22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[rwb]

Let me try another angle to this. When exactly in relation to the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet, do you believe the following will occur:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

In the days when the seventh angel begins to sound, after Satan has a little season.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't know how long Satan is given a little season. I can only surmise through the Concordance that it's a very small amount of time.

How long would that be then? What is the maximum amount of time you think it would be that it would still be considered "a very small amount of time"? You indicated before that you believe the "little season" referenced in Revelation 6:11 lasted about 3 1/2 years. Do you consider 3 1/2 years to be a very small amount of time?

You also indicated earlier that you thought I may be correct in seeing a connection between Satan's little season and the mass falling away and increase in wickedness that Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2:1-12 and that Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:10-13. What amount of time would that entail? It doesn't seem to me that a mass falling away from the faith and such would happen in a very small amount of time. A short amount of time, sure, but it would take at least a few years, I would think.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the days when the seventh angel begins to sound, after Satan has a little season.

Thanks for your response. I'll post that passage again for reference:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

So, I don't know how you are concluding that what is described here would happen basically on the last of multiple days (however many that is) that the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.

What this passage indicates to me is that the dead in Christ will be raised and we will all be changed immediately upon the sounding of the last trumpet. Notice that Paul says we will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye" and he said that "the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed". He gives a strong impression here that the raising of the dead in Christ and our bodies being changed will happen immediately upon the sounding of the last (seventh) trumpet. But, in your view, this does not happen until some amount of days after the seventh angel has sounded (or has begun to sound) the seventh and last trumpet. Again, that is not the impression I get when reading this passage at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can it symbolize all time?

It can't, but the way you are wording things can give the impression that you are saying that. You said "a thousand years does indeed equal time". But then followed that up by saying "but not all time". Can you see how that might be confusing? What did you mean when you said "a thousand years does indeed equal time"?

Saints don't live and reign with Christ for all time, but only during their lives on earth.

But, you believe their souls go to heaven when they die and the live and reign with Him there, right? You believe the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven reigning with Christ right now, right?

It is time that began with the first advent of Christ, and concludes when the Kingdom of God is complete, or as John writes the mystery of God that should be finished. The little season of time given to Satan is not counted with this time given to build the Kingdom but comes after this specific time is complete.

Yeah, once you clarify things I can see that you don't equate the thousand years with time itself because you do believe it ends and you do differentiate it from Satan's little season of time. But, all I'm saying is that you saying things like "a thousand years does indeed equal time" can be confusing.

John writes a thousand years of living and reigning with Christ. If the saints live and reign with Christ throughout all time why write it as a thousand years?

You understand that I'm not equating a thousand years with all time, right? All I'm saying is that what you said can give that impression even though I know that's not what you actually believe. I don't know about you, but I'm getting exhausted having to explain what I mean (kidding).

The saints live and reign with Christ during their lifetimes, and whether they live and reign with Christ for one day or one hundred years in life, it is counted symbolically as a thousand years.

Okay, you lost me here. You don't see the figurative thousand years as beginning about the time of Christ's resurrection and lasting up until a little season before Christ returns?

 

[rwb]

How long would that be then? What is the maximum amount of time you think it would be that it would still be considered "a very small amount of time"? You indicated before that you believe the "little season" referenced in Revelation 6:11 lasted about 3 1/2 years. Do you consider 3 1/2 years to be a very small amount of time?

You also indicated earlier that you thought I may be correct in seeing a connection between Satan's little season and the mass falling away and increase in wickedness that Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2:1-12 and that Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:10-13. What amount of time would that entail? It doesn't seem to me that a mass falling away from the faith and such would happen in a very small amount of time. A short amount of time, sure, but it would take at least a few years, I would think.

I truly cannot give an answer for what I do not know! As I've already said, I believe Satan's little season will be short because it is defined as
least, less, little, small, a space of time, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:—+ years old, season, space, (× often-)time(-s), (a) while.

 

[WPM]

In the days when the seventh angel begins to sound, after Satan has a little season.

You are adding onto Scripture bro.

 

[WPM]

Thanks for your response. I'll post that passage again for reference:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

So, I don't know how you are concluding that what is described here would happen basically on the last of multiple days (however many that is) that the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.

