Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved

[Ronald Nolette]

(1) believing is a work, not a work of merit, but an obedient work that sinners must CONDITIONALLY do in order to be saved and become a Christian. Believing is also something a Christian must continue to do in order to remain saved. This is why the verb "believe" is present tense in many many places showing that believing is not just something done for an instant then done but is something that must conditionally be ongoing, sustained for life.


(2) I agree that good works will not save a sinner for obedience to God's will is what the sinner must do to be saved and again as just seen. believing is an obedient work as you point out from Jn 6.

(3) Epehsians was written to those who were Christians, those who were CONDITIONALLY "in Christ", Eph 1:1,3,4. It is this group called Christian who is in Christ that is sealed and as long as one faithfully remains in this group, one remains of the sealed. Yet if one becomes unfaithful and falls from this group, the group itself remains sealed yet the individual that falls away is no longer of the sealed. The Bible does not teach the idea of individuals being UNconditionally sealed apart from the group Christian.

a) approximately 25-30 years later, this "sealed" group in Ephesus left Christ, were fallen and told to repent and do the first works else the church (candlestick) at Ephesus would be removed by God, be no longer recognized by God as His, Revelation 2:1-5. This would not be possible if OSAS/POTS were true.

b) The idea of being sealed is also found in the OT. The same Greek root word for "sealed" that Paul used in his Ephesian epistle is found in Romans 4:11:
"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:"
Circumcision was a seal put upon the Jew under the OT law but this seal was only good as long as the Jew was obedient:
"For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision." Romans 2:25. Not being obedient meant this seal of circumcision became unsealed, that is, the Jew became as uncircumcised as the Gentile whom the Jews hated. And the Jews did not remain obedient, hence God cast them off, Romans 11:20-23. But they could be graffed in AGAIN if they would repent and turn from unbelief back to obeying God. The Jews were "sealed" but it meant nothing, they became as uncircumcised when they turned from God in unbelief/disobedience. Those Ephesians did not remain obedient hence found themselves fallen having left Christ, thus they were commanded to repent or else have their candlestick removed.

Ernest I will make this plain. You are not trusting Jesus to save you, but you perfuming a certain level of good works to remain saved- you even said so.

You do not believe you are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourself, but it is a gift from God and not of works lest you should boast!

To you Jesus is just the admission ticket, but you must perform X amount of good works to stay saved.

Paul called this another gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

When kept in context and with the rest of the NT counsel concerning salvation, this is not about salvation, but a person who having heard and understood the gospel, and rejected it, they are worse off than before.

I'm happy to go through it again:

2 Peter 2:20-21
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

In chapter two of his letter, Peter is addressing believers of false teachers that can introduce them to false heresies and many will be maligned and brought to destruction denying the teachings of the Master (Jesus).

2 Peter 2:1-2
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;

The above ALONE shows that a believer can be DECEIVED by false teachings....
bringing DESTRUCTION upon themselves.

Verses 4 to 16 go on to tell of these deceivers and how evil and corrupt they are.

Now on to verses 17 to 21
17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.

The above evil men teach incorrectly and live a life of sin...they say a lot to the believers - but they are STILL DANGEROUS....
because a believer can fall for their error.

Persons that have recently come to be a believer are very susceptible to these men/teachings of heresy.
They promise freedom to believers, but are themselves slaves to corruption.

20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

These current teachers of evil ESCAPED from the defilements of the world by the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Savior....
KNOWLEDGE.....= EXPERIENCE

KNOWLEDGE, in this case means:
Epignoses --- which means:

Cognate: 1922 epígnōsis (from 1909 /epí, "on, fitting" which intensifies 1108 /gnṓsis, "knowledge gained through first-hand relationship") – properly, "contact-knowledge" that is appropriate ("apt, fitting") to first-hand, experiential knowing. This is defined by the individual context. See 1921 (epignōskō).


These evil heretical persons KNEW JESUS the same way YOU AND I DO...

But they became AGAIN entangled in the world.
This means they were:
in the world
saved from the world
AGAIN in the world.


21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

A Dog RETURNS....
What do you think returns means?

