22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

Maybe I'm a little slow or perhaps dense? But I've yet to read a biblical refutation of what I have said.

Giftings within the Church of Christ finish when He comes. 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 parallels, “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail [Gr. katargeo or ‘be done away’]; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away [Gr. katargeo or ‘be done away’]. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect [Gr. teleios] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

The Greek word teleios (Strong’s 5046) which comes from the Greek word telos (Strong’s 5046), which we are very familiar with meaning ‘the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid)’. It is speaking about the end – the consummation. In fact, the all-consummating coming of Christ.

At this final event prophecies, tongues and the gift of knowledge shall all vanish away. Why? We don’t need prophecies, tongues and supernatural knowledge anymore as we will have full understanding being perfect. However, “Charity never faileth.” A billion years into eternity we will still need love. We will love Christ throughout eternity. Love will never cease.

Today:

(1) We know in part
(2) We see through a glass, darkly

Then (face to face):

(1) “That which is in part shall be done away”
(2) “when that which is perfect is come … then shall I know even as also I am known.”

When are we face to face? Face to face with who?

Revelation 22 describes the eternal state after the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. we learn: “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.”

When we see Jesus face to face, the temporal, imperfect, that which in part and all corruption will be removed, and the perfect state will be introduced “And there shall be no more curse.” When we see Him face to face we will be perfected. Without that change we could not survive His glorious presence. Never again will His glory be veiled. The next time He appears His glory will destroyed anything that is not glorified.

I John 3:1-2 says, “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

The second coming of the Lord is here again identified as the moment when the creature experiences the last aspect of redemption and is finally glorified and released from the “the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” Presently, “it doth not yet appear what we shall be,” the reason being, “now we see through a glass … now I know in part” however, when we see Him “face to face … then shall I know even as also I am known” (1 Corinthians 13:12). We therefore have that wonderful assurance “that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” The awful present curse of the bondage of corruption will be finally eliminated and the final eternal righteous state will be fully introduced. T namely g people that ias alluding ration re I get my income.nt out my property rent-free f the current position. of the timPaul also identifies the time of the subduing or subordinating of “all things unto himself” with the occasion of the second coming, which expressly sees the final act of redemption and the fulfilment of the glorification process. This is unquestionably the conclusion of history – the “times of restitution (or reconstitution) of all things.”

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

When Jesus returns there will no longer be any need of prophets to predict the future; there will be no need for the gift of discernment. We will have full knowledge or full discernment. We will have arrived in eternity and “the mystery of God should be finished.” We shall have “come ... unto a perfect man.” God’s people will be glorified and arrayed in perfection. There will be no schisms in the body of Christ and the veil that comes with life will be removed in the afterlife.

The whole import and wording of the remainder of the passage perfectly supports the King James Version rendering and confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, which says, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be etelesthee (or) finished.” It should be noted that the word etelesthee is a very strong climactic word that is rightly translated ‘finished’ in this reading and is consistently interpreted: completed, concluded, expired and accomplished.

We can therefore clearly assume that this is no minor insignificant occasion, but some glorious concluding event. It is of such a monumental magnitude that its arrival ensures “the mystery of God should be finished.” Moreover, its appearance also finally brings about “that there should be time no longer.”

Undoubtedly, there is only one significant impending event that is repeatedly advanced in Scripture that causes the final termination of the plan and purpose of God for “time,” and which concludes the mystery of God forever, namely the one final future all-consummating coming of Christ. This event sees the conclusion of the plan of God and the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection/judgment. It is undoubtedly a climactic event.

 

[rwb]

(1) All the detail around the sounding of the 7th trumpet is final and climactic. You must ignore all that.

Why do you argue I'm ignoring that?

(2) Check out all the other end-time trumpet passages and the final blast ushers in the sudden and climactic appearing of Christ. None of them usher in Satan's little season. That is nonsensical.

