readers, he clarifies that, from his own perspective and time period, "we do not yet see all things subjected to him."


In Ephesians 1:22, the verbs are often translated into the past tense in English, which can be misleading. However, a closer examination of the original Greek reveals that these verbs are, in fact, in the aorist tense. Paul intentionally employs the aorist tense to convey a future event, presenting it as though it has already occurred. This stylistic choice is referred to as the "proleptic aorist," a grammatical construct that emphasizes certainty and assures the audience of the inevitability of the event being described. By using this tense, Paul underscores the significance of the event in question and its impact on the readers, effectively affirming that what is yet to come holds as much weight as if it had already transpired.

I stand by what I said and I don't find your arguments to be convincing at all. It's time to just agree to disagree.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually this is error!
We do not ascend into Heaven, Christ comes and gets us.

John 14

The Way, the Truth, and the Life​

1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many [a]mansions; if it were not so, [b]I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

I can accept the Christ sends angels to come and get us, but we never go to heaven on our own ascension.

That passage is talking about His bodily second coming when He will come and receive His church to Himself "in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). That is not about Him coming to gather our soul and spirit when we die.

You keep missing this verse

John 3
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven.

Jesus said this before His death, so He was only saying no one had ascended there up to that point. How does that mean no one's soul and spirit ascended there after He said that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hello! Physically!

Exactly. I'll never understand why some people do not differentiate between the body and the soul (and spirit).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think it happened on the 3rd day when He rose from the dead.
That makes logical sense in the proper order of things.

When did Christ present His blood on the heavenly altar?

I think that happened after he rose from the dead. Recall Christ said he would be in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights.
Why would He lie?

That was only His body, not His spirit! The heart of the earth refers to the grave, not the spiritual realm. The spiritual realm is located apart from the earth.

There's no reason to think that the souls and spirits of dead believers weren't taken to paradise the day Jesus died. When He died, His work was done. He said "It is finished". It was a guarantee that He would rise from the dead because nothing could stop God the Father from raising His Son from the dead. So, it was as if His resurrection already occurred, in a sense (not literally) when He died. So, there was no reason for the souls and spirits of the dead OT saints to have to wait to be taken to paradise at that point.

Why do you not differentiate between the body and the soul and/or spirit?

 

[Scott Downey]

That passage is talking about His bodily second coming when He will come and receive His church to Himself "in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). That is not about Him coming to gather our soul and spirit when we die.


Jesus said this before His death, so He was only saying no one had ascended there up to that point. How does that mean no one's soul and spirit ascended there after He said that?

Your so confidently sure of everything. However your wrong here and about other spiritual things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your so confidently sure of everything.

There's nothing wrong with confidence.

However your wrong here and about other spiritual things.

Prove it then. Why won't you address my arguments? I'm addressing yours.

 

[Scott Downey]

There's nothing wrong with confidence.


Prove it then. Why won't you address my arguments? I'm addressing yours.

There's nothing wrong with confidence.


Prove it then. Why won't you address my arguments? I'm addressing yours.

That's the whole issue. What you so confidently presume is not provable according to the scriptures. But john 14 says what it says. I will beleive that over your unprovable confidence

 

[Scott Downey]

So we just float up into heaven at our deaths. Tell us where scriptures teaches this.

 

[Scott Downey]

I find it so typical that some attack when their own personal interpretations are so obvious and partison.

 

[Scott Downey]

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I

Obviously Jesus comes to us. Not only at his second coming. For where 2 or more gather in his name, he is there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's the whole issue. What you so confidently presume is not provable according to the scriptures. But john 14 says what it says. I will beleive that over your unprovable confidence

We know in the future that Jesus will come and receive us bodily to Himself, right? Why would John 14 not be about that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I find it so typical that some attack when their own personal interpretations are so obvious and partison.

Says the guy who admitted to believing something largely because the majority believes it (Jesus going to Hades when He died). Talk about a partisan interpretation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So we just float up into heaven at our deaths. Tell us where scriptures teaches this.

We're talking about souls and spirits here, not bodies. Why is this so difficult for you to believe? How did Jesus's spirit get to heaven? Did He need someone to bring it there? The fact of the matters is that it doesn't say specifically how one's soul and spirit gets to heaven, so what you believe is not explicitly taught in scripture, either. What difference does this even make how one's soul and spirit gets to heaven?

 

[WPM]

I think it happened on the 3rd day when He rose from the dead.
That makes logical sense in the proper order of things.

When did Christ present His blood on the heavenly altar?

I think that happened after he rose from the dead. Recall Christ said he would be in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights.
Why would He lie?

The Heavenly Sanctuary​

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [f]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

"I think," "I think," "I think."

You are speculating. You want me to align with your speculation. I cannot. I go with Christ's words on the cross, and take them literal. The dead thief in Christ was with Him that day in paradise (the 3rd heaven). There is real hard evidence!

 

[WPM]

We only get to go to heaven and rule that '1000' years based on His resurrection, as Christ was the first resurrection, the first fruits.
So how then could the OT saints in Abraham's bosom be taken into Heaven by Christ on the first day, as in the day of he was crucified, it would have required the 3rd day logically and consistently. I prefer logic and consistency in understanding the scripture.

When does your spirit rise upon death to heaven? Is it upon death or is it when your physical body does at the last trump?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I

Obviously Jesus comes to us. Not only at his second coming. For where 2 or more gather in his name, he is there.

Are you not arguing that John 14:1-3 is about Jesus coming to someone to bring his or her soul and spirit to heaven when they die? Are you using this verse to support that interpretation? If so, this verse you quoted here is not in relation to Jesus coming to us when we die and bringing us to heaven. It's in relation to Him coming to dwell within us by way of the Holy Spirit (see verses 26 and 27 for context).

 

[Scott Downey]

"I think," "I think," "I think."

You are speculating. You want me to align with your speculation. I cannot. I go with Christ's words on the cross, and take them literal. The dead thief in Christ was with Him that day in paradise (the 3rd heaven). There is real hard evidence!

Just another assumption on your part. Unprovable assertion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"I think," "I think," "I think."

You are speculating. You want me to align with your speculation. I cannot. I go with Christ's words on the cross, and take them literal. The dead thief in Christ was with Him that day in paradise (the 3rd heaven). There is real hard evidence!

Agree. Only 3 verses later it shows Jesus committing His spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46). Where is the Father? In heaven (the third heaven, paradise). So, that is where Christ's spirit went when He died and he took the spirit of the thief on the cross and all of the spirits in Abraham's bosom with Him.

 

[Scott Downey]

Are you not arguing that John 14:1-3 is about Jesus coming to someone to bring his or her soul and spirit to heaven when they die? Are you using this verse to support that interpretation? If so, this verse you quoted here is not in relation to Jesus coming to us when we die and bringing us to heaven. It's in relation to Him coming to dwell within us by way of the Holy Spirit (see verses 26 and 27 for context).

It is all of that. You deliberately ignore the part of his going to prepare a place for us. And the many mansions. All that shows us this is a heavenly place created specifically and individually for us. But it is not on me to convince you. Tha is God's job