22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Timtofly]

According to you, but, not according to the Bible.

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The angel said of the first aspect relating to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, in the first seven weeks, “the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
(3) The third part (1 week) commences with the start of Christ’s earthly ministry and sees the crucifixion half way through it (3 ½ yrs). The other 3 ½ yrs saw the Church receive its baptism of fire at Pentecost and enter into the fulfilment of advancing the Gospel – the nations now being open to the Gospel, unlike before.

The question the futurists must answer is: is there any division in time between the 7th and 8th weeks?

The answer, of course, is a categorical NO!

Then, what scriptural warrant is there for, in unprecedented manner, decapitating this harmonious cohesive Messianic prophecy, aimlessly and indefinitely projecting the final week 2000 years+ into the unknown to a supposed end-time 7-year period, when it was perfectly fulfilled in the life and time of our Lord’s ministry, especially when there is absolutely NO corroborated in the New Testament for this 70th week gap-theory. As we have already stated, probably, the most distasteful aspect of this corrupt teaching is how they corruptly attribute it to anti-Christ at the end when it explicitly relates to Christ and His atonement 2000 years ago? To be honest, with this form of hermeneutics you could potentially corrupt any Old Testament passage and apply it to whatever time-period or matter one wishes.

The text does not in any way demand a gap; the Futurists unilaterally (without any scriptural warrant and for his own reason) chooses to insert one there in order to support his unsound theology. Those who do or condone such are unquestionably gap-theorists.

The text does demand – “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy” (Daniel 9:24).

These 6 elements must therefore be fulfilled (1) in Messiah, and (2) must come mid-way through the final week. The desolation is not within the 70 weeks, it is the visible result of the fulfilment of numbers 1-6 in the midst of the week i.e. the rendering of the temple’s former use obsolete.

What is the greater abomination, rejecting the once all-sufficient sacrifice of Calvary, as the Jews evidently did (and are doing), or abolishing or rejecting any idolatrous animal sacrifices in an imaginary temple? The Pretrib scenario is fanciful anyway as the temple has been (and is being) built – Christ’s body.

The “overspreading of abominations” was the rebellious idolatrous continuing of the temple sacrifices by the Jews after they were abolished at Calvary (1/2 way through the final week). And despite God allowing them time to repent in the intervening 40-year period (AD 30-AD 70), they stubbornly rebelled. The blasphemous continuing of the old order – the abolished (imperfect) sacrifices – occasioned the destruction of the temple – 40 being a perfect probationary period. When the practicing of the temple sacrifices had reached their allotted time-span, God destroyed them and the temple.

All according to you. You totally ignore other Scripture, and develope your own opinion as fact. Revelation 10 declares time over at the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 11 declares Jesus as King.

I am not a futurist. Just pointing out Scripture.

There is no verse that states within.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,"

Last time I checked 7 plus 62 is 69, not 70. The only thing promised is Messiah cut off after 69 weeks. Besides Jesus being the 70th week is Jesus fulfilling both Christ and King in the 70 weeks. In is within those 70 weeks.

But Gabriel does not frame it that way. You are the one demanding your opinion being forced into the passage. Gabriel frames it as after 69 weeks, not within 69 nor 70 consecutive weeks.

The determination of 70 weeks is broken into 7 and 62 already. Placing the 70th week does not contradict Gabriel's point. It only points out the flaw in your own opinion you force onto the text. If Gabriel had not already broken the time into 7 and 62 weeks, you may have a point. You are fighting Scripture for your continuous time frame of 70 weeks.

Paul already points out there was a hold on Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. The promise was not given to the Gentiles. It was given to Israel. The Trumpets do not deal with Gentiles. They deal with Israel. Even the AoD was not instigated by Israel, as you claim. The AoD is always an act of a Gentile.

When the veil was torn at the point of Jesus declaring it is finished, there could no longer be an AoD in that temple. It was no longer Holy. So the Jews continued usage of the temple was not blasphemy, nor the AoD. There was no AoD in 70AD for the same reason. Continued usage was rather pointless, but not a defilement. God literally gave them their desires and the innocent blood of Jesus was on their hands and the hands of their children and grandchildren. The Jews brought on their own desolation and destruction.

 

[Timtofly]

Answer my question. Where did I say that?



