22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But, I will say this as well. Let's say someone die when they are 70. That means you are saying the thousand years figuratively represents 70 years in that person's case. I don't get that at all. How can a thousand years figuratively represent a much smaller amount of time? In other places in scripture where the word "thousand" is used figuratively, it represent a larger number than a literal one thousand (such as the references to a thousand generations and the cattle on a thousand hills). Why not in this case as well?

I would say the person living 70 years if he died belonging to Christ, has lived and reigned with Christ during this time likened a thousand years. It really doesn't matter if one has lived and reigned with Christ for only one day during their life, then died, they too have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Okay, now I'm even more confused about your view. You said "Yes" in response to me asking "You don't see the figurative thousand years as beginning about the time of Christ's resurrection and lasting up until a little season before Christ returns?". But, then you say that the thousand years represents each dead saint's lifetime. How can it represent both of those things? In one case the thousand years represents a time period much less than a literal thousand years and in the other it represent a time period longer than a thousand years. It can't do both.

Sorry to be confusing. So many thoughts to be thoroughly understood practically require a book to adequately explain. Yes, the thousand years began with Christ coming to earth a man. Old Covenant saints are included according to Covenant promise. The thousand years equates to the lifetimes of ALL (both Old & New) the saints. The Old Covenant faithful looking forward to the Messiah to come to redeem them and the New Covenant faithful looking back to Christ after fulfilling that which was promised. The Old Covenant faithful having lived and died believing in Messiah to come lived and reigned with Him through/by His Covenant promise. Saints live and reign with Christ a thousand years regardless how long or short their lives may be or have been.
 
Last edited:

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree up to this point.


I disagree with this. I believe that people will have the opportunity to be saved right up until the day Christ returns at which point the opportunity for salvation will end.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Do you agree that when Peter referred to "his promise" here that he was referring back to this promise that he had referenced shortly before that:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

If so, then what 2 Peter 3:9 tells me is that the Lord is not being slow in keeping the promise of His return, but is being patient and taking His time because He doesn't want "anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance". That tells me that He is not going to return until He has decided to not give people any more time to repent. Once that day comes then He will descend from heaven, we will be changed and gathered to Him in the air and He will destroy all of His enemies.

You could very well be correct. However, I believe since Satan was bound so the Kingdom of God could be built as Gentiles come in through the Gospel, I don't believe he will be set free until the Kingdom of God is complete. Why would God set him free to deceive as he had before his binding if he is set free before the Kingdom of God is complete?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,564
4,207
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree up to this point.


I disagree with this. I believe that people will have the opportunity to be saved right up until the day Christ returns at which point the opportunity for salvation will end.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Do you agree that when Peter referred to "his promise" here that he was referring back to this promise that he had referenced shortly before that:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

If so, then what 2 Peter 3:9 tells me is that the Lord is not being slow in keeping the promise of His return, but is being patient and taking His time because He doesn't want "anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance". That tells me that He is not going to return until He has decided to not give people any more time to repent. Once that day comes then He will descend from heaven, we will be changed and gathered to Him in the air and He will destroy all of His enemies.

Exactly bro. Scripture does not say otherwise. This is the problem with going down a wrong road. It forces you to add unto what the text teaches. The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4 and 2 Timothy 2:10. This shows that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.

Scripture only depicts it being too late when the ark door is closed. That is when Jesus comes, not when Satan's little season arrives. Nowhere teaches that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,655
3,591
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What are you talking about?


I have seen these arguments online a lot of times and I haven't seen much of that. Does your own experience represent everyone's experience? Hardly. Get over yourself.
Hey - I'm not the one who had problems with my posts.
YOU did . . .

So, just go away then. Nothing is going to change here in that sense and you know that.
And just give ignoramus after ignoramus the license to to vomit out lies about my Church with impunity?
NOT
likely . . .

I can do whatever I want. I don't need your permission. You bore me with your nonsense, anyway, so I'l gladly bow out of this boring discussion and get back to the far more interesting discussion that actually relates to what this thread is supposed to be about. The fact that you seemingly try to interject your Catholic nonsense into every thread you can is pathetic.
I know it's confusing for someone with your woefully-limited understanding - but that is the very essence of a discussion forum, Einstein . . .
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That tells me that He is not going to return until He has decided to not give people any more time to repent. Once that day comes then He will descend from heaven, we will be changed and gathered to Him in the air and He will destroy all of His enemies.