Yes the seventh trumpet does usher in Satan's "little season", as well as Christ's climatic appearing. Again, what is the mystery of God that is finished when this time shall be no longer?

(3) The operation of the 7th angel in the text is not one day, but days preceding the coming of the Lord. This sees the customary preceding natural signs in the sky and upon earth (Revelation 16:18), the judgment and downfall of Babylon (Revelation 16:19) and then the glorious return of Christ

Your first sentence is what I've consistently stated. The climax of the days when the seventh angel begins to sound will without doubt be the climatic return of Christ on the very last day of these days, BUT that shall come AFTER God's wrath is poured upon the ungodly, precisely the moment in time when the saints are caught up immortal at His coming again.

(4) There is a difference between the voice of the 7th angel (which I believe refers to his time of assignment just before and up to the end) and the trumpet blast (which introduces Christ's appearing).

Okay. But you do believe that before the appearing of Christ Satan will be given his little season?

(5) The 7th angel/trumpet doesn't remotely mention a thousand years. Your linkage is wrong. It does not add up.

No it doesn't! But again, John does mention the mystery that shall be finished, and that my friend does indeed link to time that shall be no longer, and a thousand years. We don't read the Bible verses in isolation if we want to get the full understanding. I know you already know this so forgive me if I have offended you.

(6) Chronos in Scripture does not = 1000 years, it equals the time from the beginning to the end. You much change that.

Yes, a thousand years does indeed equal time! Not all time, but time when saints live and reign with Christ during their lifetimes, and time symbolized a thousand years God has given the Church to build the Kingdom through the proclamation of the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit.

(7) As Eric so ably outlined, Satan's little season at the end kicks in with the fifth trumpet. That is when the abyss/bottomless pit is opened for the final and widespread deception of man.

The abyss might indeed be opened in time, but Satan shall not be loosed until time, symbolized a thousand years expires. That shall not happen until the days when the seventh angel begins to sound.

You have not addressed/refuted any of this. You have ducked around it as if it doesn't exist. This is not how you normally function. It is not how Amils act, apart from Truth7v7.

It is you who has refused to answer questions I've asked. I've ducked around nothing and am offended that you would say I have. I especially do not appreciate being compared to others. It seems your opinion of other Amils is congenial only as long as they agree verbatim with you. I think its time to end this particular discussion with you, because I don't like the thought of offending you any more than I obviously already have.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Perhaps if I paraphrase my thoughts on this passage of Scripture, who knows it may help???

There shall be no more time allotted for the saints to proclaim the Gospel unto the world during the time (days) the angel blows the seventh trumpet indicating the Kingdom of God is finished/complete. (Rev 10:6-7 according to my understanding of the verses)

It is very specifically this particular time that John writes "a thousand years", not ALL time, because there is still a little season of time for Satan after this particular time expires. How do I know this with certainty? Because it is during this specific time "a thousand years" the spiritual Kingdom of God is built as the Gospel is sent unto all the Gentile nations of the world through the power of the Holy Spirit. Once the seventh trumpet sounds the time for building the Kingdom shall be no longer, because the time for Satan to be loosed for a little season has arrived. At that time all the inhabitants of the earth will belong either to Gog and Magog, or they will be the camp of the saints and the beloved city. Before the wrath of God is poured out upon the whole world, the saints will be caught up and changed to meet the Lord in the air.

Again, I disagree with the idea of the seventh trumpet sounding for multiple days rather than sounding quickly and being followed by things that happen quickly such as the change of our bodies (1 Cor 15:51-52). We can't possibly agree on the rest when we disagree on how long it takes to sound the seventh trumpet.

Can you show me anything that is written regarding the seventh and last trumpet that references Satan's little season in any way? I don't see any reference to it in Revelation 10:6-7, 1 Cor 15:51-52 or Revelation 11:15-18.

 

[WPM]

It is you who has refused to answer questions I've asked. I've ducked around nothing and am offended that you would say I have. I especially do not appreciate being compared to others. It seems your opinion of other Amils is congenial only as long as they agree verbatim with you. I think its time to end this particular discussion with you, because I don't like the thought of offending you any more than I obviously already have.

