22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Timtofly

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WRONG.
EVERYBODY must go through Judgementeven those in Christ.

Jesus illustrates what this will be like for them:
Matt. 25:34-40

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
Sorry, but Matthew 25:31 is after the Second Coming, and not for the church at all.

The church is already judged and enjoying Paradise, because the Cross was the judgment, God required for sin. That is why the thief entered Paradise that day, and Abraham's bosom was empty, that day.

Matthew 25:31 is for Jacob and Jacob's trouble during the first 6 Trumpets, only a remnant will be redeemed as sheep. The majority will be goats, tossed into the LOF.

That is a judgment for living unbelievers, to determine their eternal status. The LOF or reigning with Christ on earth, during the Millennium. Those people do not experience physical death. The goats are tossed alive into the LOF: soul, body, and spirit. The sheep are removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh and given God's permanent incorruptible physical body, the first resurrection without physical death, and they will never die the second death, that the goats were given.
 

Timtofly

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Yeah right! No one knows the truth apart from you. What absolute nonsense. You invent beliefs that no one else teaches and then rubbish the rest. That is ultimate deception.
The established church claims Christian orthodoxy, which is human theology. Obviously you accept your own additional theological writings along side of God's Word. That is Christian orthodoxy. You are the one claiming to have truth along side God's Word, not me.

When I point out God's Word, you are the one that blows a gasket.

Now you are deflecting and accusing me of what you have been doing all along, with your theological orthodoxy. You have stated only you have the truth, along side God's Word. You have accused me of having nothing. Can you at least make up your mind? Don't post I have nothing, and then accuse me of being the only one with the truth. The Bible is free for all to read and comment on.

Seriously, is God's Word that foreign to you, that you think I have invented it? You know the truth, you just deny it with your own private interpretation. You seem to be bashing RCC Christian orthodoxy quite well. Some of us feel the same way about your Protestant Christian orthodoxy. Both are just additional human theology, and not God's Word. No one is perfect in their knowledge, so go ahead and keep bashing people over the head with your own lack of understanding.
 

Timtofly

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You can't even answer questions, nor remember your own posts.

You said that the OT was fulfilled and made obsolete.

Again: Was the OT fulfilled and made obsolete by the NT?

If not, what has fulfilled and made obsolete the OT?
If I already answered, why do you keep asking.

Jesus has not set up His earthly throne to finish the 70th week as declared by Gabriel. In the midst of week of the 7th Trumpet, the Atonement Covenant will be confirmed.

That will determine the precise moment when Adam's punishment is over, and Israel, Daniel's people will have the full benefit of the promises in Daniel 9:24.

Both Covenants will be obsolete as written text. It will be written on the soul of every human after that point. There will not be a physical and spiritual death implemented on humanity, so any Covenant to that regard will no longer be necessary.
 

covenantee

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If I already answered, why do you keep asking.

Jesus has not set up His earthly throne to finish the 70th week as declared by Gabriel. In the midst of week of the 7th Trumpet, the Atonement Covenant will be confirmed.

That will determine the precise moment when Adam's punishment is over, and Israel, Daniel's people will have the full benefit of the promises in Daniel 9:24.

Both Covenants will be obsolete as written text. It will be written on the soul of every human after that point. There will not be a physical and spiritual death implemented on humanity, so any Covenant to that regard will no longer be necessary.
You're obviously off in your own oblivious hallucinatory cultic universe.

Thanks for the confirmation.
 

jeffweeder

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If I already answered, why do you keep asking.

Jesus has not set up His earthly throne to finish the 70th week as declared by Gabriel. In the midst of week of the 7th Trumpet, the Atonement Covenant will be confirmed.

That will determine the precise moment when Adam's punishment is over, and Israel, Daniel's people will have the full benefit of the promises in Daniel 9:24.

Both Covenants will be obsolete as written text. It will be written on the soul of every human after that point. There will not be a physical and spiritual death implemented on humanity, so any Covenant to that regard will no longer be necessary.
Tim,
You are oblivious to fact that its all about the blood when it comes to covenants. The atonement covenant therefore has already been confirmed as our Lords blood has already been shed.
The book of Hebrews is something you should be embracing...,

Heb 9

9 Now even the first covenant had regulations for divine worship and for the earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle (sacred tent) was put up, the outer one or first section, in which were the lampstand and the table with [its loaves of] the sacred showbread; this is called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second veil there was another tabernacle [the inner one or second section] known as the Holy of Holies, 4 having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. This contained a golden jar which held the manna, and the rod of Aaron that sprouted, and the [two stone] tablets of the covenant [inscribed with the Ten Commandments]; 5 and above the ark were the [golden] cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but we cannot now go into detail about these things.

