22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Timtofly]

Those seen coming out of the grave when Jesus died on Calvary, they were "Raised From The Dead" just as Lazarus and Tabitha were, no resurrection to immortality took place as claimed

No, they were not glorified. They were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They ascended to Paradise with Jesus. They have been there ever since.

 

[Timtofly]

Interestingly, the only place outside of Revelation 20 that the term a thousand years is mentioned in the New Testament is in 2 Peter 3. There, it is significantly used in an entirely figurative sense. In this chapter, Peter is specifically addressing the cynics who live in the last days that doubt the appearing of the Lord at His Second Advent and indeed harbour the foolish notion that He will not come at all. It is in this context that he addresses these misguided doubters, saying, “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation” (2 Peter 3:3-4).

Peter, however, says in response, “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (vv 5-9).

This familiar passage closely parallels the reading that we have just analysed in Psalm 90, indicating the same spiritual truth – that God is not limited to time. Again, notably, the contrast between the number one and a thousand is employed to simply represent an important divine truth.

Some theologians mistakenly attempt to use this passage to argue that one of God’s eternal days represents a literal thousand earthly years and that the commencement occurs at the time of Second Advent. However, they do err in their assumption, in that, this text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3 does not in anyway indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. Peter is simply reminding such people that time is absolutely nothing to the King of glory. He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state.

Christ speaks of the unprepared state of many professing believers, who are exposed for their unpreparedness in Luke 12:45-46, saying, “if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.”

It is in this context that he addresses these misguided doubters. Peter says in response, “beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (v 8).

Peter thus outlines two distinct yet contrasting time equations in this passage for the sole purpose of expressing a deep spiritual truth. Notwithstanding, and not surprisingly, the Premillennialist are swift to selectively advance the first aspect of this calculation as supposed evidence that one of God’s heavenly days represents a thousand literal temporal earthly years. However, whilst they unquestionably address, and happily literalise, the first part of this calculation they are understandably careful to side step the second part of the sum. Evidently, such is for the reason that it doesn’t fit their flawed hyper-literalist mode of interpretation.

Significantly, this reading in no place suggests the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years. The Premillennialist forces that into the reading. In the above passage it simply indicates “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (v 8).

Those who take the aforementioned verses to support a future 1,000-year millennium of peace are faced with an insurmountable inconsistency when they examine the detail of the remainder of the chapter, and try and get it to fit their paradigm. 2 Peter 3:10-13 continues, “the day of the Lord will come (or arrive) as thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall ‘go or pass away, or perish’ with a great noise, and the elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be ‘burned up utterly or consumed wholly’. Seeing then that all these things shall be ‘dissolved, loosened or broke up’ … Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be ‘dissolved, melted or loosed’, and the elements shall ‘melt by being set on fire’?” Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

This passage is so clear, final and all-consummating that one wonders how anyone could remotely imagine that creation could survive such an all-consummating fiery event. One also wonders how the Holy Spirit could have possibly advanced more explicit language to indicate the idea of total devastation. Whatever way you look at this chapter there is absolutely no allowance made or possibility for a future post-Second Coming millennial kingdom on this earth. Peter knows of no other coming of Christ other than that which eradicate the heavens, elements and the earth in one stupendous conflagration.

Anyone who contends that this passage supports the Premillennial theory that the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years after the second coming must surely see the absolute absurdity of their notion in the light of these last verses. This vivid account of complete devastation and utter destruction that occurs in this final day totally destroys any credence for the advancement of the Premillennial supposition. If this day lasts 1,000 years, as the Premillennialist passionately argues, then it is unquestionably a thousand years of awful and continuous judgment, which is in stark contradiction to the peaceful (albeit goat-infested) millennium that Premillennialists try to portray in their literature.

It is a good thing that the coming (of the Day of the Lord) only lasts for a short time. It is the coming that is destructive climactic and earth changing.

The Day of the Lord itself is the new heavens and earth of Isaiah 65.

Noah's Flood was not the whole next 4500 years. Noah's Flood was the judgment of water. The Second Coming brings the judgment of fire. It is not the whole Day of the Lord. The Second Coming is not the Day of the Lord.

I guess you are stuck in your 24 hour day. Good luck with that.

Interestingly Daniel's 70 weeks is not mentioned any where outside of Daniel 9.

And no, in 2 Peter 3, a thousand is still literal. The Day of the Lord is the figurative phrase compared to and explained as 1,000 years. In fact those scoffers could not make head nor tails of any changes since the first day of creation. Peter pointed out a very major change. In fact, he claimed the day of the Lord would come as devastatingly as the Flood did, but fire instead of water. We all know the Flood did not last 1,000 years, but the Flood was not describing the Day of the Lord. The Coming of the Day of the Lord is compared to the Flood, not that the Day of the Lord would be over at the point of this climactic destruction. The Day of the Lord also brings a new heaven and earth that will last 1,000 years until Jesus hands back creation to God.

 

[The Light]

The 5th and 6th Seal is not described in Revelation 14. Revelation 14 is the 7th Trumpet.

