I agree; you've said that Antiochus was not Roman.
And you've said that Antiochus was the little horn.
But the little horn was Roman. It came up from among ten Roman kingdoms. Daniel 7:7,8
Who Is The Antichrist? A Biblical Prespective.
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And you've said that Antiochus was the little horn.
But the little horn was Roman. It came up from among ten Roman kingdoms. Daniel 7:7,8
Thats the point, saying that the little horn is from Rome is yours and many others view and not mine or a fact
I have the unanimous scholarship of virtually every recognized historical orthodox Christian exegete affirming me.
There are at least five of them.
One or two could be wrong.
Five are not wrong.
That's good enough for me.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Let me in detail give my reasons why I believe Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 7.
a. Antiochus does not rise after 10 kings. He was the 8th king in the Syrian line of Seleucid kings. Besides, the prophecy calls for 10 kingdoms to exist contemporaneously, not successively.
b. Antiochus belonged to the 3rd empire (Greece) in actual historical sequence from Daniel's time.
c. He was not 'diverse' from any other king.
d. He did not 'pluck up' 3 other kings.
e. He was not 'stouter' than his fellows. His father was known as Antiochus the Great, not Epiphanes.
f. He did not prevail until the end of time, the judgment.
g. The kingdom following was Rome, not the kingdom of the saints.
Reasons why Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8.
a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part of one of the four.
b. He did not wax exceeding great. In fact his father was greater, but neither was as great as even Babylon or Media Persia, certainly no greater than Alexander. Yet the prophecy demands that the little horn be greater than any empire before it.
c. He does not fit the time periods. According to Maccabees 1:54,59, and 4:52 Antiochus suppressed the sacrifices exactly 3 years. This fits neither the 1260 days , (times time and half a time,) nor the 2300 days (evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14). These figures do not compliment one another NOR do they meet the reign of Antiochus.
d. The 2300 days is prophetic. Using the day/year principle established elsewhere as being the standard and norm for interpreting prophetic time periods, it is a literal 2300 years.
Therefore,
And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
can only refer to the empire of Rome, and thus is the Daniel 8 parallel to not just the 4th beast of Daniel 7...
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
... but also the iron legs of the statue of Daniel 2. See how each prophecy repeats and enlarges upon the preceding prophecy?
The dragon beast represents the Roman empire (168 B. C. - 476 A. D.). This empire came to be known as the “iron monarchy of Rome” (Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 4, p. 161). The ten horns represent the ten kingdoms into which the Roman Empire was divided when it fell apart. These ten kingdoms, according to Edward
Gibbon, were: The Alemanni, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Visigoths, the Saxons, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards and the Heruli (see, M. H. Brown, The Sure Word of Prophecy, pp. 54, 55).
a. Antiochus does not rise after 10 kings. He was the 8th king in the Syrian line of Seleucid kings. Besides, the prophecy calls for 10 kingdoms to exist contemporaneously, not successively.
b. Antiochus belonged to the 3rd empire (Greece) in actual historical sequence from Daniel's time.
c. He was not 'diverse' from any other king.
d. He did not 'pluck up' 3 other kings.
e. He was not 'stouter' than his fellows. His father was known as Antiochus the Great, not Epiphanes.
f. He did not prevail until the end of time, the judgment.
g. The kingdom following was Rome, not the kingdom of the saints.
Reasons why Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8.
a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part of one of the four.
b. He did not wax exceeding great. In fact his father was greater, but neither was as great as even Babylon or Media Persia, certainly no greater than Alexander. Yet the prophecy demands that the little horn be greater than any empire before it.
c. He does not fit the time periods. According to Maccabees 1:54,59, and 4:52 Antiochus suppressed the sacrifices exactly 3 years. This fits neither the 1260 days , (times time and half a time,) nor the 2300 days (evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14). These figures do not compliment one another NOR do they meet the reign of Antiochus.
d. The 2300 days is prophetic. Using the day/year principle established elsewhere as being the standard and norm for interpreting prophetic time periods, it is a literal 2300 years.
Therefore,
And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
can only refer to the empire of Rome, and thus is the Daniel 8 parallel to not just the 4th beast of Daniel 7...
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
... but also the iron legs of the statue of Daniel 2. See how each prophecy repeats and enlarges upon the preceding prophecy?
The dragon beast represents the Roman empire (168 B. C. - 476 A. D.). This empire came to be known as the “iron monarchy of Rome” (Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 4, p. 161). The ten horns represent the ten kingdoms into which the Roman Empire was divided when it fell apart. These ten kingdoms, according to Edward
Gibbon, were: The Alemanni, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Visigoths, the Saxons, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards and the Heruli (see, M. H. Brown, The Sure Word of Prophecy, pp. 54, 55).
And others don't but that doesn't matter people can be wrong and not know all facts. I go by Daniel's prophecy and the events recorded in the book of Maccabees and history and how the reason for the 70 weeks was given in Daniels prayer in chapter 7.
If we don't agree its okay its not accentual doctrine
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
3 next inline kings were uprooted in different ways for Antiochus to take the throne
This is from a post I did on a different site
This is a different than most views of Daniels 70 weeks. Most people put Daniels 70th week in the future and call it the time of Jacobs trouble or the great chain but the time table below shows a different interpretation which matches history. Remember there are no coincidences in the bible.
The vision of the angle Gabriel and the prophecy of the 70 weeks were an answer to Daniels prayer in Daniel 9:4-19. Daniels is praying to God and asking for mercy as he knew that the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied that the captivity would last for 70 years. The law of Moses states that they need to repent and turn back to God but the 70 years was almost up and the Jews were still not repenting. We see in the verses below that Daniel is pleading to God for mercy.
