Who Is The Antichrist? A Biblical Prespective.

[Marty fox]

I want a Calvin or a Henry who agrees with you.

There are people who have written about it in books like Hank Hanagraph but that doesn’t matter because they aren’t Biblical authority just peoples views from history

I learned my view from a Christian Jew who didn’t know Christ till they were much older but they were very we’ll learned Judaism to the point of memorizing the Old Testament they went through the book of Maccabees with me

 

[CTK]

All 4 empires were destroyed by the Rock. This is a depiction of the second coming of Jesus, as are all the subsequent apocalyptic prophecies depictions of history ending at the second coming.
The side by side iron and clay empire is a union of convenience, not natural. They cannot mix. And at times were in conflict. The clay in scripture usually represents the church. Clay as used in pottery is malleable... Workable... As the clay described in Jeremiah which represents God's people. But the clay here used in Daniel is miry clay. Unworkable. Worthless. This describes a church that was once God's people, but had gone into apostasy. This church was once loyal to God, and God used them for His purposes. But they forsook God in favour of a relationship with the kings of the earth, a relationship between church and state that is unnatural... Spiritual adultery. The clay and iron represents three false union of church and state which existed between the Catholic church and Roman secular power in the dark ages, and morphed later into a union whereby the popes took to themselves secular authority and forming a union of church and state within the Vatican itself. How the Rock destroys empires when it strikes the toes is that the final church/state union found in those toes have inherited the philosophies and traditions and practises of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome and incorporated them into their religious practises. This is all very clearly seen in Catholicism today. It is all apostate religion, seeking union with the kings of the earth having forsaken her true King and Bridegroom Jesus, and is committing adultery by doing so. Hence the divorce element inherent in the meaning of apostasy. God hasn't divorced The Catholic church, but the Catholic church through its adulterous relationships with the kings of the earth, has divorced God and annulled the relationship. Prophecy in Daniel and Revelation perfectly describes this scenario.

Part 1

The Dream Sequence

Daniel 2:31–36

31Thou, O king, saw, and behold a great image. This great, whose B was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34Thou saw till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

Verses 31 to 36 in the Book of Daniel reveal a dream depicting a colossal and terrifying statue composed of four distinct parts: a head of gold, arms and chest of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron with its feet made of iron and clay. A stone, cut without human hands, strikes the statue's feet, breaking them apart. All commentators contend the entire statue—gold, silver, bronze, iron, and clay—is crushed and swept away by the wind, leaving no trace. The stone grows into a huge mountain that fills the whole world.

Even if Nebuchadnezzar had remembered his dream, he likely would not have understood its significance, and his wise men probably couldn't have interpreted it either. Daniel tells us twice that Nebuchadnezzar "watched" as the image was revealed, from its head to the stone striking the feet. Each section of the image is presented without emphasis on one part over another. The dream doesn't provide any details or actions beyond the stone striking the feet. At this point, Daniel implies that Nebuchadnezzar didn't need to understand what it meant; he only needed to recognize the vision, as its interpretation would soon be given to him. This dream was predetermined, and it was created by someone much greater than Nebuchadnezzar, giving him a unique glimpse into the future.

This alone should have humbled him and sparked a desire to know more about this God who could see the future. The dream sequence doesn't provide explicit details about the identities of the kingdoms, kings, or powers, nor does it specify the timing or purpose of the image. However, it clearly establishes four distinct sections of the statue, each represented by a different metal and corresponding to a specific body part. This continuity suggests a seamless progression through the four divisions, implying that the future is predetermined and should be observed rather than altered. Like Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, we too face choices in our earthly journey. We should study the finished image, recognizing it as complete and perfect in its design, without attempting to modify or reinterpret its construction.

The prophecies and interpretations in the Book of Daniel occur within these four divisions, making it essential to respect these boundaries. In Chapters 7 and 8, Daniel receives new symbols and images to reveal additional attributes and characteristics within each of the four divisions. These symbols enhance our understanding but must be applied within the framework of the dream sequence.

For centuries, many have interpreted the stone in Daniel 2:34 as an end-time event, assuming that when the stone strikes the feet of the statue, it immediately destroys all four kingdoms at once. However, a closer reading of the passage reveals a far more profound and layered fulfillment—one that began over two thousand years ago with the coming of Jesus Christ.

