Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
But yet you forget what the work we as NT believers are required to obey!
John 6:28-29
King James Version
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
From John 3:
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 10:9-15
King James Version
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Good works acceptable to God come from being made a new creature in Christ! They do not save (Eph2:8-10) , they do not maintain or keep us saved. They are a result of being given ETERNAL Life (not temporary eternal life) and are proof we are saved! They are a natural by product of one being saved.
Could you please tell me which of the following sentences or words I misunderstand?
2 Peter 2:20-21
. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
Seemed to be saved?
What does the word AGAIN mean to you?
Please explain what I misunderstood about 2 Peter 2:20-21
The NT addresses those that are not saved to allow them to become saved.
The NT addresses those that are saved so that they do NOT FALL AWAY from the faith.
Revelation 2:4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
As is plain to see:
1. It is possible to abandon the love we had at first.
2. Our thoughts can be led astray from devotion to Christ.
3. Paul tells his BROTHERS that they can fall away from the living God.
Please explain your understanding of the above instead of playing verse ping pong.
Do you realize that the NT is a complete thought and it DOES NOT contradict itself.
It's calvinist theology that causes conflicts to arise in the NT.
I tire of replying to this.
Please study up on the WHY John said the above.
A person cannot FALL AWAY from nothing....
If he falls away it's from SOMETHING....
and, as above verses plainly state, that something is FAITH.
We can fall away from the faith.
What does the above man to you?
God planted good seed.
Satan planted bad seed.
At harvest time God will determine the good seed and the bad seed.
Jesus also spoke of seeds.
Luke 8:13
. 13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Some BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and then falls away.
This is Jesus' teaching.
You should keep away from the teachings of men.
WHERE in Matthew 7 does it state anything even close to what you've stated.
1. WHO will enter into the Kingdom of God?
2. WHO will Jesus state He never knew?
Please show how your understanding is correct.
Read it carefully and you'll find the following answers:
1. Those who DO THE WILL of the Father will enter into His Kingdom.
2. Those who WORK INIQUITY will not be known by Jesus.
It states NOTHING of looking or acting Christian.
It states NOTHING about being saved or unsaved.
It states NOTHING about eternal life.
Please explain.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Notice.
this says they escaped by Knowledge of Him. Not by being saved of him, Having knowledge and recieving that knowledge in faith is not the same thing
I agree with this passage, if I had knowledge of how to be saved (Paul told Timothy he had this knowledge as a child because the cross ever happened I would assume) yet in the end, did not ACT on that knowledge in faith and receive the fruit of it.,
Then it will be worse for me, because I will have an eternity knowing I had the truth in my hands, and rejected it.
Where are these crowns?
Did Jesus come to earth to teach us how to get crowns or how to get saved?
We must always obey.
Agreed.
And so we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because Paul himself was aware that even HE could forfeit his salvation:
1 Corinthians 9:27
but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.
As to your other verses, yes, we will be sanctified and the work God began will be completed...
for as long as we remain in Christ.
1 John 3:24
Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
If we abide in Christ, we will keep His commandments.
IF we do NOT abide in Christ we cannot keep His commandments.
Thanks for posting this.
Amen to that!
God indeed does work in us....
IF we allow Him to.
Do you believe in free will?
That's not what the NT teaches:
Paul taught:
Romans 2:5-8
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
God will render to each person according to his DEEDS.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Jesus on The Cross, is always a Biblical Basis.
So, i showed you The Lord, so that you could understand that He didnt teach Theology from The Cross.
The Law can't save you, the commandments can't save you, and your self righteousness that is your self effort can't save you.
Why?
Because : Only JESUS Saves.
Salvation is redemption from all your sin, becaus you the sinner, need to be saved, which is to be forgiven.
You can't do that, you can earn that, ... and you can't work for it.
No verse in a bible says that Christians are to work out their salvation by continued obedience.
Salvation is a GIFT.. and you dont work for a GIFT.
You're making up verses, or you are cutting and pasting some Heretics Teaching, is more then likely the problem you have.
Salvation, is JESUS.
A.) Jesus is Salvation.
You don't "work that out", you only receive HIM by Faith.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
(1) believing is a work, not a work of merit, but an obedient work that sinners must CONDITIONALLY do in order to be saved and become a Christian. Believing is also something a Christian must continue to do in order to remain saved. This is why the verb "believe" is present tense in many many places showing that believing is not just something done for an instant then done but is something that must conditionally be ongoing, sustained for life.