They were IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD
but THEY RETURNED TO THE WORLD.


Do yourself a favor and study the above.
There is no running away from it.

Yes a believer can have his love gorw cold. But once one is a child of God they are either an obedient or disobedient child, Just like our children, no matter what they do, they are our children.

Remember Jesus paid for all your sins at the cross. Not just ones that you committed before you got saved. Sin is not the issue.

We don't know if Paul worte Hebrews. and Hebrews isa not written to believers but to Jews.

Sorry you tire. But as John said they left because they were not of us. Not that they were once us and now aren't.

If you believed that then you would accept eternal security, for as Jesus said " I give them eternal life and they shall never perish" and also " I will never leave thee nor forsake thee"

So with these absolute words concerning our security with our relationship with Jesus, these verses you list have to do with something else. And that is our fellowship with god that can be broken.

Dear sir,
If your RELATIONSHIP with God is broken....
You're like the heretical believers and you are no longer in the care of Jesus our Savior.

Romans 11:20-22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

If there is no relationship with God....
It means you have lost faith in Him.
It means severity for you because you fell.

God's kindness IF you continue in His kindness OTHERWISE you also will be CUT OFF.

If you're out of relationship with God
are you still in His kindness?

I wouldn't take the chance.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ernest I will make this plain. You are not trusting Jesus to save you, but you perfuming a certain level of good works to remain saved- you even said so.

You do not believe you are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourself, but it is a gift from God and not of works lest you should boast!

To you Jesus is just the admission ticket, but you must perform X amount of good works to stay saved.

Paul called this another gospel.

Could you please explain to @Ernest T. Bass , and myself,
which verse you use to post the above.

I cannot find any.
Thanks.

 

[Runningman]

Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved

The regenerate can become degenerate and the born again can die again.

2 Peter 2
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well if you read the NT you would know of the varied crowns believers can earn for faithful service and belief.
teaching us how to get saved was secondary to actually becoming the sacrifice that saves us!

No Ronald...
I'd appreciate it if you would post some verses that speak of the fact that Jesus came to teach us about crowns...
or about crowns in general.

You see, I'm not follow our Lord and SAVIOR to get some crown or other...
I'm following Him to be saved here on earth and also in the hereafter.

I'd appreciate seeing those verses you speak of.

Can you show me this verse that adds "for as long as we remain in christ"?
How long if a believer departs or whatever you call it, does it take for them to lose their being a child of god, losing their sonship, God revoking their perfection, God unborn agains them, God revokes them being justified, glorified and seated in heavenly places. How long before god plucks that person out of His hand and Jesus does the same? They are no longer seated in heavenly places? they are no longer dead and trheir life hidden in christ in God?

1. God does not pluck you out of His hand. Why is this sooooo difficult to understand?
YOU walk out of His hand.

2. How long does it take?
If YOU walk out of God's hand, your salvation is lost immediately.

Were you lost BEFORE you knew Him?
Then you become lost again AFTER you leave Him.

You need verses that state that we are to remain/abide in Christ?
We are to abide, live in, and remain in Christ or we are lost....

1 John 2:28
28And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.

If we are not to shrink from Jesus when He appears....we must abide in Him.


John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

IF we keep His commandments THEN we will abide in His love.
If we do NOT keep His commandments THEN we are NOT abiding in His love.


John 8:31
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,

IF we abide in God's word.....
otherwise we are NOT His disciples.


Those are the words of John and two verses of JESUS....
Not mine.
I'd pay attention to them.

Please as you are so sure this can happen according ot the Bible, then you must have verses that shows when all these terrible things take placew?

also if a person loses their salvation, can they get it back again?

Of course you can get it back.
Did the father take back the Prodigal Son?
Did John not teach that we can confess our sins?

Why would God not take you back?
God desires that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

The regenerate can become degenerate and the born again can die again.

2 Peter 2
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Some on this thread cannot understand simple English.
But I'm giving it my all !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest I will make this plain. You are not trusting Jesus to save you, but you perfuming a certain level of good works to remain saved- you even said so.

You do not believe you are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourself, but it is a gift from God and not of works lest you should boast!