Daniel 9:17-19
17 “Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”
The prophecy given by the angel Gabriel
Daniel 9:24-27
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
The 70 years would become 70 weeks of foreign control. The Jews would go back and rebuild Jerusalem but not as free people but under foreign control.
The 70 weeks are 490 years of prophecy.
The command by the angel Gabriel is to know and understand the prophecy. The decree (the word to go and rebuild Jerusalem) would trigger the understanding of the time line of the vision. Thus the decree of king Cyrus is the key to know and understand the 70 weeks. The decree of king Cyrus gives us a concrete date and point in time of the 70 weeks.
Below are the time lines of each set of weeks
605 B.C. The start of the 70 weeks Daniel and the Jews are taken into captivity. (time goes backwards from the time of Daniel vision)
587 B.C. Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon the start of the 7 weeks (runs parallel to some of the 62 weeks)
170/1 B.C. Onias 3rd is murdered (cut off and has nothing) the second anointed one the last of the Zadokite priesthood which was the start of the 70th week.
538 B.C. King Cyrus issues a decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem and Joshua (the first anointed one who was to come) goes back to rebuild Jerusalem. This is the end of the 7 weeks which was 49 years after 587 B.C. when Jerusalem was destroyed.
167 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th desecrates the temple ½ way through the 70th week. The abomination that caused desolation.
164/3 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th dies and the temple sacrifice is reestablished the end of the 70th week. (the end is poured out on him)
War continued during and until the end of the 70th week
The purposes of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24 were fulfilled by the Jews who remained loyal to God and resisted apostasy.
605 B.C.-171 B.C. 62 weeks or 434 years
587 B.C.-538 B.C. 7 weeks or 49 years
170/1 B.C.-164/3 B.C. 70th week or 7 years
Some versions of the bible use the word Messiah instead of the anointed one but that was a mistake and not the original meaning.
Below are three main points to show that Jesus wasn't any part of the prophecy of the 70 weeks
1-Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.
2-It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?
3-Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.
This time line takes away the possibility of a future 70th week or even a future seven year tribulation.
Jesus and Mark claimed it.
Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
There is only one time that Jesus and Mark could possibly be referring to as fulfilled.
Daniel's 70th week.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Do you not understand that the 7 weeks came before the 62 weeks? That is what is indicated in Daniel 7:25. Which means what it is actually saying in verse 26 is that the anointed one would be cut off after the 69th week (7 + 62). And that was Jesus. He was cut off during the 70th week when he confirmed the new covenant and made the old covenant and its animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete.
Yet the 70 weeks isn't mentioned in that at all my point as my point is that the 70 weeks aren't about the time of Jesus.
My other point is that Mathew (who wrote his gospel to the Jews) would of stated that Jesus was fulfilling the 70 weeks as he repeatley states any time Jesus fulfilled any of the OT prophecies
Once again it says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years or 7 weeks after he is cut off?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
The problem here is that you apparently have the 7 weeks occurring after the 62 weeks, but that is not the case. The 7 weeks comes first, followed by the 62 weeks.
Daniel 7:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
You see how the 7 weeks is mentioned first before the 62 weeks here? That's because the 7 weeks comes before the 62 weeks. So, obviously, if he is cut off after the 62 weeks, then he is also cut off after the 7 weeks and therefore is cut off after the first 69 weeks end.
Marty, you have an interpretation all to yourself here. That raises a red flag. Do you think you are the only one in the world who interprets the prophecy correctly?
No I don't if you ready my dates you will see that I have the 7 weeks running Parrell to some of the 62 weeks and the Messiah wasn't in the original text it was anointed one and there were many anointed ones.
No this isn't my idea I learned it from Jewish Christians who understand the OT especially the book of Daniel very well as that was all they believed before they recognized Jesus as their God and Messiah through the book of Daniel. It is a learned Jewish perspective who know way more than we do about Jewish history.
Understanding the reason that the 70 weeks were given as I posted is the key to understanding the 70 weeks
The first advent the ushering in of the new covenant which I don't believe that the 70 weeks are about
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Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Is there reconciliation for iniquity under the New Covenant?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What basis is there for having the 7 weeks run parallel to some of the 62 weeks? There is no indication of that in the text whatsoever. Instead it has them separated with the 7 weeks coming first followed by the 62 weeks. How does your view have 70 weeks total if you don't have the 7 and 62 weeks separate, adding up to 69 weeks, with the 70th week being referenced in Daniel 9:27?
It's clearly not just about any anointed one, but THE Anointed One, Jesus Christ.
Read your own words here. You are saying that you learned it from what Jewish people believed even before they became Christians. How can you trust that?
I'm sorry, but you don't seem to understand it at all. It's all about Jesus and what He was going to do for the people of Israel (and for the whole world as it turned out) and it's unbelievably sad that you don't even recognize that. Just read Daniel 9:24. How can you think that anyone but Jesus could accomplish what is written there?
Sure there is but the OT saints are saved in the same way as we are today they are saved by grace through faith and they proved it by resisting apostasy.
If you look at verse 24 you will see that transgressions, sins, visions and prophecy still happened after the first advent so not everything ended during the 70 weeks
The reason for the vision given to Daniel is below
The vision of the angle Gabriel and the prophecy of the 70 weeks were an answer to Daniels prayer in Daniel 9:4-19. Daniels is praying to God and asking for mercy as he knew that the prophet Jeremiah had prophesied that the captivity would last for 70 years. The law of Moses states that they need to repent and turn back to God but the 70 years was almost up and the Jews were still not repenting. We see in the verses below that Daniel is pleading to God for mercy.
Daniel 9:17-19
17 “Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill— 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:
Bro, you recently did an excellent exegesis on Messiah's fulfillment of all of Daniel 9:24. Could you repost that for us? Thanks.
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