The day of the Lord has not arrived yet. It is the day that Jesus comes. This tells everyone how ignorant you are of Amillennialism.



OK, if all of the righteous are glorified at the second coming, and all the wicked are destroyed, who is this imaginary third group that you invent that overrun your future millennium?

So Revelation 20:4 is a future event after the Second Coming, and there is a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ?

I thought you claim Revelation 20 is a recap of the time between the first century and the Second Coming?

You can make your point now.

Why do I have to look up a quote where you claim the future millennium is a bust, goat infested, and sin infested? Why would I make that up?

The Day of the Lord is the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. It comes with a total destruction and restoration of the works of man on earth. It is the implementation of Daniel 9:24 by the end of the 7th Trumpet.

I know the Day of the Lord has not arrived. You are the one changing Revelation 20, not me. A Day with the Lord is as 1,000 years. So this coming 1,000 years is as a Day with the Lord. It is not complicated. Revelation 20 is the Day of the Lord.

I do not have to imagine anything. Revelation 20:4. Matthew 13. Matthew 25. After the Second Coming, Jesus hand picks those who will live during the Millennium. Those beheaded get there by choosing to chop their head off. Do you imagine they do not have their heads chopped off? Some do as they are just symbolic of being spiritually in Christ. The claim is they are only martyred souls without bodies for an indefinite period of time, according to many Amil.

 

[Timtofly]

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


Lots of righteousness was reigning already 2,000 years ago.

If it wasn't everlasting righteousness, when did it end?

Does that cover evey human currently alive? Does it cover all of creation? Would you be comfortable living with a serial killer, because they exercise righteousness at the same time they kill people?

 

[jeffweeder]

Amil deny it is on current earth.

Amill does not deny that the second coming is his return to this present earth.

Tim, Amill believes the millennium finishes with his second coming.
Premill believes it starts at his second coming.

Hopefully now you can connect the dots to a previous post which you struggled to understand....,

That is why Amill is true and Premill is false.
Premill has massive sinful rebellion 1000 years after the second coming and Amill does not, as all is fully consummated and made new at his second coming. There is hope for you yet Timothy.

[Tim replied...
Amil has massive sinful rebellion after the Second Coming.

Pre-mill allow humans without sin to leave their first estate like the angels did.]


We Amills believe all things are restored at his coming.

Thats the Blessed hope realized with a capitol B, rather than a low case b, as premill believes full restoration happens 1000 years later.
Please Bro' take the time to try and understand what we are saying before you respond.
God bless you in this.

 

[jeffweeder]

I do not have to imagine anything. Revelation 20:4. Matthew 13. Matthew 25. After the Second Coming, Jesus hand picks those who will live during the Millennium.

No Tim.
You need to believe what Jesus said will happen to the sheep and the Goats.


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);]



Surely you would rather believe this than contradict him right Bro'?


We look forward to what God created at the foundation of this world , which was a sin free , goat free earth with no sin/death to be found. Peter refers to it as the NHNE without any complications.

The Goats at his second coming are thrown into the fire that was prepared for the devil and his followers, which is the lake of fire he and the goats are thrown into at the GWT.

 

[covenantee]

Does that cover evey human currently alive? Does it cover all of creation? Would you be comfortable living with a serial killer, because they exercise righteousness at the same time they kill people?

Romans 4
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

 

[WPM]

So Revelation 20:4 is a future event after the Second Coming, and there is a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ?

I thought you claim Revelation 20 is a recap of the time between the first century and the Second Coming?

You can make your point now.

Why do I have to look up a quote where you claim the future millennium is a bust, goat infested, and sin infested? Why would I make that up?

The Day of the Lord is the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. It comes with a total destruction and restoration of the works of man on earth. It is the implementation of Daniel 9:24 by the end of the 7th Trumpet.

I know the Day of the Lord has not arrived. You are the one changing Revelation 20, not me. A Day with the Lord is as 1,000 years. So this coming 1,000 years is as a Day with the Lord. It is not complicated. Revelation 20 is the Day of the Lord.