To you Jesus is just the admission ticket, but you must perform X amount of good works to stay saved.

Paul called this another gospel.

Jesus does save therefore it would be up to Christ, NOT MAN, to determine what is to be required of Christians. Christ requires that the Christian, His followers do good works:

Matt 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Tim 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:14
And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Heb 10:24
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

-------------------

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Workmanship means something that has been made, Christianity is what God has made and God created Christians for the purpose of doing good works. Good works therefore are not an option for Christians.

God hath before ordained....God prearranged the moral actions, these good works Christians are to walk in, to live their life doing. Therefore good works must be a necessary outgrowth of the Chistians faith, John 15:8; Rom 7:4. Lack of good works means the Christian will be unfruitful and the unfruitful are cut off and thrown into the fire, Jn 15:4ff, not to be unfruitful, 2 Pet 1:8; Titus 3:14.

-----------------
Titus 1:15-16
To the pure all things are pure: but to them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
They profess that they know God; but by their works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Those that are unfit for doing any good work are those who are defiled, who are unbelievers, who know not God and deny Him by their disobedient works. It's Christians who are fit to do good works, who know God, that are pure and are believers in God.

--------------

Good works found within in the BIble Christians are to be engaged in;

Edification, Rom 14:17-19 Christians are to edify one another with words of encouragement and hope, to teach one another of love, unity, to build up each other's faith and to warn one another of the judgment to come therefore the need to live faithful unto death.

Benevolence, James 1:27; Gal 6:10 Christians are to help those in need, to bear one another's burden.

Evangelism, Mk 16:15; Matt 28:19-20 the main function of Christians is to do the work of taking the gospel to a lost world.

Christ Himself was involved in these good works during His earthly ministry and Chrisians (followers of Christ) must also be engaged in these good works also, else they cannot be Christ-like in failing to following Christ's example, they deny God, they are defiled, disobedient and unto every good work, reprobate.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

2 Peter 2:1-2
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;

The above ALONE shows that a believer can be DECEIVED by false teachings....
bringing DESTRUCTION upon themselves.

False teachers are unsaved.

Once again prove destruction means loss of salvation.

I see three passages where God says about people who seemed to be christina:

Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version

​

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 13:24-31

King James Version

​

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

These all describe people who were never saved.

But of the saved I see Jesus saying this:

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. If you are human, you cannot pluck yourself out of Jesus hand!

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus will not cast you out!

Romans 14:
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Jesus makes His children stand!

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

When you accepted teh blood of Jesus for your atonement- you were perfected forever! Now He is making you hol;y.

A Dog RETURNS....
What do you think returns means?

They were IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD
but THEY RETURNED TO THE WORLD.


Do yourself a favor and study the above.
There is no running away from it.

Sorry I have studied it for years! It is not a saved person but an unsaved person who heard the word and brought to salvation, but returned back. that is just the way it is. "Having known the way" doesn't = being saved.

Could you please explain to @Ernest T. Bass , and myself,
which verse you use to post the above.

I cannot find any.
Thanks.

Sure. Teh bible says this: I will just post from John 3:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Sorry one from romans and Ephesians as well as well:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The bible explicitly says it is faith alone in the atoning work of Jesus that saves apart from any works. You and Ernest add works as a prerequisite to stay saved (which means to be saved ultimately:

and Paul said this about anyone brining another gospel:

Galatians 1:6-9

King James Version

​

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

that is why I wrote that to Ernest.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The regenerate can become degenerate and the born again can die again.

2 Peter 2
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Read my responses to gods grace and Ernest why Gods word says you are wrong.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No Ronald...
I'd appreciate it if you would post some verses that speak of the fact that Jesus came to teach us about crowns...
or about crowns in general.

Well if you believe Paul was inspired to write His letters by god, then Jesus through Paul and Peter spoke of 6 crowns available. Go to biblegateway, download the app and search for crowns in the NT , they are all right there in the Inspired Word of God.

1. God does not pluck you out of His hand. Why is this sooooo difficult to understand?
YOU walk out of His hand.

2. How long does it take?
If YOU walk out of God's hand, your salvation is lost immediately.

That is what you say, but jesus said no one (including you ) can pluck you out of His hand.