Who is left and desires to repent who is not already saved when Satan has been loosed before Christ comes again? There are none in between, there are nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, then there is the camp of the saints and the beloved city. The lines are already drawn when Satan is loosed, one is either of Gog and Magog or the camp of the saints.

Revelation 20:8-9 (KJV) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,655
3,591
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do NOT agree with Romanism in any way. It is apostate. It is a counterfeit. Its teaching is erroneous and dangerous. It preaches a false gospel. It has no hope because its faith is not built upon what Christ has done for us. It is built upon self-attainment.
THANK YOU for displaying a complete ignorance of Catholic teaching that you only THINK you disagree with . . .
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,564
4,207
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
THANK YOU for displaying a complete ignorance of Catholic teaching that you only THINK you disagree with . . .

I know it well. I have seen the wicked fruit of it for years. Come into the light and look at what everyone else can see. It is in terminal decline. It just needs a decent burial. I have seen my wife's family get delivered from Rome. What a joy to see. Many in our church are the same. They are closing churches all around us. PTL!

You need a medal for sitting through the mass. It is dead and boring. Catholics are voting with their feet. They have better things to do with their time than go through the same boring ritual every week. Long may it continue. It is driving people into the arms of truth and Christ. People are looking for life.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,655
3,591
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I know it well. I have seen the wicked fruit of it for years. Come into the light and look at what everyone else can see. It is in terminal decline. It just needs a decent burial. I have seen my wife's family get delivered from Rome. What a joy to see. Many in our church are the same. They are closing churches all around us. PTL!

You need a medal for sitting through the mass. It is dead and boring. ChCatholics are voting with their feet. They have better things to do with their time than go through the same boring ritual every week. Long may it continue. It is driving people into the arms of truth and Christ. People are looking for life.
That's funny - MANY of my friends are Catholic converts from Protestantism . . .

Sadly, Christianity in general is taking it on the chin as far as the numbers go. But, don't fool yourself thinking that this is a "Catholic" issue - anymore that the molestation problem . . .

As for the Mass - it's the most beautiful re-presentation of Christ's eternal sacrifice. It doesn't surprise me that YOU would be bored.
How could you enjoy what you don't understand??
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,564
4,207
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's funny - MANY of my friends are Catholic converts from Protestantism . . .

Sadly, Christianity in general is taking it on the chin as far as the numbers go. But, don't fool yourself thinking that this is a "Catholic" issue - anymore that the molestation problem . . .

As for the Mass - it's the most beautiful re-presentation of Christ's eternal sacrifice. It doesn't surprise me that YOU would be bored.
How could you enjoy what you don't understand??

I do not believe you. You are living in a deluded bubble. The whole thing is an elaborate religious sham.

11 RCCs are closing in our area because of falling attendances. We (on the other-hand) are needing to build a bigger building to contain what God is doing. People want life. People want truth. People want reality. That is why they are abandoning the dead churches.
 
  • Like
Reactions: covenantee

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,969
3,752
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, it's not merely ONE thousand years of time. But it is time symbolically written as that which began with the first advent of Christ and will end in the days when the seventh angel begins to sound.
(Thousand Years) in revelation 20:4-6 does nothing more than show (The Souls) and (The Dead) are in the Lord's eternal spiritual,where one day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is one day

You continue to put an earthly starting and finishing point on (Thousand Years) "Wrong"

Your underlying intent is to join your claims to (First Resurrection) seen in these verses, and claim this pertains to those who partake in the Lord's resurrection upon salvation, "Wrong Again"

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
11,969
3,752
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you understood the purpose for Satan to be bound is for building the spiritual Kingdom of God, not so that he cannot wage a great battle upon this earth.
I Disagree with your interpretation

Satan is bound from on specific thing, deceiving the nations in gathering them to battle, as you have been shown countless times

Jesus Is The Lord
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
6,393
2,729
113
73
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Tell you what - I'll respond to this irrelevant topic when YOU addess how the Protestant OT Canon came about - which is what we were talking about.
What is or is not in the Protestant canon which precludes or prevents any individual from receiving the Gospel message, and coming to salvation in Christ by grace through faith?
 
  • Like
Reactions: WPM

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Tim,
You are oblivious to fact that its all about the blood when it comes to covenants. The atonement covenant therefore has already been confirmed as our Lords blood has already been shed.
The book of Hebrews is something you should be embracing...,

Heb 9

9 Now even the first covenant had regulations for divine worship and for the earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle (sacred tent) was put up, the outer one or first section, in which were the lampstand and the table with [its loaves of] the sacred showbread; this is called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second veil there was another tabernacle [the inner one or second section] known as the Holy of Holies, 4 having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. This contained a golden jar which held the manna, and the rod of Aaron that sprouted, and the [two stone] tablets of the covenant [inscribed with the Ten Commandments]; 5 and above the ark were the [golden] cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but we cannot now go into detail about these things.