What this passage indicates to me is that the dead in Christ will be raised and we will all be changed immediately upon the sounding of the last trumpet. Notice that Paul says we will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye" and he said that "the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed". He gives a strong impression here that the raising of the dead in Christ and our bodies being changed will happen immediately upon the sounding of the last (seventh) trumpet. But, in your view, this does not happen until some amount of days after the seventh angel has sounded (or has begun to sound) the seventh and last trumpet. Again, that is not the impression I get when reading this passage at all.

Bro, this is so clear.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I truly cannot give an answer for what I do not know! As I've already said, I believe Satan's little season will be short because it is defined as
least, less, little, small, a space of time, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:—+ years old, season, space, (× often-)time(-s), (a) while.

That's reasonable, but since you see the little season of Revelation 6:11 as lasting 3 1/2 years, do you think it's reasonable to see the little season of Revelation 20:7-9 as being a much shorter duration than that? I see a lack of consistency here in your understanding of that term.

By the way, I see the little season of Revelation 6:11 as being the same little season of Revelation 20:7-9. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you playing dumb or...? No one cares if you use those terms. At least, they shouldn't. It's what those terms represent in Catholic doctrine that people disagree with. No one should make a big deal about what terms people want to use to describe their beliefs.

Playing dumb??
Read the posts . . .

I get what you’re saying – but I STILL get challenged and attacked for certain VERBIAGE – not doctrine.

The name “Catholic” is not in the Bible.
That’s an asinine argument because the word comes from the Scriptural phras “ekklesia kata holos” (Acts 9:31) – but I STILL get attacked.

Similarly, the term “Particular Judgement” is not in the Bible – but the teaching is there and I given examples. STILL – the argument comes about the actual words “Particular Judgement”. When they don't have a leg to stand on - they attack the verbiage.

YOU seem to understand even though terms like “Trinity” are not in the bible – the TEACHING is there (Gen. 1:26, Matt. 28:19, John 15:26, 1 Cor. 12:4-6, 2 Cor. 13:14, 1 John 5:7, Eph. 4:6, Psalm 68:5, Mal. 2:10, Isa. 63:16, 2 Cor. 1:3-4, John 3:16, John 8:41, 1 Thess. 3:13, Isa. 7:14, Isa. 9:6, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 15:9, John 20:28, Acts 5:3-4, 2 Cor. 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Tit. 2:13, John 14:16-18, Luke 12:10, 2 Cor. 3:17, 2 Cor. 13:5, John 14:23, Acts 5:3-4).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Playing dumb??

Yes. You're acting like you don't understand that most people do not get all caught up in worrying about what terms are being used. It's what those terms represent that people have a problem with.

Read the posts . . .

I get what you’re saying – but I STILL get challenged and attacked for certain VERBIAGE – not doctrine.

Get over it. Most people don't do that.

The name “Catholic” is not in the Bible.
That’s an asinine argument because the word comes from the Scriptural phras “ekklesia kata holos” (Acts 9:31) – but I STILL get attacked.

Similarly, the term “Particular Judgement” is not in the Bible – but the teaching is there and I given examples. STILL – the argument comes about the actual words “Particular Judgement”. When they don't have a leg to stand on - they attack the verbiage.

YOU seem to understand even though terms like “Trinity” are not in the bible – the TEACHING is there (Gen. 1:26, Matt. 28:19, John 15:26, 1 Cor. 12:4-6, 2 Cor. 13:14, 1 John 5:7, Eph. 4:6, Psalm 68:5, Mal. 2:10, Isa. 63:16, 2 Cor. 1:3-4, John 3:16, John 8:41, 1 Thess. 3:13, Isa. 7:14, Isa. 9:6, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 15:9, John 20:28, Acts 5:3-4, 2 Cor. 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Tit. 2:13, John 14:16-18, Luke 12:10, 2 Cor. 3:17, 2 Cor. 13:5, John 14:23, Acts 5:3-4).

Of course I understand that. You know why? Because I'm not stupid. It would be helpful for you to explicitly define what this "Particular Judgement" entails exactly and where you think scripture talks about it. Then that could be discussed as to whether it's biblical or not. Now, if you think you have already done that, fine. Don't rant at me about that. I haven't read everything you have posted. But, at this point I really don't know what this "Particular Judgement" is exactly and where you think scripture references it. Most people, when they hear talk about a judgment or judgment day think about the scriptures that specifically reference judgment day, which is a future day that is coming at which point all people will be gathered before Christ to give an account of themselves.