1 John 2:28
28And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.

If we are not to shrink from Jesus when He appears....we must abide in Him.

That doesn't mean lost.

John 8:31
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,

IF we abide in God's word.....
otherwise we are NOT His disciples.

Disciples are believers but not all believers are disciples. Even a cursory reading of the NT shows that.

Of course you can get it back.
Did the father take back the Prodigal Son?
Did John not teach that we can confess our sins?

Why would God not take you back?
God desires that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So according ot your theology, a person can be born again, then unborn again, then born again, again, then unbornagain, again, then born again, again, then unborn again, again.

That sounds more like reincarnation that salvation.

But if you wish to misinterpret verses here is one to wake you up:

Hebrews 6

King James Version

​

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Whom should I believe??????

The word of Gods grace or the Word of the Living God????? what a dilemna!

 

[GodsGrace]

Well if you believe Paul was inspired to write His letters by god, then Jesus through Paul and Peter spoke of 6 crowns available. Go to biblegateway, download the app and search for crowns in the NT , they are all right there in the Inspired Word of God.

That is what you say, but jesus said no one (including you ) can pluck you out of His hand.

That doesn't mean lost.

Disciples are believers but not all believers are disciples. Even a cursory reading of the NT shows that.


So according ot your theology, a person can be born again, then unborn again, then born again, again, then unbornagain, again, then born again, again, then unborn again, again.

That sounds more like reincarnation that salvation.

But if you wish to misinterpret verses here is one to wake you up:

Hebrews 6​

​

King James Version​

​

​

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Whom should I believe??????

The word of Gods grace or the Word of the Living God????? what a dilemna!

I'm sorry Ronald but you're going around in circles.
You're also not open to a discussion but just keep repeating the same stuff over and over.

I've given you the PROPER and correct interpretation of the verses I've posted.

If you care to believe yourself or some man instead of God's word...
so be it.

But as to good deeds, I leave you with the following:
you can either believe scripture, or not...

Matthew 6:4
But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

​

Galatians 6:9
9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.
(that pesky IF word is all over the NT about the possibility of losing our salvation).

James 2:26
26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Colossians 3:17
17And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

James 4:17
17So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father

Hebrews 10:24
24And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,


There are plenty more RN.
You should read the NT very carefully.
And stop teaching false doctrine....
souls are at stake.

And destruction means you are DESTROYED.
A saved person is not a DESTROYED person.
Jesus came to keep you from being DESTROYED.

Changing words,
Twisting scripture
and not understanding plain simple English....
will get you nowhere.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Everyone who has received God's GIFT of Salvation, is born again, and you can't stop being born again.

Also, God makes no contract, that says...>>"if you are a good little boy and girl, after i save you, then you can stay saved".

So, that is your theology, and its a broken faith, you have, that denies Salvation is God's Gift, as you are trying to earn it by self righteousness after you have received it, as a GIFT....
God does not require "obedience" to save a sinner, and He does not keep them saved by Obedience.

See The Cross of Christ for exactly WHY God saves, and HOW God saves, and WHY this Keeps you saved, forever.

The Same JESUS who saves the SINNER, is why the Christian, stays saved.

One more...

"The Gifts and callings of God, are without REPENTANCE"...

This means, He will never take it away, remove it, or deny it, based on His own word.

So, Salvation, is "the GIFT of Salvation", and God will never take it back... or take it away..... = "without repentance".. "Gifts".. and Salvation is a "GIFT"...

That means you can't undo it, and He never will.

Welcome to : Salvation.

Its time you started to understand it, isn't it @BarneyFife ?

---the disobedient have not been born again therefore lost and will remain lost unless/until they do the will of the Father, Mt 7:21 cf Jn 3:5

--sinners are not saved by grace, it is Christians who are saved by grace for it is Christians who have complied to the will of God while sinners have not.

--God never said nor promised that salvation is UNconditional therefore God cannot 'take back' what He never promised.