The verse describes a stone cut without human hands striking only the feet of the image, which consists of iron and clay. Unlike what many assume, this act does not immediately bring about the destruction of the entire statue. Instead, it begins with the breaking apart of the feet—the final division within the fourth kingdom of Rome. This detail is crucial because it suggests a spiritual separation rather than instant obliteration.

When Jesus walked the earth, He often referred to Himself as the stone that was rejected by the builders, a reference to Psalm 118:22, which He quoted in Luke 20:17-18. He described Himself as a stone that would cause people to either be broken upon Him or to be crushed by Him. This imagery perfectly aligns with what happens in Daniel 2:34—the stone’s impact does not bring immediate destruction but instead creates a fundamental division among God's people within the Roman Empire.

 

[CTK]

All 4 empires were destroyed by the Rock. This is a depiction of the second coming of Jesus, as are all the subsequent apocalyptic prophecies depictions of history ending at the second coming.
The side by side iron and clay empire is a union of convenience, not natural. They cannot mix. And at times were in conflict. The clay in scripture usually represents the church. Clay as used in pottery is malleable... Workable... As the clay described in Jeremiah which represents God's people. But the clay here used in Daniel is miry clay. Unworkable. Worthless. This describes a church that was once God's people, but had gone into apostasy. This church was once loyal to God, and God used them for His purposes. But they forsook God in favour of a relationship with the kings of the earth, a relationship between church and state that is unnatural... Spiritual adultery. The clay and iron represents three false union of church and state which existed between the Catholic church and Roman secular power in the dark ages, and morphed later into a union whereby the popes took to themselves secular authority and forming a union of church and state within the Vatican itself. How the Rock destroys empires when it strikes the toes is that the final church/state union found in those toes have inherited the philosophies and traditions and practises of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome and incorporated them into their religious practises. This is all very clearly seen in Catholicism today. It is all apostate religion, seeking union with the kings of the earth having forsaken her true King and Bridegroom Jesus, and is committing adultery by doing so. Hence the divorce element inherent in the meaning of apostasy. God hasn't divorced The Catholic church, but the Catholic church through its adulterous relationships with the kings of the earth, has divorced God and annulled the relationship. Prophecy in Daniel and Revelation perfectly describes this scenario.

Part 2

The iron of the feet represents Rome, but within Rome existed the clay—God’s people, living under Roman rule. At the time of Christ’s coming, His presence caused a deep and lasting division among them. Those who accepted Him as the Messiah became pottery clay, soft and moldable in God’s hands, ready to be sent into the world to proclaim the Good News. But those who rejected Him remained hardened, like ceramic clay, refusing to be shaped by God's truth. This division was most evident in how His own people responded to Him—some embraced Him as the long-awaited Savior, while others called for His crucifixion.

The moment the stone struck the feet was not an event still waiting to happen—it was the cross. The crucifixion of Christ was the dividing point between those who believed and those who rejected Him, separating God's people into two distinct groups. Those who followed Him became the foundation of His church, His kingdom that would spread across the world. The rest, those who refused to recognize Him, remained within their pre-cross faith.

This understanding of Daniel 2:34 is strengthened by the words of Jesus Himself. In Matthew 10:34, He declared, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.” His coming was not about immediately establishing an earthly reign, but about creating a spiritual division, a calling out of those who would follow Him. The striking of the feet represents this separation, not the final destruction of all kingdoms.

The distinction between Daniel 2:34 and Daniel 2:35 is critical. While verse 34 speaks of Christ’s first coming, where He divides the iron and clay, verse 35 describes an event that happens later—when the entire image is finally crushed and swept away like chaff. That event, the complete removal of all earthly rule, belongs to His second coming, not His first. This gap in time, over two thousand years and counting, is often overlooked by those who assume both verses describe a single moment in history.

What Daniel saw in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream was God’s blueprint for history. The four kingdoms—Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome—define the external and internal boundaries through which all prophecy must be understood. No additional nations or empires can be inserted where God has not placed them. This vision is final and complete. Those who try to reshape it to fit their own interpretations add what God has not spoken and remove what He has revealed.

The striking of the feet was a moment of spiritual transformation, not immediate destruction. The Messiah came to separate, to reveal hearts, and to call His people out from the midst of the empire that ruled over them. Those who recognized Him became part of the mountain that would grow and cover the whole earth, while those who rejected Him remained entangled with the crumbling iron of Rome. The stone’s first impact has already occurred—the next time it strikes, it will not be to divide, but to bring an end to all earthly kingdoms and establish God’s eternal reign.