 

[rwb]

It can't, but the way you are wording things can give the impression that you are saying that. You said "a thousand years does indeed equal time". But then followed that up by saying "but not all time". Can you see how that might be confusing? What did you mean when you said "a thousand years does indeed equal time"?

It is time symbolized a thousand years because it is the lifetimes of all the saints, which is not all time but specifically counted as time we live and reign with Christ in life on earth.

But, you believe their souls go to heaven when they die and the live and reign with Him there, right? You believe the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven reigning with Christ right now, right?

Yes after death just as proven in the Bible (see Ecc 12:7) when the body dies the spirit returns to God who gave it. If we have the Holy Spirit in us, we go alive to heaven a spiritual body or living soul. That's what Paul meant when he was anxious to be absent from his mortal body and to be present with the Lord in heaven. If we lived and reigned with Christ in life, then we will be with spiritually alive with Him after death.

Yeah, once you clarify things I can see that you don't equate the thousand years with time itself because you do believe it ends and you do differentiate it from Satan's little season of time. But, all I'm saying is that you saying things like "a thousand years does indeed equal time" can be confusing.

But it does equal time. The time the saints live and die while on the earth.

You understand that I'm not equating a thousand years with all time, right? All I'm saying is that what you said can give that impression even though I know that's not what you actually believe. I don't know about you, but I'm getting exhausted having to explain what I mean (kidding).

No, I agree! It is getting very exhausting. I had no idea I would stir up such a hornet's nest among my Amil brothers/sisters?

Okay, you lost me here. You don't see the figurative thousand years as beginning about the time of Christ's resurrection and lasting up until a little season before Christ returns?

Yes, but since His cross and resurrection the Old Covenant faithful saints are spiritually alive with Christ in heaven because during their lives they believed Messiah would come to rescue them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I did not say it was a guarantee for false professors, false teachers or idolaters. It is a guarantee for genuine born again believers.

Jesus says in John 10:26-29, rebuking the false professors, "ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

The questions all need to ask is:

Is your confidence built upon Him, His Word and what He has done for you or is it built upon you, what you have done for Him, and your ability to save yourself?
Who keeps us, God or ourselves?
Is it your grip on Him that you are putting your hope in or His grip on you?

Jesus said in Matthew 7:24-27

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Sand is not a good foundation. So the man described in this parable is crazy if he thinks his building is going to survive. I believe the Rock here represents Christ, and the sand represents self. The choice for every human is either self or Christ. My problem with your doctrine is that it causes men to put their confidence in themselves, what they have supposedly done for Him and in them keeping themselves.

NKJV says of 1 Corinthians 3:11, “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

The crucial question for man is: Is your faith truly built upon a Rock or is it built upon sand?

· A house properly built upon the Rock stands firm in the midst of adversity.
· The house built upon the sand falls apart.

Christ wants to be your security.
Christ wants to be your strength.
Christ wants to be the source of your happiness.
Christ wants to be your direction.
Christ wants to be your hope.
Christ wants to be your future.

If Christ is not your foundation you will be constantly defeated, discouraged, deflated and depressed. God is looking us to be dependent upon Him and His commands: our flesh wants to operate independent of God and His commands. Remember sin is basically living a life independent from God. It is doing your own thing. Which describes you? If your foundation is not Christ you have built your life upon sand, and one day you are going to see how foolish you are. But it will be too late!

GREAT – you agree with the CATHOLIC position.

God’s grace demands our cooperation in order for it to work.
Coming to Christ and being Baptized is the FIRST step – but it’s NOT the end.

Enduring in faith is a requirement – NOT an option . . .

 

[rwb]

You are adding onto Scripture bro.

No Paul, I don't believe I am. What I am doing is using verses found in other passages of Scripture to understand what John means when he writes the mystery of God should be finished in the days when the seventh angel begins to sound. IOW using Scripture to be its own interpreter.

 

[rwb]

That's reasonable, but since you see the little season of Revelation 6:11 as lasting 3 1/2 years, do you think it's reasonable to see the little season of Revelation 20:7-9 as being a much shorter duration than that? I see a lack of consistency here in your understanding of that term.