(2) I agree that good works will not save a sinner for obedience to God's will is what the sinner must do to be saved and again as just seen. believing is an obedient work as you point out from Jn 6.
(3) Epehsians was written to those who were Christians, those who were CONDITIONALLY "in Christ", Eph 1:1,3,4. It is this group called Christian who is in Christ that is sealed and as long as one faithfully remains in this group, one remains of the sealed. Yet if one becomes unfaithful and falls from this group, the group itself remains sealed yet the individual that falls away is no longer of the sealed. The Bible does not teach the idea of individuals being UNconditionally sealed apart from the group Christian.
a) approximately 25-30 years later, this "sealed" group in Ephesus left Christ, were fallen and told to repent and do the first works else the church (candlestick) at Ephesus would be removed by God, be no longer recognized by God as His, Revelation 2:1-5. This would not be possible if OSAS/POTS were true.
b) The idea of being sealed is also found in the OT. The same Greek root word for "sealed" that Paul used in his Ephesian epistle is found in Romans 4:11:
"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:"
Circumcision was a seal put upon the Jew under the OT law but this seal was only good as long as the Jew was obedient:
"For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision." Romans 2:25. Not being obedient meant this seal of circumcision became unsealed, that is, the Jew became as uncircumcised as the Gentile whom the Jews hated. And the Jews did not remain obedient, hence God cast them off, Romans 11:20-23. But they could be graffed in AGAIN if they would repent and turn from unbelief back to obeying God. The Jews were "sealed" but it meant nothing, they became as uncircumcised when they turned from God in unbelief/disobedience. Those Ephesians did not remain obedient hence found themselves fallen having left Christ, thus they were commanded to repent or else have their candlestick removed.
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Jesus does save but He only saves those who obey Him, Heb 5:9.....Jesus said why call ye Me Lord Lord and DO NOT the things which I say, Lk 6:46. Keeping the OT law cannot save, works of merit cannot save but obedience to Christ is what saves.
Your argument is false for no one has argued that salvation can be earned.
What I have said and what the Bible teaches is that obedience to God's will saves and the BIble does teach that, Heb 5:9. No verse teaches the disobedient, the unrighteous are saved, Nowhere does the BIble teach obedience is a work of merit.
Paul did not tell the Philippians to work FOR your salvation but told them to work OUT their salvation which they were doing as seen by their having always OBEYED. As Christ was obedient (Phil 2:8) man is to also be obedient.
--Phil 2 Paul told them to work out your salvation.
--HEB 5:9 Jesus saves those who obey Him, no verse says Jesus saves the disobedient.
--No verse teaches the idea that sinners are saved by grace.
Rom 6:16 there are only two eternal destinies, salvation or condemnation and Paul lays them out here in v16.
Each person is serving one of two masters, one is either:
1) serving sin unto death - condemnation
2) serving obedience unto righteousness - salvation
The man made idea of faith onlyism rejects serving obedience unto righteousness leaving that false teaching only one other option to serve.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Listen..
No one who is SAVED, was "Obeying Jesus", before He saved them...
So, to teach that "obeying Jesus", is required to stay saved, when you were not obeying Jesus your entire life as a sinner, and He saved you in that state........in the first place..
"while we were YET SINNERS".....We are saved by God, through Christ..
Do you understand?
"Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS"........not those who OBEY, by trying to be good and keep commandments and any other type of self righteousness self effort.
I dont think you can understand.... and ive explained why....., but that's ok, as others will read what im showing you, and they will see it, and that will protect their faith, from people like you who do not understand Salvation, IS a "GIFT" from God...@BarneyFife
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that OBEY HIM, Heb 5:9. Faith onlyism cannot change the plain teaching of the Bible.
No verse teaches that Christ saves the ungodly disobedient/unrighteousness for they are the ones that will be lost. As long as one lives in ungodly rebellion, in disobedience to Christ one is lost and will remain lost.
You made the incredible, unbiblical statement that "Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS"........not those who OBEY,.."
Are you serving sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness? Rom 6
what verse says Jesus is the Author of salvation unto all them that live in disobedience to Him?
Behold
Well-Known Member
Before you trusted in Christ, you spent how many years, not obeying God, while enjoying your hourly sinning.?????
20, 30, 40 yrs? of sinning, never obeying God at all.
You forgot?