You cite Rom 11:29 when the context of Romans 11 is that the Jews, who were God's chosen people, were being cast off due to unbelief.....so much for OSAS. The Gentiles were graffed in but were warned "Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." So the Gentiles could be cast away and be lost too if they fall into unbelief as the Jews "otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."...so much for OSAS. Even though the Jew was cast off, all hope for salvation was not gone for them for "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." The Jews went from being God's chosen, to being cast off, to being able to be graffed back in AGAIN. The Gentiles were graffed in but could be cast off also as the Jew if they fall into unbelief as the Jew...so much for OSAS.

--nothing anywhere says gifts MUST be given UNconditionally. God did not owe Namaan the free gift of healing so it was by grace Namaan could receive healing of his disease but that grace came with the condition he dip in the Jordan river 7 times. His obedience in dipping EARNED him NOTHING, his obedience did not mean God owed him anything.

--Please read Lk 17:7-10 on a lesson given about obedience and see if after one obeys God, he still unprofitable.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

John 10:27-28
27 - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Verse 27 must be quoted with v28 for v27 tells us who the pronouns "them" and "they" in v28 refer to.

"Them" and "they" refer to Christ's sheep and Christ's sheep are those who CONDITIONALLY both hear and follow Christ. Therefore to be of the "they" and "them" of v28 means one must CONDITIONALLY be a sheep and being a sheep requires one to CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ. Also, both verbs hear and follow being in the present tense denote an action that is ongoing and sustained not something done once and done.

Therefore as long as the sheep CONDITIONALLY CONTINUES to hear and follow Christ, they shall never perish, neither be plucked out of God's hand. Sheep hear and follow by their own volition therefore if one chooses to quit hearing and following, then he is no longer a sheep therefore no longer one of the "they" and "them" of v28.


Jn 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

As long as one has an ongoing sustained (present tense) hearing and believing he hath everlasting life yet if one quits hearing and believing he will no longer possess the promise of eternal life (1 Jn 2:25). The present tense is not the friend of OSASers.

 

[Behold]

---the disobedient have not been born again

There is not a Christian who has not had a moment or 2 of carnal behavior, since they were born again.

Paul tells us not to "use our Liberty (in Christ) for an occasion to the flesh"... so, obviously we can.

That verse means......"Now that you are not under the Law, and Jesus has resolved your sin issue forever, dont now use your "made righteous" state of Eternal Life, to go and enjoy some carnality."

I recall that many Christians, come home from work, turn on Netflix, and watch a lot of programs that they should not be watching, night after night...., and that is not "being obedient" to the Faith.....that is "im enjoying some Carnal time".

There use to be a TV Cable series on, for 7 yrs....= .'"Game of Thrones"".. and that program, was weekly rape, incest, & murder, and that was the Show just getting started..... AND, millions of Christians worldwide, LOVED THAT Program for 7 yrs of their "Christian life".

They were not "fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit", when they were watching "Game of Thrones", for 7 yrs..

Or, you can now turn to the Epistle to the Corinthians, and find a young born again Christian, who is fornicating with His Dad's new wife.
So, was He "being obedient" everytime he "made love" with "step-mother"?
Thats a "no".

So, He was not lost, He was not cast out of heaven, he isn't going to Hell.
Paul sent Him out of the Church to "get it together" and eventually took Him back into the congregation.
And here is the part you missed also, @Ernest T. Bass ..... Its this......>Paul never told Him to confess the sin."
And take note that in 13 Epistle that Paul wrote, He never once confessed a sin.... not once.

And you dont know Why...
And that is why you have no idea about eternal security, that is Eternal Life in Christ, and Thats a fact., and you'll prove it again, as you rant more about how you are trying to keep yourself saved by obedience..., instead of Trusting in Christ to keep you saved, which is actually REAL FAITH in Christ... @Ernest T. Bass .

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

There is not a Christian who has not had a moment or 2 of carnal behavior, since they were born again.

Paul tells us not to "use our Liberty (in Christ) for an occasion to the flesh"...

This means......"Now that you are not under the Law, and Jesus has resolved your sin issue forever, dont now use your "made righteous" state of Eternal Life, to go and enjoy some carnality."

I recall that many Christians, come home from work, turn on Netflix, and watch a lot of programs that they should not be watching, night after night...., and that is not "being obedient" to the Faith.....that is "im enjoying some Carnal time".