6 Now when these things have been prepared in this way, the priests continually enter the outer [or first section of the] tabernacle [that is, the Holy Place] performing [their ritual acts of] the divine worship, 7 but into the second [inner tabernacle, the Holy of Holies], only the high priest enters [and then only] once a year, and never without [bringing a sacrifice of] blood, which he offers [as a substitutionary atonement] for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 By this the Holy Spirit signifies that the way into the Holy Place [the true Holy of Holies and the presence of God] has not yet been disclosed as long as the first or outer tabernacle is still standing [that is, as long as the Levitical system of worship remains a recognized institution], 9 for this [first or outer tabernacle] is a symbol [that is, an archetype or paradigm] for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which are incapable of perfecting the conscience and renewing the [inner self of the] worshiper. 10 For they [the gifts, sacrifices, and ceremonies] deal only with [clean and unclean] food and drink and various ritual washings, [mere] external regulations for the body imposed [to help the worshipers] until the time of reformation [that is, the time of the new order when Christ will establish the reality of what these things foreshadow—a better covenant].


11 But when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things to come [that is, true spiritual worship], He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not a part of this [material] creation. 12 He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption [that is, the salvation of all who personally believe in Him as Savior].

13 For if the sprinkling of [ceremonially] defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a [burnt] heifer is sufficient for the cleansing of the body, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal [Holy] Spirit willingly offered Himself unblemished [that is, without moral or spiritual imperfection as a sacrifice] to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works and lifeless observances to serve the ever living God?

15 For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment of] the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has taken place [as the payment] which redeems them from the sins committed under the obsolete first covenant.

16 For where there is a will and testament involved, the death of the one who made it must be established, 17 for a will and testament takes effect [only] at death, since it is never in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 So even the first covenant was not put in force without [the shedding of] blood. 19 For when every commandment in the Law had been read by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the calves and goats [which had been sacrificed], together with water and scarlet wool and with a bunch of hyssop, and he sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant [that seals and ratifies the agreement] which God ordained and commanded [me to deliver to] you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the containers and sacred utensils of worship with the blood. 22 In fact under the Law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness [neither release from sin and its guilt, nor cancellation of the merited punishment].

23 Therefore it was necessary for the [earthly] copies of the heavenly things to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves required far better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but [He entered] into heaven itself, now to appear in the very presence of God on our behalf; 25 nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer over and over since the foundation of the world; but now once for all at the consummation of the ages He has appeared and been publicly manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is appointed and destined for all men to die once and after this [comes certain] judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.
When have I ever said Jesus acts as Messiah over and over again?

At the Second Coming Jesus sets up His throne as King. After the Trumpets and Thunders, we see the 7th Trumpet as the victory celebration Trumpet. That is when Jesus as King confirms the Atonement with the last of Adam's dead flesh. If God says there are still a few more souls still redeemed, then Satan will be given 42 months. That will allow those who remain in the Lamb's book of life, to decide to have their head chopped off, while refusing to accept the mark. Because the only way to be a soul that was beheaded is to no longer have a head. Thus they remain in the Lamb's book of life, and under the Altar, under the Atonement Covenant.

Your point does not apply to the Second Coming like you think it does, because the Second Coming was still 2,000 years away. The writer of Hebrews was showing what the Cross entails, then explains no more sin at the Second Coming when Jesus appears as King. Even after the final harvest, there may be some souls that will be confirmed as part of the Atonement Covenant, not part of the sheep nor wheat. These people are referred to as the beheaded. And the only reasonable explanation of beheaded is they had their heads chopped off.

Pretty sure it is Amil who are oblivious to the Fact Jesus as King sets up an earthly throne at the Second Coming. The throne that Scripture states Satan will sit on as "God". I am puzzled why you all keep going on and on about the Messiah part that was already accomplished. My favorite verse of all time for the last 45 years is:

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

I guess the second easiest verse to learn after John 11:35. But they do go hand in hand.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Whether YOU believe the above to be true or not is irrelevant.

MY
position all along during this argument had been that there is indeed a Particular Judgement that happens immediately after death.

I have been inundated with opposing views stating everything from the idea that we “wait” somewhere in the afterlife for our judgement to the idea that we will either go to Heaven or Hell “automatically” - WITHOUT being judged.