And you came to Jesus, JUST LIKE THAT,.. a dirty rotten sin loving hedonist, .... and now that God accepted you like that,= ONLY based on Jesus's Sacrifice on The Cross for you........ you now want to blow yourself up with stinking pride and take full credit for keeping yourself saved, when you could not save yourself to begin with... @Ernest T. Bass .
See yourself yet?
God does.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Everyone who lives in disobedient rebellion to God is lost and remains lost unless/until they have an obedient faith in God then they can be saved. I was lost until I obeyed the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8). Those who "obey not" the Son shall not see life (Jn 3:36), those in flaming fire will be the ones who 'obeyed not" the gospel of Christ. Therefore the most basic of simple logic and understanding shows those that live in disobedience are lost, will not see life, be in flaming fire therefore the obedient are the ones saved, the ones who shall see life, the ones not in flaming fire.
Coming to Jesus means believing what Jesus said in repenting, (Lk 13:3) confessing (Mt 10:32-33) and being baptized (Mk 16:16) to be saved. WHy call ye Me Lord Lord and do not the things which I say (Lk 6:46)....this means DOING what Jesus said proves belief...not doing what Jesus said proves UNbelief.
People do come to Christ in their sin stained garments but obedience to Christ is how those garments are cleaned. Disobedience only leaves one lost in his sins..........example.... those whom Peter preached to in Acts 2 were lost in their sins and asked what they MUST DO. God thru Peter by inspiration did NOT say "do nothing" but God COMMANDED them to repent and be baptized in order to have their sins remitted. They were lost and remained lost UNTIL they FIRST obeyed God's command THEN they were saved. Are you to suggest they could have completely ignored God's command, flat out reject God's commands, live in disobedience to God's command to repent and be baptized but God would go ahead and save them anyway? If so, then it was pointless, senseless to give commands in the first place if man can just disregard them and still be saved.
Who's in control in how man will be saved? God? Man? Obviously God and God gives commands to be obeyed to be saved, not give commands to be ignored and disobeyed by man.
Rom 6:17-18 note the order of events:
1) ye were the servants of sin
2) ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then made free from sin
4) ye became the servants of righteousness.
Obedience (2) comes BEFORE (3) justification. As long as one CONTINUES to live in disobedience to God's will (will not obey that form of doctrine) then one CONTINUES to be a servant of sin. It takes obedience for one to become a servant of righteousness. It's not possible for one to be a servant of righteousness without ever first obeying God....IMPOSSIBLE!!
Do you serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness? There are no other options.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Everyone who has received God's GIFT of Salvation, is born again, and you can't stop being born again.
Also, God makes no contract, that says...>>"if you are a good little boy and girl, after i save you, then you can stay saved".
So, that is your theology, and its a broken faith, you have, that denies Salvation is God's Gift, as you are trying to earn it by self righteousness after you have received it, as a GIFT....
God does not require "obedience" to save a sinner, and He does not keep them saved by Obedience.
See The Cross of Christ for exactly WHY God saves, and HOW God saves, and WHY this Keeps you saved, forever.
The Same JESUS who saves the SINNER, is why the Christian, stays saved.
One more...
"The Gifts and callings of God, are without REPENTANCE"...
This means, He will never take it away, remove it, or deny it, based on His own word.
So, Salvation, is "the GIFT of Salvation", and God will never take it back... or take it away..... = "without repentance".. "Gifts".. and Salvation is a "GIFT"...
That means you can't undo it, and He never will.
Welcome to : Salvation.
Its time you started to understand it, isn't it @BarneyFife ?
Fair enough EG.
Except that the whole NT does not agree....
Look at this:
1 Peter 2:25
25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
Peter was teaching all in Asia Minor:
1. It is possible to STRAY.
2. We can RETURN to the shepherd and GUARDIAN OF OUR SOULS.
IF we stray, we must RETURN.
If we RETURN to something, it means we left it and then returned to it.
Peter advises, again, that our behavior is all-important:
1 Peter 2:11-12a
11Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.
12Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles,
We're told to keep our behavior excellent.
Jesus also spoke to our behavior.
OUR behavior, which WE must control or it would not be necessary to make
all these exhortations.
Exhortations are not necessary when it's GOD doing all the work.