While i disagree with this. I have removed any comparisons in my post. It is not my heart to offend you. I respect you too much. My apologies if I worded this offensively.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you argue I'm ignoring that?

I'm arguing the same thing and the reason is because it doesn't allow any time for Satan's little season unless you think Satan's little season covers a very short amount of time. If it doesn't involve a very short amount of time then it can't be said that the seventh trumpet is climactic. If it starts to sound but then it takes years before everything that the trumpet is signaling to occur then that doesn't seem very climactic to me.

Yes, a thousand years does indeed equal time! Not all time, but time when saints live and reign with Christ during their lifetimes, and time symbolized a thousand years God has given the Church to build the Kingdom through the proclamation of the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit.

This is worded in such a confusing way. You say a thousand years equals time, but not all time. I can't comprehend what that means. Can you explain that?

The abyss might indeed be opened in time, but Satan shall not be loosed until time, symbolized a thousand years expires. That shall not happen until the days when the seventh angel begins to sound.

What does "time, symbolized a thousand years" mean? It comes across as if you are equating time with a thousand years. But, we know that can't be the case because we know that a little season of time follows the thousand years. So, I think you might want to consider coming up with a less confusing way of referring to the thousand years as you understand it. Just a suggestion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That could well be? During Satan's little season the lines in the sand will be drawn. One shall either be for Christ or for Satan when Christ appears the second time.

Once He appears that is true, but I do not see any scripture to support the idea that salvation will be cut off for a period of time before He returns. What other scripture, besides your understanding of Revelation 20, can you use to support this idea?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I really don't see any differences that would affect doctrine within these versions and the KJV. They all say in the days the seventh angel sounds.

No, they don't. Please read them again. The other translations talk about the days when the angel is about to sound. To say that the angel is about to sound the seventh trumpet is different than saying the angel is actually starting to sound the seventh trumpet. If he's about to sound that means he hasn't actually sounded it yet, but is preparing to sound the seventh trumpet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

• “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.”
• “he shall reign for ever and ever” – not a thousand years or for a measurable time-span.
• The time of God’s “wrath is come.”
• We have a general judgment where Christ will “give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints” and judge the wicked at the same time. He will “destroy them which destroy the earth.”
• “the mystery of God” will be “finished.”
• “time” shall be “no longer.”

It is hard to see how the Holy Spirit could have made it more final. All the bases are covered. All the boxes are ticked. The finishing of “the mystery of God” at the “sound of the last trumpet (trumpet 7) ushers in the end of time (chronos) and the beginning of eternity.

Exactly. Where can Satan's little season fit in there? I don't believe it can. It has to occur before the seventh trumpet sounds, not after the seventh trumpet starts to sound.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. Where can Satan's little season fit in there? I don't believe it can. It has to occur before the seventh trumpet sounds, not after the seventh trumpet starts to sound.

Tis true. Yes!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe I'm a little slow or perhaps dense? But I've yet to read a biblical refutation of what I have said.

Let me try another angle to this. When exactly in relation to the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet, do you believe the following will occur:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

[rwb]

While i disagree with this. I have removed any comparisons in my post. It is not my heart to offend you. I respect you too much. My apologies if I worded this offensively.

No problem Paul, and thank you. I also have a great deal of respect for your knowledge of Scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No problem Paul, and thank you. I also have a great deal of respect of your knowledge of Scripture.

Let me make it clear that I have a lot of respect for you and this one particular thing we disagree on is not that big of a deal. But, it's interesting to discuss.

 

[rwb]

Again, I disagree with the idea of the seventh trumpet sounding for multiple days rather than sounding quickly and being followed by things that happen quickly such as the change of our bodies (1 Cor 15:51-52). We can't possibly agree on the rest when we disagree on how long it takes to sound the seventh trumpet.