6 Now when these things have been prepared in this way, the priests continually enter the outer [or first section of the] tabernacle [that is, the Holy Place] performing [their ritual acts of] the divine worship, 7 but into the second [inner tabernacle, the Holy of Holies], only the high priest enters [and then only] once a year, and never without [bringing a sacrifice of] blood, which he offers [as a substitutionary atonement] for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 By this the Holy Spirit signifies that the way into the Holy Place [the true Holy of Holies and the presence of God] has not yet been disclosed as long as the first or outer tabernacle is still standing [that is, as long as the Levitical system of worship remains a recognized institution], 9 for this [first or outer tabernacle] is a symbol [that is, an archetype or paradigm] for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which are incapable of perfecting the conscience and renewing the [inner self of the] worshiper. 10 For they [the gifts, sacrifices, and ceremonies] deal only with [clean and unclean] food and drink and various ritual washings, [mere] external regulations for the body imposed [to help the worshipers] until the time of reformation [that is, the time of the new order when Christ will establish the reality of what these things foreshadow—a better covenant].


11 But when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things to come [that is, true spiritual worship], He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not a part of this [material] creation. 12 He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption [that is, the salvation of all who personally believe in Him as Savior].

13 For if the sprinkling of [ceremonially] defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a [burnt] heifer is sufficient for the cleansing of the body, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal [Holy] Spirit willingly offered Himself unblemished [that is, without moral or spiritual imperfection as a sacrifice] to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works and lifeless observances to serve the ever living God?

15 For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment of] the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has taken place [as the payment] which redeems them from the sins committed under the obsolete first covenant.

16 For where there is a will and testament involved, the death of the one who made it must be established, 17 for a will and testament takes effect [only] at death, since it is never in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 So even the first covenant was not put in force without [the shedding of] blood. 19 For when every commandment in the Law had been read by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the calves and goats [which had been sacrificed], together with water and scarlet wool and with a bunch of hyssop, and he sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant [that seals and ratifies the agreement] which God ordained and commanded [me to deliver to] you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the containers and sacred utensils of worship with the blood. 22 In fact under the Law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness [neither release from sin and its guilt, nor cancellation of the merited punishment].

23 Therefore it was necessary for the [earthly] copies of the heavenly things to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves required far better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but [He entered] into heaven itself, now to appear in the very presence of God on our behalf; 25 nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer over and over since the foundation of the world; but now once for all at the consummation of the ages He has appeared and been publicly manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is appointed and destined for all men to die once and after this [comes certain] judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.
 
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covenantee

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Why is it only Amils that cut across all this blatant error? Orthodox Premils should be exposing this.
I concur, bro. But I think Orthodox Premil is a rare species today. They've almost all been "dispensatanized", as you would say.
 

covenantee

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Tim,
You are oblivious to fact that its all about the blood when it comes to covenants. The atonement covenant therefore has already been confirmed as our Lords blood has already been shed.
The book of Hebrews is something you should be embracing...,

Heb 9

9 Now even the first covenant had regulations for divine worship and for the earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle (sacred tent) was put up, the outer one or first section, in which were the lampstand and the table with [its loaves of] the sacred showbread; this is called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second veil there was another tabernacle [the inner one or second section] known as the Holy of Holies, 4 having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. This contained a golden jar which held the manna, and the rod of Aaron that sprouted, and the [two stone] tablets of the covenant [inscribed with the Ten Commandments]; 5 and above the ark were the [golden] cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but we cannot now go into detail about these things.