God will help us, as the NT teaches that the Holy Spirit will indeed help us....
thus He is known as The Helper.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
We do not lose salvation because we stray, The prodigal son strayed, but he never stopped being the son.. What he lost was the ability to recieve his father love and reward,
Your right, if we want to recieve reward and be blessed again we must return. But that will not save us again, we never stopped being Gods child. We were bought with a price God is not just going to let that God. As they say, Blood is thicker than money. And we have Jesus blood which purchased us
Yes, He also told you to work out your salvation with fear and trembling as we are lights in the world. what happens when we do things that people see? Our testimony is destroyed, our work is destroyed, our fruit (that we made) is destroyed,
It has nothign to do wiht keeping salvation. We are still Gods children.
lol. Yes, Sanctification causes our cooperation. But if your not justified, you will never be justified, You must be born again, New birth is eternal. And it is not conditional
christian growth on the other hand is conditional.. Not everyone will be like paul. Sadly many may be like the corinthian church was. babes in christ, unable to eat meat Of the word. Still stuck with a lack of knowledge, Still struggling with sexual sin, Allowing sexual sin in their midst, and still producing some fruit, but I would say very little.
Yet they were still saved, babes in christ as they may, Some never grow up. Yet they are still in christ..
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
When kept in context and with the rest of the NT counsel concerning salvation, this is not about salvation, but a person who having heard and understood the gospel, and rejected it, they are worse off than before.
Yes a believer can have his love gorw cold. But once one is a child of God they are either an obedient or disobedient child, Just like our children, no matter what they do, they are our children.
Remember Jesus paid for all your sins at the cross. Not just ones that you committed before you got saved. Sin is not the issue.
We don't know if Paul worte Hebrews. and Hebrews isa not written to believers but to Jews.
Sorry you tire. But as John said they left because they were not of us. Not that they were once us and now aren't.
If you believed that then you would accept eternal security, for as Jesus said " I give them eternal life and they shall never perish" and also " I will never leave thee nor forsake thee"
So with these absolute words concerning our security with our relationship with Jesus, these verses you list have to do with something else. And that is our fellowship with god that can be broken.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well if you read the NT you would know of the varied crowns believers can earn for faithful service and belief.
teaching us how to get saved was secondary to actually becoming the sacrifice that saves us!
Can you show me this verse that adds "for as long as we remain in christ"?
How long if a believer departs or whatever you call it, does it take for them to lose their being a child of god, losing their sonship, God revoking their perfection, God unborn agains them, God revokes them being justified, glorified and seated in heavenly places. How long before god plucks that person out of His hand and Jesus does the same? They are no longer seated in heavenly places? they are no longer dead and trheir life hidden in christ in God?
Please as you are so sure this can happen according ot the Bible, then you must have verses that shows when all these terrible things take placew?
also if a person loses their salvation, can they get it back again?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
To a measure.
In th e unsaved- No as isa written they cannot please God
In the believer yes we can choose to obey or disobey God.
Absolutely true! but you do not realize that the believer goes through the bema seat judgment while the unbeliever goes through the great white throne judgment.
A person does not go to hell because they are a sinner. A person goes to hell because they have rejected the death and resurrection of jesus as the full payment of their sin.
A bewliever has his works judged that were done in HIs name whether they were gold...... or wood............ Not the sins that were committed after we were saved. Jesus already removed them from us.
I am going to say something you may find offensive- You do not believe Jesus is your Savior, but only a partial Savior for you. You hold to a variation of the following concept:
Jesus death and Resurrection were kind of like a ticket for you to get into the kingdom. but as you write, if you want to stay in the kingdom, you have to perform X amount of good works (as opposed to sinning) to stay in the kingdom. YOu believe in Salvation by grace through faith and works. That is the exact opposite of what Paul declared in Eph 2:8.
Being saved produces good works. We are given a new nature, a new mind, a new destination and a new heart! No saint will be perfect, and some may even know seasons of backsliding, but once you are a child, you stay of child of God. You may be an obedient or disobedient child.
We don't kill our kids or remove their DNA that relates them to us, when they become disobedient and even rebellious. How much more will God not do that to us?
Luke 11:10-14
King James Version
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
We can cut off our fellowship with a rebellious child, but we cannot sever the relationship, that is genetics forever. Same with god.
I am not promoting sinning while saved,m nor being slothful in se4rving God, I am just showing what Scripture says.
Teh bible speaks of who we are as believers in two realms. Our position which is eternally secure for we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God. (relationship)
And our practice , which sadly goes up anjd down and can swing wildly (fellowship)
Your writing strongly suggests that when one accepts Jesus and trusts in His death and resurrection He really hasn't forgiven all of a persons sins. According to you , as god knows all things, He saves a person knowing full well He will unsave them and thus is holding a persons sins to their account. So Jesus' blood is not enough to remove all sin.
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