Pay attention to what you are reading. When the 7th trumpet begins to sound the MYSTERY OF GOD IS FINISHED.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the 7th trumpet sounds the KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The WRATH OF GOD IS OVER. it is the TIME OF THE DEAD TO BE JUDGED.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I can't make you understand what is written. Just read what it says.

You are rearranging Revelation to fit your personal interpretation.

Only in your mind. Nothing is being rearranged. Revelation 6 line up perfectly to Matthew 24. THEY AGREE EXACTLY. Jesus returns at the 6th seal IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days. THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS with the opening of the 7th trumpet. Nothing is rearranged. Read what it says.

Thr 5th Seal is putting on the robes of white. That is the only event that happens. It is written here by Paul:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

The dead in Christ are the souls under the alter. They put on white robes.

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Putting on white robes, the 5th Seal.

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Revelation 6
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Seal 5 is not about the last 1992 years of tribulation.

I know. The seals are not opened yet. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. The seals will not be opened until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in at the pre 70th week rapture.

Those 24 elders have been there since the first century. I guess the first century rapture was secret, because it was never recorded by those on earth. I guarantee you and I were not involved in that rapture.

Then why or why would you say that the 24 elders have been in heaven since the 1st century. John wrote revelation is 95 AD.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Jesus has not returned yet for His Church, so those 24 elders are not yet in heaven.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal and this is not secret:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne."

When all on earth can see the face of God sitting on the GWT, it is not secret.

I have never said that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is a secret coming. The secret coming of Jesus occurs BEFORE the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel.

Obviously the Second Coming is before the Trumpets and Thunders. Why put those, in the final harvest itself, into the wrath of God? You are placing the final harvest of the wheat, Matthew 13, and the sheep, Matthew 25, into what you call "God's wrath". You seem to just make up what is God's wrath, when it is not. If the Trumpets and Thunders are God's wrath, what are the 7 vials in Revelation 16?

The wrath is the trumpets. The 7th trumpet is the end of wrath. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. It is the time that the dead are judged. READ WHAT IT SAYS.

Jesus is the 70th week. Gabriel declared 69 weeks and then Messiah the Prince, Christ the King. We know as Messiah, Jesus was roughly half the 70th week. As stated after the halfway point Messiah was cut off, and Jesus ascended. This 70th week was cut off for the fulness of the Gentiles.

The Church and Gentile bride has nothing to do with the Trumpets and Thunders.

ok. Have I ever said differently. I said the Church is gone before the seals are opened.

Of course the church is gone at the 6th Seal,

No the Church is not gone at the 6th seal. The church is gone BEFORE the seals are opened. We are already in heaven in Revelation 5

and Jesus is presented as Jacob's King on earth physically, just as He was their Messiah on earth physically. But to call that God's wrath is a stretch. It is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, of course there is pain and suffering.

The Church is already going through the Seals.

The Church will not be here during the seals. Read your Bible. The Church will already be in heaven.

If the Word is clear about 7 years, you would have posted a clear verse.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Once again you say 6th Seal, but then jump to the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet sounding is to confirm the Atonement after the final harvest.

The harvest occurs at the 6th seal AFTER the great tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God.

Revelation 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. ((THE GREAT TRIBULATION))

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. ((HARVEST BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD))

It is the celebration of the declared victory. Jesus and the angels have been on the earth since the 6th Seal. The final harvest was the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

Dude. The trumpets and thunders are the wrath of God. Where are you getting this stuff?

 

[The Light]

Revelation 14 is the last of Adam's flesh if there is no 42 month extension. It would go from Revelation 11 to Revelation 14. Chapters 12 and 13 is the alternate scenario if there are still souls to accept the Atonement. Those 42 months are not for Satan. Those 42 months are not even for the 2 witnesses. Those 42 months are for those who choose to be beheaded instead of taking the mark. The 42 months is allowed to give them time to make that decision.

Active imagination brother.

And you are still wrong. Jesus sets his feet on the mount of Olives at the 6th Seal.

Jesus does not set His feet on the mount of Olives at the 6th seal. Here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. Jesus remains in the clouds.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

He sets up His throne and the angels gather the sheep and goats for judgment to Jerusalem from out of all the nations. This is what the Trumpets are for. Then the wheat and tares are gathered during the 7 Thunders. This is the final harvest. Any one left will all be killed in Revelation 14. No one survives. This is the time of the 7th Trumpet, and Adam's 6,000 years of punishment is over. That is already declared in Revelation 10.

All this is wrong. The harvest is at the 6th seal. It is marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. THEN THE 7TH SEAL IS OPENED. The begins the trumpets of Gods wrath. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. Revelation 13 and 14 occurs in the seals.

 

[Timtofly]

Pay attention to what you are reading. When the 7th trumpet begins to sound the MYSTERY OF GOD IS FINISHED.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the 7th trumpet sounds the KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The WRATH OF GOD IS OVER. it is the TIME OF THE DEAD TO BE JUDGED.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

I can't make you understand what is written. Just read what it says.