I do not have to imagine anything. Revelation 20:4. Matthew 13. Matthew 25. After the Second Coming, Jesus hand picks those who will live during the Millennium. Those beheaded get there by choosing to chop their head off. Do you imagine they do not have their heads chopped off? Some do as they are just symbolic of being spiritually in Christ. The claim is they are only martyred souls without bodies for an indefinite period of time, according to many Amil.

Why are you forcing your beliefs upon Amil? Of course we believe Revelation 20 is a recap of the time between the First Advent and the second coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I do not have to imagine anything. Revelation 20:4. Matthew 13. Matthew 25. After the Second Coming, Jesus hand picks those who will live during the Millennium. Those beheaded get there by choosing to chop their head off.

I thought we just had to repent and put our faith in Christ in order to reign with Christ? We also need to chop our own heads off?

 

[Timtofly]

Amill does not deny that the second coming is his return to this present earth.

Tim, Amill believes the millennium finishes with his second coming.
Premill believes it starts at his second coming.

Hopefully now you can connect the dots to a previous post which you struggled to understand....,




[Tim replied...
Amil has massive sinful rebellion after the Second Coming.

Pre-mill allow humans without sin to leave their first estate like the angels did.]


We Amills believe all things are restored at his coming.

Thats the Blessed hope realized with a capitol B, rather than a low case b, as premill believes full restoration happens 1000 years later.
Please Bro' take the time to try and understand what we are saying before you respond.
God bless you in this.

Just because many pre-mill are wrong does not make Amil correct.

When Amil start claiming the Millennium is sin infested and goat infested because of Satan's little season, they are worse off than pre-mill.

The Millennium Amil preach in the here and now is full of sin and sinners. That is never implied in Revelation 20 or Isaiah 65.

So if you are an Amil that can see the coming 1,000 year reign of Christ without sin and without sinners good for you.

I understand clearly Amil deny a future 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Does it really matter to them how that Millennium is portrayed if they proclaim it will never happen?

 

[Timtofly]

No Tim.
You need to believe what Jesus said will happen to the sheep and the Goats.


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);]



Surely you would rather believe this than contradict him right Bro'?


We look forward to what God created at the foundation of this world , which was a sin free , goat free earth with no sin/death to be found. Peter refers to it as the NHNE without any complications.

The Goats at his second coming are thrown into the fire that was prepared for the devil and his followers, which is the lake of fire he and the goats are thrown into at the GWT.

Yes, I agree the sheep inherit a sin free earth. They reign with Christ 1,000 years until all things are subjected. Then Jesus hands back creation to God.

I have no problem with the goats being tossed into the LOF. Both the FP and the beast are tossed into the LOF 1,000 years before the rest of the dead are taken out of Death and sheol.

The reason this is about Israel only is because Israel has always been the lost sheep scattered throughout all nations. There is no way we can even know who all those lost sheep are. They are not the church, because the church is raptured and glorified. These sheep only inherit the earth created for them since Genesis 1.

The NHNE was not created at the beginning in Genesis 1. This current earth was created in Genesis 1. Jesus did not say the kingdom that will soon be created. Jesus was talking about this current creation we live in right now.

 

[Timtofly]

Why are you forcing your beliefs upon Amil? Of course we believe Revelation 20 is a recap of the time between the First Advent and the second coming?

Not forcing. Pointing out the difference between taught Amil from extra biblical human opinion, and God's Word.

 

[Timtofly]

I thought we just had to repent and put our faith in Christ in order to reign with Christ? We also need to chop our own heads off?

Do you plan on living in those 42 months of Satan's AoD? You are post all of Satan's acts on earth claiming you can endure until the end. Are you going to avoid both the mark and being beheaded? Will you be hiding on the sidelines at Armageddon?

If you are not beheaded, then you will not be part of those judged and resurrected after being beheaded. Some one just started a thread that contains a post asking why no one wants to be like John the Baptist. Perhaps no one is willing to be beheaded, but only those beheaded will be resurrected for that is their very testimony to the Lord.

I guess you are too busy spiritualizing God's Word to see the details of that first resurrection.

 

[WPM]

Just because many pre-mill are wrong does not make Amil correct.

When Amil start claiming the Millennium is sin infested and goat infested because of Satan's little season, they are worse off than pre-mill.

The Millennium Amil preach in the here and now is full of sin and sinners. That is never implied in Revelation 20 or Isaiah 65.