6 Now when these things have been prepared in this way, the priests continually enter the outer [or first section of the] tabernacle [that is, the Holy Place] performing [their ritual acts of] the divine worship, 7 but into the second [inner tabernacle, the Holy of Holies], only the high priest enters [and then only] once a year, and never without [bringing a sacrifice of] blood, which he offers [as a substitutionary atonement] for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 By this the Holy Spirit signifies that the way into the Holy Place [the true Holy of Holies and the presence of God] has not yet been disclosed as long as the first or outer tabernacle is still standing [that is, as long as the Levitical system of worship remains a recognized institution], 9 for this [first or outer tabernacle] is a symbol [that is, an archetype or paradigm] for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which are incapable of perfecting the conscience and renewing the [inner self of the] worshiper. 10 For they [the gifts, sacrifices, and ceremonies] deal only with [clean and unclean] food and drink and various ritual washings, [mere] external regulations for the body imposed [to help the worshipers] until the time of reformation [that is, the time of the new order when Christ will establish the reality of what these things foreshadow—a better covenant].


11 But when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things to come [that is, true spiritual worship], He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not a part of this [material] creation. 12 He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption [that is, the salvation of all who personally believe in Him as Savior].

13 For if the sprinkling of [ceremonially] defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a [burnt] heifer is sufficient for the cleansing of the body, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal [Holy] Spirit willingly offered Himself unblemished [that is, without moral or spiritual imperfection as a sacrifice] to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works and lifeless observances to serve the ever living God?

15 For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment of] the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has taken place [as the payment] which redeems them from the sins committed under the obsolete first covenant.

16 For where there is a will and testament involved, the death of the one who made it must be established, 17 for a will and testament takes effect [only] at death, since it is never in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 So even the first covenant was not put in force without [the shedding of] blood. 19 For when every commandment in the Law had been read by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the calves and goats [which had been sacrificed], together with water and scarlet wool and with a bunch of hyssop, and he sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant [that seals and ratifies the agreement] which God ordained and commanded [me to deliver to] you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the containers and sacred utensils of worship with the blood. 22 In fact under the Law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness [neither release from sin and its guilt, nor cancellation of the merited punishment].

23 Therefore it was necessary for the [earthly] copies of the heavenly things to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves required far better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but [He entered] into heaven itself, now to appear in the very presence of God on our behalf; 25 nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer over and over since the foundation of the world; but now once for all at the consummation of the ages He has appeared and been publicly manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is appointed and destined for all men to die once and after this [comes certain] judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.
So true, bro. But someone claiming to be the sole source of truth, to the exclusion of all orthodox Christianity, is completely devoid of the spiritual discernment necessary to understand and embrace Scriptural truth.

He represents the epitome of "private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20)
 
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WPM

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I concur, bro. But I think Orthodox Premil is a rare species today. They've almost all been "dispensatanized", as you would say.

I would say: rare online. They see the type of extremes that fellow Premils promote on these public forums and they probably stay away.
 

BreadOfLife

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How did we remove something that was not there? That is ridiculous! Protestants take their lead from the ancient Jews re their own Scriptures, something your Pope disagrees with. We are in keeping with their authorities through the centuries.

Your decaying Church has no answer to the truth. Your failure to address multiple Scriptures/issues here exposes the apostate nature of your institution.
It’s painfully-obvious that you haven’t actually READ any if my posts.

I already explained where YOUR OY Canon of Scripture came from – and if you don’t believe me, you can check it out for yourself. Since you didn’t read it before – here it is again . . .

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD – this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see almost 200 references to them.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). It was during THIS time that the Jewish Canon had still been an OPEN Canon during the life of Christ was closed.

So, your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

The NT contains almost 200 quotes and references to these 7 Deuterocaonical Books.
Here are some examples:

- Matt. 2:16
- Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.


- Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

- Eph. 6:13-17
- in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows
Wis. 5:17-20.

Don't be content to just walloiw in ignoirance.
Understand WHAT you beieve - and WHY you believe it .
. .
 

BreadOfLife

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Sorry, but Matthew 25:31 is after the Second Coming, and not for the church at all.

The church is already judged and enjoying Paradise, because the Cross was the judgment, God required for sin. That is why the thief entered Paradise that day, and Abraham's bosom was empty, that day.

Matthew 25:31 is for Jacob and Jacob's trouble during the first 6 Trumpets, only a remnant will be redeemed as sheep. The majority will be goats, tossed into the LOF.