Interpretations of verses 34 and 35 in Nebuchadnezzar's dream vary among scholars and theologians. Most see these verses as representing a single event associated with the return of Jesus. However, there is a separation of over 2000 years between these two events.

The phrase "and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found" in verse 35 also suggests a true end-time event.

In ancient Israel, the barley harvest typically occurred in April and May, followed by the wheat harvest in May and June. During the forty-nine days leading up to Pentecost, Israel experienced a climactic battle between easterly winds from the desert, which were dry, and westerly winds from the sea, which brought moisture, clouds, and rain. By Pentecost, the weather had stabilized, signaling the beginning of the harvest. The wheat was cut with a sickle, bound into sheaves, and transported to the threshing floor. The threshing floor was a flat, clean, hard, and smooth surface, crucial for the separation of the chaff from the grain. A large shovel or wooden fork with bent prongs was used to winnow the grain, allowing the wind to blow away the chaff. This process relied on an extremely hard surface to prevent dirt from mingling with the grain during threshing. The winnowing fork was essential, as it helped release the bulk of grain, straw, and chaff into the wind, which was especially effective in the strong evening breezes common during this season.

 

[CTK]

All 4 empires were destroyed by the Rock. This is a depiction of the second coming of Jesus, as are all the subsequent apocalyptic prophecies depictions of history ending at the second coming.
The side by side iron and clay empire is a union of convenience, not natural. They cannot mix. And at times were in conflict. The clay in scripture usually represents the church. Clay as used in pottery is malleable... Workable... As the clay described in Jeremiah which represents God's people. But the clay here used in Daniel is miry clay. Unworkable. Worthless. This describes a church that was once God's people, but had gone into apostasy. This church was once loyal to God, and God used them for His purposes. But they forsook God in favour of a relationship with the kings of the earth, a relationship between church and state that is unnatural... Spiritual adultery. The clay and iron represents three false union of church and state which existed between the Catholic church and Roman secular power in the dark ages, and morphed later into a union whereby the popes took to themselves secular authority and forming a union of church and state within the Vatican itself. How the Rock destroys empires when it strikes the toes is that the final church/state union found in those toes have inherited the philosophies and traditions and practises of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome and incorporated them into their religious practises. This is all very clearly seen in Catholicism today. It is all apostate religion, seeking union with the kings of the earth having forsaken her true King and Bridegroom Jesus, and is committing adultery by doing so. Hence the divorce element inherent in the meaning of apostasy. God hasn't divorced The Catholic church, but the Catholic church through its adulterous relationships with the kings of the earth, has divorced God and annulled the relationship. Prophecy in Daniel and Revelation perfectly describes this scenario.

Part 3

Thus, the phrase in verse 35 refers to the end-time harvest and does not occur at the same time as the stone striking the feet in verse 34. The event in verse 34 represents the cross and defines whether the verses and their interpretations apply to the three previous kingdoms or the fourth and final kingdom of Rome (pagan or Papal). The four-sectioned image continues, but there is a significant change within the fourth kingdom. Pagan Rome, with legs of iron and feet of iron and clay, in that order, as well as the toes, will exist at the time of the Messiah and after the cross. Later, the fourth kingdom, in the form of Papal Rome, made of partly clay and partly iron, in that order, would continue for another 2000 years or so, both spiritually and physically.

In verse 33, the feet are composed partly of iron and partly of clay, in that order. These two materials, although not properly joined together, are not separate in the image. In verse 34, the stone strikes the feet and breaks them into pieces. There are two important points here: After the stone strikes the image, there are now five separate materials, and the iron and clay are no longer mixed together. The purpose of the stone striking the image's feet was to separate or divide the iron from the clay, allowing God to select the potter’s clay from the common clay (later defined as ceramic clay).

The striking of the feet divides the fourth and final kingdom, not destroy or crush it or the other kingdoms out of existence. Jesus came to divide, not to destroy. The materials—their make-up and order—are different before and after the cross. The verses in the interpretation sequence speak almost exclusively to events after the cross and before His second coming.