Can you show me anything that is written regarding the seventh and last trumpet that references Satan's little season in any way? I don't see any reference to it in Revelation 10:6-7, 1 Cor 15:51-52 or Revelation 11:15-18.

I don't mean to imply the angel sounds for multiple days, but that multiple days are involved with the sounding, just as we find with every other sounding of the first six trumpets. This multiple days usher in the last day when Christ returns and all His enemies destroyed.

The reason I connected the sounding of the seventh trumpet with Satan's little season is because when this specific time shall be no longer is also when the mystery of God is fulfilled. If the mystery fulfilled is the Kingdom of God being complete, then it is connected to a thousand years and Satan's little season. Because it is during this time the saints are saved, and the time when we live and reign with Christ on earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't mean to imply the angel sounds for multiple days, but that multiple days are involved with the sounding, just as we find with every other sounding of the first six trumpets. This multiple days usher in the last day when Christ returns and all His enemies destroyed.

The reason I connected the sounding of the seventh trumpet with Satan's little season is because when this specific time shall be no longer is also when the mystery of God is fulfilled. If the mystery fulfilled is the Kingdom of God being complete, then it is connected to a thousand years and Satan's little season. Because it is during this time the saints are saved, and the time when we live and reign with Christ on earth.

So, we're basically in disagreement with what happens after the angel sounds the seventh trumpet. We know the things that are explicitly mentioned as occurring after it sounds, as described in 1 Cor 15:51-52, Rev 10:6-7 and Rev 11:15-18. So, you are concluding that Satan's little season occurs after it sounds implicitly.

So, if you answer the question I asked in post 8,090 then that will help give me an idea of what exactly you see happening after the seventh trumpet sounds and in what order. Again, to me, everything that happens after the seventh trumpet sounds happens very quickly, if 1 Cor 15:51-52 is any indication. But, I don't see any way of concluding that Satan's little season can be something that happens very quickly.

 

[BreadOfLife]

More petty arguments. More evasive posts. You obviously have nothing on the true Faith. The Bible constantly talks about faith in Christ. Buy a Bible and read the NT. It describes Jesus as "Lord" and "Savior." Sorry you reject that. Sorry that He is not personal to you.

Sorry He is a distant unfaithful god with a big stick looking the first opportunity to cast men into purgatory. Sad that he is one strike and your out. Sad that the Bible is not enough for you and that you need to add to it! Sorry you are deluded that faith in Christ is not sufficient for salvation.

I do not use the term “once saved, always saved.” I do not use the term "Altar Calls." I reject the "Pre-Trib Rapture." I see "predestinate" (Romans 8:29, 30), "election" (Romans 9:11, 11:5, 7, 28, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, and 2 Peter 1:10), “elect” ( Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9, 22, Matthew 24:22, 24, 31, Mark 13:20, 22, 27, 18:7, Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, 2 Tim 5:21, 2 Tim 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:6, 2 John 1:1, and 13), “eternal life” (Matthew 19:16, Mark 10:17, 30, Luke 10:25, 18:18, John 3:15, 5:39, 6:54, 68, 10:28, 17:2, Acts 13:48, Romans 2:7, 5:21, 6:23, 1 Tim 6:12, 19, Titus 1:2, 3:7, 1 John 1:2, 2:25, 3:15, 5:11, 13, 20, and Jude 1:21), “life eternal” (Matthew 25:46, John 4:36, 12:25, and 17:3), “everlasting life” (Daniel 12:2, Matthew 19:29, John 3:16, 36, 4:14, 5:24, 6:27, 40, 47, Acts 13:46, Romans 6:22), “everlasting salvation" (Isaiah 45:17), "eternal salvation" (Hebrews 5:9), "eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12), "eternal inheritance" (Hebrews 9:16) and "everlasting consolation" (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17) in the Bible. These are all biblical terms that Romanism hates. It exposes their false salvation and their manipulation of the people with their false gospel.