That is a judgment for living unbelievers, to determine their eternal status. The LOF or reigning with Christ on earth, during the Millennium. Those people do not experience physical death. The goats are tossed alive into the LOF: soul, body, and spirit. The sheep are removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh and given God's permanent incorruptible physical body, the first resurrection without physical death, and they will never die the second death, that the goats were given.
Whether YOU believe the above to be true or not is irrelevant.

MY
position all along during this argument had been that there is indeed a Particular Judgement that happens immediately after death.

I have been inundated with opposing views stating everything from the idea that we “wait” somewhere in the afterlife for our judgement to the idea that we will either go to Heaven or Hell “automatically” - WITHOUT being judged.

BOTH of these positions are unbiblical nonsense.

In fact – the ONLY reason I brought up the Judgement in Matt, 25 was to show that even those I Christ will indeed be judged.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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My thought is that the conclusion that Paul's writings were scripture was retrospective.
when Paul wrote the letters, they were just that, letters. Not sure that he intended to pen scripture.
I feel certain that he was well aware of that. He wrote of things that had previously been a mystery (see Ephesians 3:1-6 and 1 Cor 15:51-52, for examples) and he knew that these mysteries and the other insights he had came from the Holy Spirit. I don't know how he could not have known that what he was writing would be considered scripture since he knew that what he was writing was inspired by God.

Right. I'm not opposed to a closed canon of scripture.
I am opposed to the idea that God is finished speaking to us.
His sheep hear his voice and follow.
Of course. As Christians we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and He speaks to us. What I don't believe is that He would reveal any new doctrines to us that aren't already taught in scripture, though.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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This has the mystery finished even before the 7th Trumpet sounds.

The celebration would be a week long event. You have everything celebrated, and going on for a week. Then at the last hour of the week, there is a quick note of a Trumpet, and it is over?

That is the same week, that Satan and angels are cast out of heaven. Then in the midst of that week Satan is allowed 42 months splitting the celebration in half. That means the 7th Trumpet does not ever sound, until all are dead after Armageddon. Then a short blast after all are dead. Then every one goes "home"?
Pure nonsense. That is all you ever have to share. I just don't get it. How do you come up with your nonsense? Explain the process to me.
 

WPM

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It’s painfully-obvious that you haven’t actually READ any if my posts.

I already explained where YOUR OY Canon of Scripture came from – and if you don’t believe me, you can check it out for yourself. Since you didn’t read it before – here it is again . . .

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD – this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see almost 200 references to them.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). It was during THIS time that the Jewish Canon had still been an OPEN Canon during the life of Christ was closed.

So, your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

The NT contains almost 200 quotes and references to these 7 Deuterocaonical Books.
Here are some examples:

- Matt. 2:16
- Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.


- Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

- Eph. 6:13-17
- in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows
Wis. 5:17-20.

Don't be content to just walloiw in ignoirance.
Understand WHAT you beieve - and WHY you believe it .
. .

Evangelical Protestants are not deceived by the lies and propaganda of the Roman church. This is all nonsense. You are twisting the scriptures to make them say whatever you want. That is a joke!

The whore of Babylon is crumbling.
 
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WPM

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Whether YOU believe the above to be true or not is irrelevant.

MY
position all along during this argument had been that there is indeed a Particular Judgement that happens immediately after death.

I have been inundated with opposing views stating everything from the idea that we “wait” somewhere in the afterlife for our judgement to the idea that we will either go to Heaven or Hell “automatically” - WITHOUT being judged.

BOTH of these positions are unbiblical nonsense.

In fact – the ONLY reason I brought up the Judgement in Matt, 25 was to show that even those I Christ will indeed be judged.

You invent terms and force them on the sacred Scriptures in order to support your error. Where does the Bible ever talk about "Particular Judgement"? You make it up as you go! The Cults do the exact same thing.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You said Satan's little season comes after the thousand expires, but also that time symbolized a thousand years is finished when the seventh angel begins to sound.
No, I did not say "that time symbolized a thousand years is finished when the seventh angel begins to sound". The order is very simple. First, the thousand years occurs (not a literal one thousand years but it has a beginning and ending) and it expires. At that point Satan is loosed for a little season. Then at the end of the little season the seventh angel sounds his trumpet at which point Jesus descends from heaven, the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs and we're all changed (1 Cor 15:51-52) and Jesus destroys His enemies followed by the judgment.