Once the iron and clay in the feet are broken apart, God uses those separated materials as He predestined. The stone (Messiah) that strikes the feet completes His mission, fulfilling all His Father’s commands found in Daniel 9:24, and divides the fourth and final kingdom, revealing His plan of salvation for both Jew and Gentile. Verse 34 also represents God’s setting up His kingdom on earth spiritually, not physically.

The final comment of the dream sequence refers to verse 33. Daniel mentions that the feet of the metal-man image are made of partly iron and partly clay, in that order. However, there is no mention of the toes. The toes will be discussed in the interpretation sequence, but they are purposefully left out of the dream sequence description. To Nebuchadnezzar, it may have seemed (purposefully) that the iron and clay had encased or largely covered any sign of individual toes, symbolizing pagan Rome's control over the internal structure and make-up of the feet and toes. Pagan Rome exercised complete control over every aspect of its conquered nations.

The dream sequence did not provide Nebuchadnezzar with details other than identifying four kingdoms, a stone striking the image's feet, and the stone becoming a great mountain. Without Daniel’s interpretation sequence, generating any meaningful interpretations or prophetic messages would be impossible. Daniel's interpretations, found in verses 37-45, require careful placement within the dream sequence. The timing of the stone striking the feet is crucial. Determining when or where the interpretation sequence verses should be placed, either before or after the cross, depends on understanding verses 34 and 35 correctly.

 

[covenantee]

There are people who have written about it in books like Hank Hanagraph but that doesn’t matter because they aren’t Biblical authority just peoples views from history

I learned my view from a Christian Jew who didn’t know Christ till they were much older but they were very we’ll learned Judaism to the point of memorizing the Old Testament they went through the book of Maccabees with me

OK. We've expressed our respective views. Thanks.

 

[Brakelite]

Part 3

Thus, the phrase in verse 35 refers to the end-time harvest and does not occur at the same time as the stone striking the feet in verse 34. The event in verse 34 represents the cross and defines whether the verses and their interpretations apply to the three previous kingdoms or the fourth and final kingdom of Rome (pagan or Papal). The four-sectioned image continues, but there is a significant change within the fourth kingdom. Pagan Rome, with legs of iron and feet of iron and clay, in that order, as well as the toes, will exist at the time of the Messiah and after the cross. Later, the fourth kingdom, in the form of Papal Rome, made of partly clay and partly iron, in that order, would continue for another 2000 years or so, both spiritually and physically.

In verse 33, the feet are composed partly of iron and partly of clay, in that order. These two materials, although not properly joined together, are not separate in the image. In verse 34, the stone strikes the feet and breaks them into pieces. There are two important points here: After the stone strikes the image, there are now five separate materials, and the iron and clay are no longer mixed together. The purpose of the stone striking the image's feet was to separate or divide the iron from the clay, allowing God to select the potter’s clay from the common clay (later defined as ceramic clay).

The striking of the feet divides the fourth and final kingdom, not destroy or crush it or the other kingdoms out of existence. Jesus came to divide, not to destroy. The materials—their make-up and order—are different before and after the cross. The verses in the interpretation sequence speak almost exclusively to events after the cross and before His second coming.

Once the iron and clay in the feet are broken apart, God uses those separated materials as He predestined. The stone (Messiah) that strikes the feet completes His mission, fulfilling all His Father’s commands found in Daniel 9:24, and divides the fourth and final kingdom, revealing His plan of salvation for both Jew and Gentile. Verse 34 also represents God’s setting up His kingdom on earth spiritually, not physically.

The final comment of the dream sequence refers to verse 33. Daniel mentions that the feet of the metal-man image are made of partly iron and partly clay, in that order. However, there is no mention of the toes. The toes will be discussed in the interpretation sequence, but they are purposefully left out of the dream sequence description. To Nebuchadnezzar, it may have seemed (purposefully) that the iron and clay had encased or largely covered any sign of individual toes, symbolizing pagan Rome's control over the internal structure and make-up of the feet and toes. Pagan Rome exercised complete control over every aspect of its conquered nations.

The dream sequence did not provide Nebuchadnezzar with details other than identifying four kingdoms, a stone striking the image's feet, and the stone becoming a great mountain. Without Daniel’s interpretation sequence, generating any meaningful interpretations or prophetic messages would be impossible. Daniel's interpretations, found in verses 37-45, require careful placement within the dream sequence. The timing of the stone striking the feet is crucial. Determining when or where the interpretation sequence verses should be placed, either before or after the cross, depends on understanding verses 34 and 35 correctly.