BOTH of these positions are unbiblical nonsense.

In fact – the ONLY reason I brought up the Judgement in Matt, 25 was to show that even those I Christ will indeed be judged.
The judgment in Matthew 25:31 is giving to living humans who have never physically died.

In that case they are appointed once to judgment, and after that physical death.

The sheep are given God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The goats cast into the LOF.

The sheep are not "in Christ" until pronounced sheep and changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They never were born again until that moment they passed from death into life. But they don't join the church in Paradise. They live and reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years.

What judgment does the soul see when immediately leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body?

Point out the judgment in this verse: 2 Corinthians 5:1.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

There is no waiting or standing in line. Do you not accept the Cross as the Judgment for sin? 1 Peter 2:24

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

Is that not the whole point of Isaiah 53 that Peter was quoting? The judgment of sin was covered by the Messiah, and all in Christ have already been judged in Christ on the Cross?
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
9,639
629
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Pure nonsense. That is all you ever have to share. I just don't get it. How do you come up with your nonsense? Explain the process to me.
Read God's Word instead of Orthodox Theology.

You do realize Amil is not found any where in Scripture?

Explain how human teaching on Amil is not pure man made doctrine not found in Scripture. I know it is not in Scripture. There are a few private opinions that make it plausible, but you have to contradict so many verses to get it to work.
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
6,393
2,729
113
73
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Read God's Word instead of Orthodox Theology.

You do realize Amil is not found any where in Scripture?

Explain how human teaching on Amil is not pure man made doctrine not found in Scripture. I know it is not in Scripture. There are a few private opinions that make it plausible, but you have to contradict so many verses to get it to work.
Read the united testimonies of the historic defenders of the true faith to discover the faith, vision, and sacrifice which God vested in them to sustain and perpetuate His Truth; instead of presenting your cultic private interpretations as ersatz substitutes for the historic legacies of the saints.

You do realize that none of your delusions are found anywhere in the historic Scriptural orthodoxy of the true Church? Thus you are never able to provide any evidence of historic orthodox support, despite many repeated requests to do so.

No single individual is ever the sole oracle of truth, but "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21).

That's many more than just one man.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
4,233
1,904
113
73
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
(Thousand Years) in revelation 20:4-6 does nothing more than show (The Souls) and (The Dead) are in the Lord's eternal spiritual,where one day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is one day

You continue to put an earthly starting and finishing point on (Thousand Years) "Wrong"

Your underlying intent is to join your claims to (First Resurrection) seen in these verses, and claim this pertains to those who partake in the Lord's resurrection upon salvation, "Wrong Again"

Jesus Is The Lord

I believe John writes the souls alive in heaven are there because while still alive they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. John also writes there shall be others blessed and holy, he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years. Since this time of reigning with Christ speaks of whosoever in life spiritually lives and reigns with Christ before they physically die, it makes no sense to say the saints only live and reign with Christ in His spiritual realm of heaven after they die and ascend there.

If we do not live and reign with Christ while living in time, then we shall not live and reign with Him after death.

I affirm what Scripture teaches. That is we are in life blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ, spiritually seated with Christ in heaven while still alive on earth. We, who were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, Christ has made spiritually alive, and raised believers up together with Him through His Spirit in us. We only live and reign with Christ when we have partaken of His resurrected life. For He is the 'first resurrection' and shall never die again, and it is His first resurrection we MUST have part of in life to ascend to heaven alive after our time, likened a thousand years, is ended by physical death.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,564
4,207
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who is left and desires to repent who is not already saved when Satan has been loosed before Christ comes again? There are none in between, there are nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, then there is the camp of the saints and the beloved city. The lines are already drawn when Satan is loosed, one is either of Gog and Magog or the camp of the saints.

Revelation 20:8-9 (KJV) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This is simply not true. Amils typically build their beliefs on explicit statements and support it with other Scripture. You do neither here. You come up with an opinion and then force it upon the text. This is not how it works.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,564
4,207
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No Paul, I don't believe I am. What I am doing is using verses found in other passages of Scripture to understand what John means when he writes the mystery of God should be finished in the days when the seventh angel begins to sound. IOW using Scripture to be its own interpreter.
I addressed this subject of the mystery of God in detail above (#8,080 and 8,081) but you failed to address it. That occurs at the second coming according to repeated Scripture, not before Satan's little season. And, no, you have not given supporting Scripture. You have not even given a proof-text that explicitly states what you are claiming.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.