Look at what is described as happening at the sound of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. None of that occurs before Satan's little season and before the day Christ returns. The sounding of the seventh trumpet signals the return of Christ and the things that happen on the day He returns.

How can time, symbolized a thousand years be expired and Satan still have a little season of time?
That's what I asked you. That is not how I understand the thousand years.

If time shall be no longer when the seventh angel sounds, how can there still be a little season given to Satan when there is no more time?
There couldn't be. The seventh trumpet does not signal Satan's little season, it signals Christ's return and the things that happen after He descends from heaven. That is what you're not getting.

Could it be that the time in view here is a thousand symbolic years that have expired, but the little season given Satan is not included in that time, but separate from it?
Of course! That's what I've been saying all along.

How can Satan be loosed before time, symbolized a thousand years expires?
Why do you keep asking me this? I don't believe that he will be loosed before the thousand years expires. The scripture (Rev 20:3,7) clearly says that he will be loosed after the thousand years expires.

Rev 9 makes no mention of Satan being loosed from the pit. It describes only those locusts ascending out of the pit and that "they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." While I agree this king can be none other than depicting Satan, I cannot agree that Satan is set free here.
But, it describes the pit as being opened at that point. Why would only the locusts be loosed at that point, but not their king as well?

He will not be set free until time, symbolized a thousand years expires.
You keep saying "time, symbolized a thousand years". What does that mean? It comes across as if you're saying time itself is symbolized as a thousand years. But, in that case, how can any time, such as Satan's little season, follow time itself?

The locust are not given to "hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." But only to torment those who have NOT the seal of God in their foreheads, they are not permitted to kill them, but only to torment them for five months.
Yes. And what is your point here exactly? What is your understanding of who the locusts represent? I believe they represent fallen angels. Do you agree?

After a thousand years expire Satan's little season is not given for him to torment unbelievers, it is given him to assemble together Gog and Magog to battle against the saints of God, the Church on earth. Instead of battle he is devoured by the fire that comes down from God out of heaven.
I have to tell Premils this all the time and don't expect to have to explain this to an Amil, but two passages that speaks about the same event do not have to contain the same details about that event. Just because the two passages don't have the same details doesn't mean they can't be about the same event. There isn't anything in one passage that contradicts the other.

I understand this is what you believe. How can Satan have a little season after the seventh angel begins to sound time, symbolized a thousand years shall be no more?
Apparently, you don't understand what I believe about this because your question does not apply to what I believe. I do not believe that Satan's little season begins after the seventh angel sounds and I have said that multiple times now. I believe that the angel sounds on the day Christ returns which will occur on the last day of Satan's little season.

rwb said:
Satan can only have a little season after the seventh angel begins to sound if the time that shall be no longer is a thousand symbolic years of time, and after that Satan is given a little season, that is not included with a thousand years.
You are thinking that Satan's little season occurs after the seventh angel begins to sound, but I disagree with that.

rwb said:
The three passages below are depicting the same thing. That is the sounding of the seventh angel. These are not the only passages depicting the days when the seventh angel begins to sound. We are changed in a moment and twinkling of an eye at the last/seventh trump. But since the seventh trumpet sounding time shall be no longer in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, in my opinion indicates we shall be raised and changed in a moment during Satan's little season, after time, symbolized a thousand years has expired.
Raised and changed DURING Satan's little season? I'm sorry, but I can't make any sense of that at all. You do understand that the dead in Christ will be raised on the day Christ returns, don't you? What you're saying here would be like saying that Christ returns during Satan's little season. Huh? No, He will return at the every end of Satan's little season. His return is what will mark the end of Satan's little season because He is the One who will be sending fire down from heaven to destroy all His enemies, as portrayed in Revelation 20:9 and written about in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

rwb said:
Because that's when Satan assembles together Gog & Magog attempting to prevent the Kingdom of God from being completed. But rather then victory of war Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the false prophets are, and fire of God comes down out of heaven and destroys everything living upon this earth.
You think Satan gathering people together across the earth all happens on the same day Christ returns? How can that be described as "a little season"?

rwb said:
Satan's little season does not follow Christ's return. It ushers in the return of Christ, because it is during his little season after the thousand years expire that we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and Satan is utterly destroyed with the return of Christ.
You're saying DURING his little season, but you really mean that Christ returns at the end of his little season, right? You're wording things in a confusing way.