There use to be a TV Cable series on, for 7 yrs....= .'"Game of Thrones"".. and that program, was weekly rape, incest, & murder, and that was the Show just getting started..... AND, millions of Christians worldwide, LOVED THAT Program for 7 yrs of their "Christian life".

They were not "fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit", when they were watching "Game of Thrones", for 7 yrs..

Or, you can now turn to the Epistle to the Corinthians, and find a young born again Christian, who is fornicating with His Dad's new wife.
So, was He "being obedient" everytime he "made love" with "step-mother"?
Thats a "no".

So, He was not lost, He was not cast out of heaven, he isn't going to Hell.
Paul sent Him out of the Church to "get it together" and eventually took Him back into the congregation.
And here is the part you missed also, @Ernest T. Bass ..... Its this......>Paul never told Him to confess the sin."
And take note that in 13 Epistle that Paul wrote, He never once confessed a sin.... not once.

And you dont know Why...
And that is why you have no idea about eternal security, that is Eternal Life in Christ, and Thats a fact., and you'll prove it again, as you rant more about how you are trying to keep yourself saved by obedience..., instead of Trusting in Christ to keep you saved, which is actually REAL FAITH in Christ... @Ernest T. Bass .

Christians do sin but Christians repent of their sins. Rom 6, Christians are those who have died to sin and are saved by grace. Because a Christian is saved by grace does not give a Christian a license to sin for the Christian must obey God. Sinning is going against what God said therefore the solution to sinning is obedience. Hence Paul speaks of "obedience UNTO righteousness".

Therefore salvation is not by grace alone but a combination of God's grace and the Christian's obedience for it is those who obey that receive grace.

-------

In 1 Corinthian epistle, those Corinthians were engaged in various sins including one in incest.

Paul said to those Corinthians:
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Note that Paul did NOT say they were blameless at the present time he was writing them for they were not blameless, but they were full of blame and sin as Paul describes. But if they were to be found blameless in the FUTURE at judgment day (day of the Lord) then they must repent NOW of the sin and blame there were currently engaged in.

The BIble does NOT teach the Christian can live his life in sin and blame yet somehow be unconditionally found blameless in the day of the Lord...this idea makes no sense and is unbiblical.

And from 2 Cor 7 we see those Corinthians did repent of their sin.....

2 Cor 7:8ff
"For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter."

"what clearing of yourselves" they were eager to clear themselves of the sin in which they were engaged. They went from apathy of their sin to taking account of their sin.

"what indignation" they were angry, disgusted with themselves for allowing this sin to go on as they did.

"what fear" they were overcome with fear at their sin, overcome with the fear of God for their sin, fear of Paul for their sin (1 Cor 4:21)

"to be clear in this matter" by complying to Paul's directives they cleared themselves of this sinful matter by repenting. They had been vindicated of their previous indifference toward this sin of incest.

There is no living in sin as incest and yet still be saved anyway. Fornicators all will be lost, no exceptions Gal 5:19-21. This individual "hath" his father's wife therefore was already lost and the only way to salvation is through repentance...which happened 2 Cor 2:5-11.

The impenitent will be lost (Rom 2:3-5) (Lk 13:3). Those Corinthians repented.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is not a Christian who has not had a moment or 2 of carnal behavior, since they were born again.

Paul tells us not to "use our Liberty (in Christ) for an occasion to the flesh"... so, obviously we can.

That verse means......"Now that you are not under the Law, and Jesus has resolved your sin issue forever, dont now use your "made righteous" state of Eternal Life, to go and enjoy some carnality."

I'm pretty shocked Behold.
I read through this post and can't believe what you've stated.
I pretty much have stopped posting to you because you're so entrenched in your
belief system that you don't even hear what YOU SAY anymore.

So let's go through it....

I recall that many Christians, come home from work, turn on Netflix, and watch a lot of programs that they should not be watching, night after night...., and that is not "being obedient" to the Faith.....that is "im enjoying some Carnal time".