Interesting. Something to think about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The bible does contradict itself at times. In this situation I believe OT prophecy was scrapped in favor of new prophecy, that is similar but has some differences.

Total nonsense. This is ridiculous. The Bible never contradicts itself. You are basically saying the Bible is not trustworthy by saying this. Unbelievable.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Thanks for your response. I would ask you to take a look at my recent response # 99 below and just give it some consideration. Thanks

I read #99 and you did much allegorizing.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Daniel 7:24

24The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, and shall subdue three kings.

Daniel 7:24a marks an important shift in the understanding of the ten horns. Up until this point, Daniel has seen these horns growing from the fourth beast, but now, Gabriel clarifies their identity: they are ten kings. This is the first time these ten horns are explicitly called kings, and this new designation raises a critical question—why are they now being recognized as kings, and what does this reveal about God’s plan?

To fully grasp their significance, we must return to Chapter 2 and Nebuchadnezzar’s metal-man image, where God first described the fourth kingdom—Pagan Rome—as a kingdom of iron. This kingdom, unlike its predecessors, would not simply rise and fall. Instead, it would undergo a unique transformation. The iron feet of Rome, which represented its rule over both the Jewish nation and the Gentile world, contained ten toes and clay—symbolizing both Roman dominion and the presence of God’s people under that rule.

In Daniel 2:34, the Stone (Messiah) strikes the feet of the image, breaking apart the iron and the clay – within the feet. However, it does not directly strike the toes. This distinction is crucial.

The clay represented God’s people, who had been under Roman rule.

The Stone’s impact symbolized the crucifixion of Jesus, which would bring about a great separation within the Jewish people.

Those who accepted Jesus as their Messiah were identified as “pottery clay”, moldable in the hands of the Potter (Jeremiah 18:6).

Those who rejected Him were identified as “ceramic clay”, hardened and unable to be shaped.

After the crucifixion, those who accepted the Messiah would go out into the world, preaching the Good News. The Ten Commandments, once entrusted to the Jewish nation, would now be proclaimed to the Gentiles—just as the ten toes were now symbolically free from Roman captivity.

When we move from Daniel 2 to Daniel 7, God reveals something new about these ten toes—they do not remain toes, but instead become ten horns (Daniel 7:7-8). This transformation is not accidental. In Chapter 2, the ten toes symbolized God’s law within the Jewish nation. But now, in Chapter 7, these same ten elements are described as “horns” or “powers”, indicating authority. And now, in Daniel 7:24, Gabriel further clarifies their status:

“The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom.”​

The Ten Commandments, which were God’s moral law, have transitioned once again to the top of the 4th beast, and would be redefined by the little horn. They are no longer just a guiding force—they have been elevated to the status of kings. Like kings, they must be obeyed—but not according to God’s original intent. Instead, the little horn (Papal Rome) would ensure that the commandments were worshipped in the way he determined.

When Pagan Rome fell in 476 AD, the Christian Church, which had already gained immense power, stepped into the void. The Bishop of Rome—soon to be the Pope—claimed authority over both religious and secular matters, thus marking the full transition from Pagan Rome to Papal Rome.

As Papal Rome grew in influence, it did not stand alone. Alongside it, the Ten Commandments themselves were altered, reshaped to fit the doctrines of the Church. The original moral law—once a guiding light for salvation—was now transformed into a system of enforced worship dictated by religious authority.

Later in verse 25, Daniel will reveal the final transformation of these ten toes, horns, and kings. Eventually, God will reclaim them, and they will become the ten saints of the Most High. But for now, in Daniel 7:24a, these ten horns have become kings under Papal Rome’s rule, enforcing laws that have been twisted from their original divine purpose. This transformation is significant because it reveals that Papal Rome’s power was not just political—it was spiritual.

Just as a king demands obedience, so too did the little horn enforce its own version of God’s commandments upon the world. Over time, the little horn would:

Replace biblical truth with human traditions.

Elevate the power of the Church above the Word of God.

Persecute those who refused to conform.

Thus, the ten horns becoming ten kings symbolizes how the teachings of God were distorted under the influence of Papal Rome. Rather than being God’s moral law, they were now used as instruments of control—and those who challenged the little horn’s authority would suffer the consequences.