rwb said:
This will only make sense for you if you can understand that after the sounding of the seventh angel only time, symbolized a thousand years has come to an end. Then Satan gets his little season in the days following the final trumpet blast.
That doesn't make sense to me at all because Jesus returns and the dead in Christ are raised at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet. Clearly, Satan's little season, even if it was only a few days, cannot follow Christ's return.

rwb said:
These Old Covenant saints must wait a "little season". Wait for what? To be under the altar indicates they died in faith, believing a Messiah would come to rescue them from the curse of death that came through sin. The blood of Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world is what they must wait for. There will be more of their brothers and Christ Himself who must be slain as they were, before they are sealed with the life giving Spirit of Christ.

How long is the little season they must await? The little season for them could be counted from the birth of Christ, and Satan being cast out, to the cross and resurrection. But I have come to believe the little season began when Christ came in the power of the Holy Spirit through His anointing at His baptism to the cross and resurrection. In other words the little season for which these Old Covenant saints had to wait to ascend to heaven is from Christ's anointing to His cross and resurrection, appx 3 1/2 years.
I wasn't asking for your interpretation of Revelation 6:9-11, I was only asking how long you thought the "little season" referenced there would last. So, you say about 3 1/2 years. Yet, you seemingly have Satan's little season only lasting a few days. Is that right? If so, why would a little season be 3 1/2 years in one situation but only a few days in another?
 
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covenantee

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It’s painfully-obvious that you haven’t actually READ any if my posts.

I already explained where YOUR OY Canon of Scripture came from – and if you don’t believe me, you can check it out for yourself. Since you didn’t read it before – here it is again . . .

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD – this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see almost 200 references to them.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). It was during THIS time that the Jewish Canon had still been an OPEN Canon during the life of Christ was closed.

So, your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

The NT contains almost 200 quotes and references to these 7 Deuterocaonical Books.
Here are some examples:

- Matt. 2:16
- Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.


- Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

- Eph. 6:13-17
- in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows
Wis. 5:17-20.

Don't be content to just walloiw in ignoirance.
Understand WHAT you beieve - and WHY you believe it .
. .
Still awaiting the rationalization for Bellarmine's deification of the pope.

Thank God for the Reformation.
 

BreadOfLife

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Evangelical Protestants are not deceived by the lies and propaganda of the Roman church. This is all nonsense. You are twisting the scriptures to make them say whatever you want. That is a joke!

The whore of Babylon is crumbling.
Another empty and impotent tirade wth ZERO evidence to the contrary.

Why ar you so afraid? If you don't believe me - look it up for yourself.
Read for yourself how the OPEN Jewish Canon of Scripture was CLOSED at Jabneh in the 2nd centiry - LONG after Jesus ascended to the Father and the destruction of Jerusalem.
Read for yourself how they chose to delete those 7 Books and portions of Daniel and Esther.
Read for yourself how Rabbi Akiva proclaimed a man named Simon Kojhbar as the "True Messiah.
Read for yourself how this SAME man (Akiva) is the one who advocated for deleting those books.

A FALSE PROPHET.
That's who you've chosen to follow . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You invent terms and force them on the sacred Scriptures in order to support your error. Where does the Bible ever talk about "Particular Judgement"? You make it up as you go! The Cults do the exact same thing.
Ummmm, where does the Bible mention the following, my hypocrite friend -
- Accepting Jesus as "Personal Lord and Savior"

- "Altar Calls"
- A "Pre-Trip Rapture"
- Sola Scriptura (Bible Alone)
- Sola Fide (Faith Alone)

- “Once saved, always saved”
- "Incarnation"

- "Bible"

Does that mean YOUR sect is a "cult"??
 

BreadOfLife

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Still awaiting the rationalization for Bellarmine's deification of the pope.

Thank God for the Reformation.
It's irrelevant.

Ut doesn't matter if Bellarmine thought the Pope was Mickey Mouse.
He wasn't a Pope - NOR did he possess the charism of infallibility. These aren't official teachings of the Catholic Church - but ONE man's opinopn.

I like the way you completely RAN AWAY from the historical facts about your Protestant OT Canon, though. Good hob . . .
 
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