There use to be a TV Cable series on, for 7 yrs....= .'"Game of Thrones"".. and that program, was weekly rape, incest, & murder, and that was the Show just getting started..... AND, millions of Christians worldwide, LOVED THAT Program for 7 yrs of their "Christian life".

They were not "fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit", when they were watching "Game of Thrones", for 7 yrs..

So what do you believe?
Were the persons above living as disciples of Christ?
You call them Christians?
Are they?
Maybe this is why some members, like @Taken , for example, feel the need to add additional words after the designation CHRISTIAN.....because, apparently, this word means nothing at this point in time.

IF they were not fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit....
WHO were they fellowshipping with?

There are only 2 choices --- not 3.

You're either following God
or you're following satan.

Romans 6:16
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Or, you can now turn to the Epistle to the Corinthians, and find a young born again Christian, who is fornicating with His Dad's new wife.
So, was He "being obedient" everytime he "made love" with "step-mother"?
Thats a "no".

So, He was not lost, He was not cast out of heaven, he isn't going to Hell.
Paul sent Him out of the Church to "get it together" and eventually took Him back into the congregation.

How do you know if the sinner was going to hell or not?
Where does the NT state that one could live a life of sin and STILL GO TO HEAVEN?
Could you provide some verses please.

If you can't even enter a CHURCH....
HOW are you going to enter into HEAVEN??

Revelation 21:27 states that NOTHING UNCLEAN will enter into heaven.

You're like those persons that state that someone is lost, as if THEY are God.
YOU instead, state that a person can sin all they want to and STILL go to heaven.

WHERE in the NT is that taught?
And I'd like some scripture please.

YOUR teachings are poison to the soul.

James 3:1
1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

And here is the part you missed also, @Ernest T. Bass ..... Its this......>Paul never told Him to confess the sin."
And take note that in 13 Epistle that Paul wrote, He never once confessed a sin.... not once.

And you dont know Why...
And that is why you have no idea about eternal security, that is Eternal Life in Christ, and Thats a fact., and you'll prove it again, as you rant more about how you are trying to keep yourself saved by obedience..., instead of Trusting in Christ to keep you saved, which is actually REAL FAITH in Christ... @Ernest T. Bass .

Jesus did not come to earth to teach what YOU are teaching.
He came to teach behavior worthy of the Kingdom of God.
To set up God's Kingdom beginning here on earth.
To change HOW men live and HOW they TREAT each other.

And to think that there are some who cannot even believe that some "Christians" preach what you preach.
You sit comfortably believing Jesus will save you not matter what...
but you err.
And those that listen to you are as blind as you are...
The blind leading the blind.


@Eternally Grateful

 

[Taken]

Maybe this is why some members, like @Taken , for example, feel the need to add additional words after the designation CHRISTIAN.....because, apparently, this word means nothing at this point in time.

What do you call a person who attends a Christian Church?

 

[GodsGrace]

What do you call a person who attends a Christian Church?

Right.
But Christian means LITTLE CHRIST.

Whether one attends a Christian church or not is irrelevant.

I cannot call myself a Christian unless I'm a disciple of Jesus....
following in His teachings to the best of my ability and learning from Him.

Which is what a disciple is.

I agree with you.
The term Christian has been watered down and has no more meaning.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm sorry Ronald but you're going around in circles.
You're also not open to a discussion but just keep repeating the same stuff over and over.

I've given you the PROPER and correct interpretation of the verses I've posted.

If you care to believe yourself or some man instead of God's word...
so be it.

But as to good deeds, I leave you with the following:
you can either believe scripture, or not...

Really?

Well I guess we will see who is preaching the right gospel nd who is preaching another gospel then.

Have the last word if you wish.

Just a serious question. How do you know you have thye proper and correct interpretation in spite of linguistic and cultural experts as well as belieiving scholars disagreeing with you?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Right.
But Christian means LITTLE CHRIST.

No it means a follower of Christ or the party of Christ!

Whether one attends a Christian church or not is irrelevant.

This is very wrong.

Paul wrote nearly all his letters to local churches.

Hebrews commands us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together but do it all the more as we see the day approaching!

Do you belong to a local believing assembly and sit under the teaching of the gift ministry of a pastor/teacher?