Although Daniel would not have the ability to understand the meaning of this symbolism, this was still a deeply troubling revelation. This is why Daniel 7:24a marks a turning point—it confirms that the fourth beast’s final phase would be a kingdom unlike any before it, one that would redefine worship, authority, and obedience in ways never before seen in history

All this and you are incorrect.

The ten kings are part of the fourth beast! NOt saints .

The fourth kingdom which is an undefined creature goes through several iterations. We look at Daniels statue and vision of the beast to get the full picture.

these kingdoms stay in power until Jesus returns so the time line is Babylon until the physical return of Jesus. So that fourth beast is still in power today.

1. Rome. Rome took over from Greece (brass and the leopard) and began rule c. 146B.C. Rome is the united stage.

2,. Next comes the divided stage (the two legs) c. 395A.D. when the empire split in two and Rome and Constantinople became the two capitols. this is the stage of the fourth beast that is still in power today.

In the east it stayed in Constantinople till c. 1453 when the Byzantines conquered and the powers moved to Russia. They cam to power and called their ruler Czars ( a derivation of Cesar) It is still there today.

In the West After Rome fell it move to the Holy Roman empire of the Germanic Nation, then the Frecnh nation, then spain and has settled in the British and American republics.

3. then will come the one world govt. (The beast in Dan. 7 that rules the whole earth)

4. From this will rise the ten kings to rule the world. (ten toes and ten horns)

5. The final iteration of the fourth beast will be the 11th horn who is commonly known as the antichrist.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Scripture clearly shows that antichrist is a spirit inside many people

There are only four verses in the entire bible that uses the word antichrist

1 John 2:18
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

There is the spirit of antichrist as is shown above.
there are many antichrists as shown above.
And then there is THE Antichrist also shown above in the passages you cite.

It is not either/or but all/and.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is the spirit of antichrist as is shown above.
there are many antichrists as shown above.
And then there is THE Antichrist also shown above in the passages you cite.

It is not either/or but all/and.

There is no individual Antichrist referenced in those passages. What was heard before that time was that the spirit of antichrist was coming and John said it was already in the world at that time as evidenced by the many antichrists that were already in the world at that time.

 

[covenantee]

Yes and the book of Daniel shows them come and reign of the Jews

Babylon
The Medes
Persia
and then Daniel is told in chapter 10 that the king of Greece will come

The error arises in attempting to identify the Medes and Persians as separate empires. In historical reality, they united under Cyrus about 549 BC as the single empire of Medo-Persia. It was this united single empire, identified in Daniel 2:39 as "another kingdom inferior to thee", that conquered Babylon ten years later, about 539 BC.

Chronologically, Medo-Persia was the second empire, followed by the Grecian (third) and Roman (fourth) empires.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There is no individual Antichrist referenced in those passages. What was heard before that time was that the spirit of antichrist was coming and John said it was already in the world at that time as evidenced by the many antichrists that were already in the world at that time.

Well we will let time prove one or both of us wrong.

 

[Marty fox]

The error arises in attempting to identify the Medes and Persians as separate empires. In historical reality, they united under Cyrus about 549 BC as the single empire of Medo-Persia. It was this united single empire, identified in Daniel 2:39 as "another kingdom inferior to thee", that conquered Babylon ten years later, about 539 BC.

Chronologically, Medo-Persia was the second empire, followed by the Grecian (third) and Roman (fourth) empires.

Yes thanks I am aware of that.

My point is that there were 4 empires mentioned that ruled starting with Babylon and the book of Daniel shows and mentions them and talks about their kings. Each empire was consumed by the proceeding empire.

I believe that the book of Daniel is complete in itself and shows and names the rulers of the first three empires ruling over the Jews in captivity and then in chapter 10 it mentions that the king of Greece (not named) will come.

The events of the little horn are described in the books of Maccabees that occurred between the time of Daniel and the first coming of Jesus even showing the fulfillment of the little horn desecrating the temple the abomination that causes desolation. If you were a Jew living in the times of the Maccabees who would you of thought Daniel was talking about?

If a future beast desecrates a future temple in Jerusalem it won't be Gods temple

The reason for the 70 weeks are shown in the first part of Daniel chapter 7

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well we will let time prove one or both of us wrong.