By the way, I see the little season of Revelation 6:11 as being the same little season of Revelation 20:7-9. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

It may seem reasonable to me, but I cannot prove it from the Bible. I've said it seems more reasonable to understand little season as a short or small amount of time. I have a differing opinion regarding Rev 6 little season. I believe a biblical argument can be made that the souls being killed were Old Covenant faithful saints who had to wait to ascend to heaven after death for Christ to come and defeat both sin and death.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes. You're acting like you don't understand that most people do not get all caught up in worrying about what terms are being used. It's what those terms represent that people have a problem with.

Get over it. Most people don't do that.

You erroneously label your fellow Protestant with the same sweeping generalizations in which you judge Catholics.

How do YOU know how many times I have to deal with this ignorant nonsense? I get this argument at LEAST 3 time s a week on this forum. I would rather be engaged in intelligent debates here instead of dealing with the semantic nit-pickings of angry anti-Catholics.

Yes. You're acting like you don't understand that most people do not get all caught up in worrying about what terms are being used. It's what those terms represent that people have a problem with.


Get over it. Most people don't do that.


Of course I understand that. You know why? Because I'm not stupid. It would be helpful for you to explicitly define what this "Particular Judgement" entails exactly and where you think scripture talks about it. Then that could be discussed as to whether it's biblical or not. Now, if you think you have already done that, fine. Don't rant at me about that. I haven't read everything you have posted. But, at this point I really don't know what this "Particular Judgement" is exactly and where you think scripture references it. Most people, when they hear talk about a judgment or judgment day think about the scriptures that specifically reference judgment day, which is a future day that is coming at which point all people will be gathered before Christ to give an account of themselves.

Of course I understand that. You know why? Because I'm not stupid. It would be helpful for you to explicitly define what this "Particular Judgement" entails exactly and where you think scripture talks about it. Then that could be discussed as to whether it's biblical or not. Now, if you think you have already done that, fine. Don't rant at me about that. I haven't read everything you have posted. But, at this point I really don't know what this "Particular Judgement" is exactly and where you think scripture references it. Most people, when they hear talk about a judgment or judgment day think about the scriptures that specifically reference judgment day, which is a future day that is coming at which point all people will be gathered before Christ to give an account of themselves.

Since I' have explained Particular Judgement already ad nauseam - I'll leave it to YOU to read about it in my posts.
If you're not going to take the time to read the posts - then don't get into the discussion . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is time symbolized a thousand years because it is the lifetimes of all the saints, which is not all time but specifically counted as time we live and reign with Christ in life on earth.

We disagree on this then. Do you not beleive that Satan's little season occurs in the future? You do, right? I'm pretty sure. The scripture indicates that Satan's little season will begin right after the thousand years ends. In your view, the thousand years has already ended for many people. Yet, Satan's little season has not yet begun (or, at least does not begin at the end of each person's life). If the thousand years applies to each person rather than an actual amount of time that started around the time of Christ's resurrection leading up to a future time when it will end and Satan's little season will begin, then I don't see how that makes any sense.

Yes after death just as proven in the Bible (see Ecc 12:7) when the body dies the spirit returns to God who gave it. If we have the Holy Spirit in us, we go alive to heaven a spiritual body or living soul. That's what Paul meant when he was anxious to be absent from his mortal body and to be present with the Lord in heaven. If we lived and reigned with Christ in life, then we will be with spiritually alive with Him after death.

Okay, so you do believe that the souls of the dead in Christ go to heaven when they physically die and reign with Him there. Good. We agree on that then.

But it does equal time. The time the saints live and die while on the earth.

To say it equals time without that added bit of detail is confusing. Why not just say that you think it equals the time saints live and die while on the earth instead of first saying it equals time...and then saying what time you are talking about. Maybe I'm just nitpicking here, but your way of explaining what you believe can be confusing. But, I will say this as well. Let's say someone die when they are 70. That means you are saying the thousand years figuratively represents 70 years in that person's case. I don't get that at all. How can a thousand years figuratively represent a much smaller amount of time? In other places in scripture where the word "thousand" is used figuratively, it represent a larger number than a literal one thousand (such as the references to a thousand generations and the cattle on a thousand hills). Why not in this case as well?