The word Bible (biblos) is found throughout the New Testament. In fact, there are 16 references (Matthew 1:1, Mark 12:26, Luke 3:4, 20:42, Acts 1:20, 7:42, Philippians 4:3, Revelation 3:5, 17:8 (X2), 20:12 (X2), 20:15, 22:19 (X2).

It would help if you actually read the Bible before running off your mouth.

Time for a Bible Lesson and a Linguistics Lesson . . .

First of all – what I lusted was but a small sample of anti-Catholic hypocrisy. You guys whine about “Catholic” terms like “Eucharist” or “Particular Judgement” not being found in Scripture – but you’re perfectly okay with Protestant non-Biblical terms. If I had a dime for every Evangelical Protestant who told me that I must “Accept Jesus Christ” as my “Personal Lord and Savior” to be saved – I’d be a RISH man. Too bad the BIBLE doesn’t say that . . .

Oh – and as for “Bible” – it’s NOT in the Bible. The Greek term, βιβλοσ that you referenced in verses like Matt. 1:1, Mark 12:26, Luke 3:4, 20:42, etc., pertains to a written record or a book. It is where we get our word “BIBLE”, etymologically – not directly. There is NO word for “Bible” in the Bible.

Finally – you can list ALL of the verses that describe “Eternal Life”- and it is STILL not a blanket guarantee.

The guarantee of Eternal life is for those who ENDURE IN FAITH.. The Bible also WARNS that the faithful – born-again believers - can FALL AWAY and be LOST by their OWN doing:
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

What would REALLY help here is for YOU to do your homework before responding next time . . .

 

[rwb]

'm arguing the same thing and the reason is because it doesn't allow any time for Satan's little season unless you think Satan's little season covers a very short amount of time. If it doesn't involve a very short amount of time then it can't be said that the seventh trumpet is climactic. If it starts to sound but then it takes years before everything that the trumpet is signaling to occur then that doesn't seem very climactic to me.

I don't know how long Satan is given a little season. I can only surmise through the Concordance that it's a very small amount of time. And surely you do not doubt that the earth during this time shall experience great climatic events as Satan, using Gog & Magog attempt to keep the Kingdom of God from being complete. I believe the following commence quickly within the days the seventh angel begins to sound. First and foremost all who shall be saved have spiritually entered and completed the Kingdom of God. Secondly, Satan is set free and given a little season, believing he can prevent the Kingdom of God from being complete, he goes after and surrounds the Kingdom of God on earth, the Church. Finally, we see the appearing of Christ in the clouds, and the saints are all raised up and changed to be with Christ immortal (physically alive) forever. The final climatic blow for Satan and his kingdom is utter destruction by fire.

 

[WPM]

Your first sentence is what I've consistently stated. The climax of the days when the seventh angel begins to sound will without doubt be the climatic return of Christ on the very last day of these days, BUT that shall come AFTER God's wrath is poured upon the ungodly, precisely the moment in time when the saints are caught up immortal at His coming again.

But where is Satan's little season in the picture with any of these other texts? Nowhere! You force that into the equation where it is not mentioned. It is not in Revelation 10 or 11. You place it there where it does not belong. Read these other passages and let them interpret the 7th trumpet for you. Then look at the climactic detail in Revelation 10 and 11 and you will see that they all beautifully correlate to give us a picture of the end of the world, the end of time and the end of the mystery of God.

We should recognize: the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation 10 and 11 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. Scripture carefully knits together to show a climactic coming of Christ at the end. Interesting all these references show us that His return is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Time for a Bible Lesson and a Linguistics Lesson . . .

First of all – what I lusted was but a small sample of anti-Catholic hypocrisy. You guys whine about “Catholic” terms like “Eucharist” or “Particular Judgement” not being found in Scripture

Are you playing dumb or...? No one cares if you use those terms. At least, they shouldn't. It's what those terms represent in Catholic doctrine that people disagree with. No one should make a big deal about what terms people want to use to describe their beliefs.