I'm already proven right by the fact that no individual Antichrist is referenced in those passages. John makes it clear that anyone (not just one person) who denies Christ is an antichrist and there were already many antichrists in the world at that time and the spirit of antichrist was already in the world at that time which was reflected in those many antichrists. He said absolutely nothing about any individual Antichrist.

 

[covenantee]

Yes thanks I am aware of that.

My point is that there were 4 empires mentioned that ruled starting with Babylon and the book of Daniel shows and mentions them and talks about their kings. Each empire was consumed by the proceeding empire.

I believe that the book of Daniel is complete in itself and shows and names the rulers of the first three empires ruling over the Jews in captivity and then in chapter 10 it mentions that the king of Greece (not named) will come.

The events of the little horn are described in the books of Maccabees that occurred between the time of Daniel and the first coming of Jesus even showing the fulfillment of the little horn desecrating the temple the abomination that causes desolation. If you were a Jew living in the times of the Maccabees who would you of thought Daniel was talking about?

If a future beast desecrates a future temple in Jerusalem it won't be Gods temple

The reason for the 70 weeks are shown in the first part of Daniel chapter 7

Luke 21:20 identifies the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 9:27 as the Roman armies, not Antiochus.

There is 3-way corroboration across these verses.

All three refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

No Maccabean Jew would have interpreted Daniel 9:27 correctly, because it was looking ahead to Christ at Calvary confirming His New Covenant in 30 AD, followed by the ensuing destruction of the old covenant economy in 70 AD.

It was not looking at Antiochus.

Antiochus is prophesied elsewhere in Daniel, but not in Daniel 9:27.

 

[Marty fox]

Luke 21:20 identifies the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 9:27 as the Roman armies, not Antiochus.

There is 3-way corroboration across these verses.

All three refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Yes Luke & Matthew are about 70AD but not Daniel 7 or 11. Did Antiochus not desecrate the temple?

Jesus referred to Daniel in Matthew stating that what happened in the past would happen again in the future except this time there would be no Judas the hammer Maccabees to save them. Remember Antiochus desecrated the temple after Daniel prophesied it.

Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.

 

[covenantee]

Yes Luke & Matthew are about 70AD but not Daniel 7 or 11. Did Antiochus not desecrate the temple?

Jesus referred to Daniel in Matthew stating that what happened in the past would happen again in the future except this time there would be no Judas the hammer Maccabees to save them. Remember Antiochus desecrated the temple after Daniel prophesied it.

Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.

Luke and Matthew are about Daniel 9:27. The armies to which they refer are Roman. Antiochus was not a Roman.

The 70 weeks started in 457 BC.

 

[Marty fox]

Luke and Matthew are about Daniel 9:27. The armies to which they refer are Roman. Antiochus was not a Roman.

The 70 weeks started in 457 BC.

Yes I already said that Luke and Matthew are about 70AD which was Rome and I never said that Antiochus was Roman he wasn't

We differ of when the 70 weeks started

 

[CTK]

All this and you are incorrect.

The ten kings are part of the fourth beast! NOt saints .

The fourth kingdom which is an undefined creature goes through several iterations. We look at Daniels statue and vision of the beast to get the full picture.

these kingdoms stay in power until Jesus returns so the time line is Babylon until the physical return of Jesus. So that fourth beast is still in power today.

1. Rome. Rome took over from Greece (brass and the leopard) and began rule c. 146B.C. Rome is the united stage.

2,. Next comes the divided stage (the two legs) c. 395A.D. when the empire split in two and Rome and Constantinople became the two capitols. this is the stage of the fourth beast that is still in power today.

In the east it stayed in Constantinople till c. 1453 when the Byzantines conquered and the powers moved to Russia. They cam to power and called their ruler Czars ( a derivation of Cesar) It is still there today.

In the West After Rome fell it move to the Holy Roman empire of the Germanic Nation, then the Frecnh nation, then spain and has settled in the British and American republics.

3. then will come the one world govt. (The beast in Dan. 7 that rules the whole earth)

4. From this will rise the ten kings to rule the world. (ten toes and ten horns)

5. The final iteration of the fourth beast will be the 11th horn who is commonly known as the antichrist.

Part 1

Yes I already said that Luke and Matthew are about 70AD which was Rome and I never said that Antiochus was Roman he wasn't

We differ of when the 70 weeks started

Marty, can you share your basis for the start of the 70 weeks?