So if you are an Amil that can see the coming 1,000 year reign of Christ without sin and without sinners good for you.

I understand clearly Amil deny a future 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Does it really matter to them how that Millennium is portrayed if they proclaim it will never happen?

Your millennium is overrun by billions of satanist. You cannot deal with that.

 

[WPM]

All according to you. You totally ignore other Scripture, and develope your own opinion as fact. Revelation 10 declares time over at the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 11 declares Jesus as King.

I am not a futurist. Just pointing out Scripture.

There is no verse that states within.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,"

Last time I checked 7 plus 62 is 69, not 70. The only thing promised is Messiah cut off after 69 weeks. Besides Jesus being the 70th week is Jesus fulfilling both Christ and King in the 70 weeks. In is within those 70 weeks.

But Gabriel does not frame it that way. You are the one demanding your opinion being forced into the passage. Gabriel frames it as after 69 weeks, not within 69 nor 70 consecutive weeks.

The determination of 70 weeks is broken into 7 and 62 already. Placing the 70th week does not contradict Gabriel's point. It only points out the flaw in your own opinion you force onto the text. If Gabriel had not already broken the time into 7 and 62 weeks, you may have a point. You are fighting Scripture for your continuous time frame of 70 weeks.

Paul already points out there was a hold on Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. The promise was not given to the Gentiles. It was given to Israel. The Trumpets do not deal with Gentiles. They deal with Israel. Even the AoD was not instigated by Israel, as you claim. The AoD is always an act of a Gentile.

When the veil was torn at the point of Jesus declaring it is finished, there could no longer be an AoD in that temple. It was no longer Holy. So the Jews continued usage of the temple was not blasphemy, nor the AoD. There was no AoD in 70AD for the same reason. Continued usage was rather pointless, but not a defilement. God literally gave them their desires and the innocent blood of Jesus was on their hands and the hands of their children and grandchildren. The Jews brought on their own desolation and destruction.

OK, if all of the righteous are glorified at the second coming, and all the wicked are destroyed, who is this imaginary third group that you invent that overrun your future millennium?

 

[jeffweeder]

J

So if you are an Amil that can see the coming 1,000 year reign of Christ without sin and without sinners good for you.

No Amill sees it that way.
We see the NHNE as only without sin and sinners.

 

[jeffweeder]

OK, if all of the righteous are glorified at the second coming, and all the wicked are destroyed, who is this imaginary third group that you invent that overrun your future millennium?

Exactly. Those who belong to Jesus are glorified at his coming, so what is this future 1000 years all about when we are the only ones left?

 

[jeffweeder]

These sheep only inherit the earth created for them since Genesis 1.

The NHNE was not created at the beginning in Genesis 1. This current earth was created in Genesis 1. Jesus did not say the kingdom that will soon be created. Jesus was talking about this current creation we live in right now.

This current FALLEN earth is not what God created in Genesis.
God created an unfallen earth (Eden) from the foundation of the world, and this is what the sheep inherit. Its a fully restored earth aka the NHNE.

 

[WPM]

This current FALLEN earth is not what God created in Genesis.
God created an unfallen earth (Eden) from the foundation of the world, and this is what the sheep inherit. Its a fully restored earth aka the NHNE.

Exactly bro. Well said.

 

[Timtofly]

Your millennium is overrun by billions of satanist. You cannot deal with that.

Your opinion is meaningless. I can deal with your opinion being wrong.

According to your opinion, Adam and Eve were Satanist, and they were the only two humans on earth. Also meaningless.

Creation was a bust according to you, the same as the Day of the Lord. I will continue to see these views as personal opinions, and nothing more.

If you cannot see the same thing happened in the Garden, then what else is there to say?

Satan was allow to deceive humanity the same way and the result was still the same. People listened to Satan and died because of the deception.

 

[Timtofly]

OK, if all of the righteous are glorified at the second coming, and all the wicked are destroyed, who is this imaginary third group that you invent that overrun your future millennium?

Who says all the righteous are glorified?

There are righteous on earth. There are righteous in Paradise. Only one group of righteous left in creation.

None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh is left. That is the whole point. There is not even two groups. There is only one group.

Only one group is left. Why do you still maintain two groups? Are you insisting no one is alive on the earth?