 

[rwb]

This is worded in such a confusing way. You say a thousand years equals time, but not all time. I can't comprehend what that means. Can you explain that?

How can it symbolize all time? Saints don't live and reign with Christ for all time, but only during their lives on earth. It is time that began with the first advent of Christ, and concludes when the Kingdom of God is complete, or as John writes the mystery of God that should be finished. The little season of time given to Satan is not counted with this time given to build the Kingdom but comes after this specific time is complete.

What does "time, symbolized a thousand years" mean? It comes across as if you are equating time with a thousand years. But, we know that can't be the case because we know that a little season of time follows the thousand years. So, I think you might want to consider coming up with a less confusing way of referring to the thousand years as you understand it. Just a suggestion.

John writes a thousand years of living and reigning with Christ. If the saints live and reign with Christ throughout all time why write it as a thousand years? The saints live and reign with Christ during their lifetimes, and whether they live and reign with Christ for one day or one hundred years in life, it is counted symbolically as a thousand years. After this symbolic time given to live and reign with Christ is finished, the spiritual Kingdom of God complete, then Satan too will have his time for a little season.

 

[WPM]

Time for a Bible Lesson and a Linguistics Lesson . . .

First of all – what I lusted was but a small sample of anti-Catholic hypocrisy. You guys whine about “Catholic” terms like “Eucharist” or “Particular Judgement” not being found in Scripture – but you’re perfectly okay with Protestant non-Biblical terms. If I had a dime for every Evangelical Protestant who told me that I must “Accept Jesus Christ” as my “Personal Lord and Savior” to be saved – I’d be a RISH man. Too bad the BIBLE doesn’t say that . . .

Oh – and as for “Bible” – it’s NOT in the Bible. The Greek term, βιβλοσ that you referenced in verses like Matt. 1:1, Mark 12:26, Luke 3:4, 20:42, etc., pertains to a written record or a book. It is where we get our word “BIBLE”, etymologically – not directly. There is NO word for “Bible” in the Bible.

Finally – you can list ALL of the verses that describe “Eternal Life”- and it is STILL not a blanket guarantee.

The guarantee of Eternal life is for those who ENDURE IN FAITH.. The Bible also WARNS that the faithful – born-again believers - can FALL AWAY and be LOST by their OWN doing:
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

What would REALLY help here is for YOU to do your homework before responding next time . . .

I did not say it was a guarantee for false professors, false teachers or idolaters. It is a guarantee for genuine born again believers.

Jesus says in John 10:26-29, rebuking the false professors, "ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

The questions all need to ask is:

Is your confidence built upon Him, His Word and what He has done for you or is it built upon you, what you have done for Him, and your ability to save yourself?
Who keeps us, God or ourselves?
Is it your grip on Him that you are putting your hope in or His grip on you?

Jesus said in Matthew 7:24-27

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Sand is not a good foundation. So the man described in this parable is crazy if he thinks his building is going to survive. I believe the Rock here represents Christ, and the sand represents self. The choice for every human is either self or Christ. My problem with your doctrine is that it causes men to put their confidence in themselves, what they have supposedly done for Him and in them keeping themselves.

NKJV says of 1 Corinthians 3:11, “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

The crucial question for man is: Is your faith truly built upon a Rock or is it built upon sand?

· A house properly built upon the Rock stands firm in the midst of adversity.
· The house built upon the sand falls apart.

Christ wants to be your security.
Christ wants to be your strength.
Christ wants to be the source of your happiness.
Christ wants to be your direction.
Christ wants to be your hope.
Christ wants to be your future.

If Christ is not your foundation you will be constantly defeated, discouraged, deflated and depressed. God is looking us to be dependent upon Him and His commands: our flesh wants to operate independent of God and His commands. Remember sin is basically living a life independent from God. It is doing your own thing. Which describes you? If your foundation is not Christ you have built your life upon sand, and one day you are going to see how foolish you are. But it will be too late!