No, I agree! It is getting very exhausting. I had no idea I would stir up such a hornet's nest among my Amil brothers/sisters?

It's not a major point of contention, so don't get me wrong on this. It's just interesting to discuss and it's taking a lot of work for each of us to clarify what we believe so that the other person can understand. I didn't anticipate that would be the case, either. But, it is what it is. No worries.

Yes, but since His cross and resurrection the Old Covenant faithful saints are spiritually alive with Christ in heaven because during their lives they believed Messiah would come to rescue them.

Okay, now I'm even more confused about your view. You said "Yes" in response to me asking "You don't see the figurative thousand years as beginning about the time of Christ's resurrection and lasting up until a little season before Christ returns?". But, then you say that the thousand years represents each dead saint's lifetime. How can it represent both of those things? In one case the thousand years represents a time period much less than a literal thousand years and in the other it represent a time period longer than a thousand years. It can't do both.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You erroneously label your fellow Protestant with the same sweeping generalizations in which you judge Catholics.

What are you talking about?

How do YOU know how many times I have to deal with this ignorant nonsense?

I have seen these arguments online a lot of times and I haven't seen much of that. Does your own experience represent everyone's experience? Hardly. Get over yourself.

I get this argument at LEAST 3 time s a week on this forum. I would rather be engaged in intelligent debates here instead of dealing with the semantic nit-pickings of angry anti-Catholics.

So, just go away then. Nothing is going to change here in that sense and you know that.

Since I' have explained Particular Judgement already ad nauseam - I'll leave it to YOU to read about it in my posts.
If you're not going to take the time to read the posts - then don't get into the discussion . . .

I can do whatever I want. I don't need your permission. You bore me with your nonsense, anyway, so I'l gladly bow out of this boring discussion and get back to the far more interesting discussion that actually relates to what this thread is supposed to be about. The fact that you seemingly try to interject your Catholic nonsense into every thread you can is pathetic.

 

[WPM]

GREAT – you agree with the CATHOLIC position.

God’s grace demands our cooperation in order for it to work.
Coming to Christ and being Baptized is the FIRST step – but it’s NOT the end.

Enduring in faith is a requirement – NOT an option . . .

I do NOT agree with Romanism in any way. It is apostate. It is a counterfeit. Its teaching is erroneous and dangerous. It preaches a false gospel. It has no hope because its faith is not built upon what Christ has done for us. It is built upon self-attainment.

 

[rwb]

We disagree on this then. Do you not beleive that Satan's little season occurs in the future? You do, right? I'm pretty sure. The scripture indicates that Satan's little season will begin right after the thousand years ends. In your view, the thousand years has already ended for many people. Yet, Satan's little season has not yet begun (or, at least does not begin at the end of each person's life). If the thousand years applies to each person rather than an actual amount of time that started around the time of Christ's resurrection leading up to a future time when it will end and Satan's little season will begin, then I don't see how that makes any sense.

Its time equated to a thousand years because the saints live and die throughout this time, thus far almost two thousand years. When the last saint is saved in life, they have entered this time equated a thousand years. A thousand years could not begin to be counted until the advent of Christ come to earth a man. This time clearly has a beginning an end date, which shall be when Satan is freed, but also when the spiritual Kingdom of God has been completed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Its time equated to a thousand years because the saints live and die throughout this time, thus far almost two thousand years. When the last saint is saved in life, they have entered this time equated a thousand years. A thousand years could not begin to be counted until the advent of Christ come to earth a man. This time clearly has a beginning an end date, which shall be when Satan is freed,

I agree up to this point.

but also when the spiritual Kingdom of God has been completed.

I disagree with this. I believe that people will have the opportunity to be saved right up until the day Christ returns at which point the opportunity for salvation will end.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Do you agree that when Peter referred to "his promise" here that he was referring back to this promise that he had referenced shortly before that:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

If so, then what 2 Peter 3:9 tells me is that the Lord is not being slow in keeping the promise of His return, but is being patient and taking His time because He doesn't want "anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance". That tells me that He is not going to return until He has decided to not give people any more time to repent. Once that day comes then He will descend from heaven, we will be changed and gathered to Him in the air and He will destroy all of His enemies.