Only in your mind. Nothing is being rearranged. Revelation 6 line up perfectly to Matthew 24. THEY AGREE EXACTLY. Jesus returns at the 6th seal IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days. THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS with the opening of the 7th trumpet. Nothing is rearranged. Read what it says.



The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Revelation 6
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


I know. The seals are not opened yet. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. The seals will not be opened until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in at the pre 70th week rapture.

Then why or why would you say that the 24 elders have been in heaven since the 1st century. John wrote revelation is 95 AD.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Jesus has not returned yet for His Church, so those 24 elders are not yet in heaven.


I have never said that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is a secret coming. The secret coming of Jesus occurs BEFORE the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel.

The wrath is the trumpets. The 7th trumpet is the end of wrath. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. It is the time that the dead are judged. READ WHAT IT SAYS.

ok. Have I ever said differently. I said the Church is gone before the seals are opened.


No the Church is not gone at the 6th seal. The church is gone BEFORE the seals are opened. We are already in heaven in Revelation 5



The Church will not be here during the seals. Read your Bible. The Church will already be in heaven.



Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


The harvest occurs at the 6th seal AFTER the great tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God.

Revelation 14

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. ((THE GREAT TRIBULATION))

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. ((HARVEST BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD))

Dude. The trumpets and thunders are the wrath of God. Where are you getting this stuff?

Where are getting your imagination from? You keep calling these events something they are not. The wrath of God is shown in the 7 vials. Yet you add your imagination into Scripture. Revelation 15:1

"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

What verse points out the wrath of God before the 7 vials?

 

[The Light]

Where are getting your imagination from? You keep calling these events something they are not.

Really? The Word says that the mystery of God is finished when the 7th angel begins to sound. Did I make that up? The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord when the 7th trumpets is blown. Do you just read past that with no understanding. The dead are judged after the 7th trumpet sounds and reward are given. Can you not see that the Messiah has returned or do you just pretend these things are not there.

The wrath of God is shown in the 7 vials. Yet you add your imagination into Scripture. Revelation 15:1

"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

Yes, the 7 vials are the wrath of God. Are you going to pretend that the trumpets are not the wrath of God? The vials are just different information of events that happen during the wrath of God, just like the trumpets.

What verse points out the wrath of God before the 7 vials?

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the second harvest. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.

Don't believe me? Do you need to see the coming Jesus again for the second harvest and the wrath of God beginning

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[Timtofly]

Really? The Word says that the mystery of God is finished when the 7th angel begins to sound. Did I make that up? The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord when the 7th trumpets is blown. Do you just read past that with no understanding. The dead are judged after the 7th trumpet sounds and reward are given. Can you not see that the Messiah has returned or do you just pretend these things are not there.


Yes, the 7 vials are the wrath of God. Are you going to pretend that the trumpets are not the wrath of God? The vials are just different information of events that happen during the wrath of God, just like the trumpets.


Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for the second harvest. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.

Don't believe me? Do you need to see the coming Jesus again for the second harvest and the wrath of God beginning

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Those verses state the wrath of the Lamb, that is the final harvest with Jesus on earth with His angels. This final harvest is the great unprecedented tribulation during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

The wrath of the Lamb is not the mystery of God nor the wrath of God in the 7 vials.

The 7 vials is the same outcome of the winepress in Revelation 14. Revelation 19 is if the 42 months are allowed by God. Revelation 14 is the end of the week of the 7th Trumpet if it is not split in the midst per Daniel 9:27.

The mystery of God is the Atonement of the Cross. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Lost humanity is spiritually blind to this gift of God, without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit. Adam's punishment is complete and time is up at the 7th Trumpet. Of course the wrath of God was poured out on God on the Cross. Those who refused the Atonement get God's wrath in the 7 vials. The mystery is not wrath. The mystery is that God's wrath was satisfied on the Cross, and Adam's flesh keep insisting they are self righteous in their own eyes, and do not need God's Atonement.

 

[WPM]

It is a good thing that the coming (of the Day of the Lord) only lasts for a short time. It is the coming that is destructive climactic and earth changing.

The Day of the Lord itself is the new heavens and earth of Isaiah 65.

Noah's Flood was not the whole next 4500 years. Noah's Flood was the judgment of water. The Second Coming brings the judgment of fire. It is not the whole Day of the Lord. The Second Coming is not the Day of the Lord.

I guess you are stuck in your 24 hour day. Good luck with that.

Interestingly Daniel's 70 weeks is not mentioned any where outside of Daniel 9.

And no, in 2 Peter 3, a thousand is still literal. The Day of the Lord is the figurative phrase compared to and explained as 1,000 years. In fact those scoffers could not make head nor tails of any changes since the first day of creation. Peter pointed out a very major change. In fact, he claimed the day of the Lord would come as devastatingly as the Flood did, but fire instead of water. We all know the Flood did not last 1,000 years, but the Flood was not describing the Day of the Lord. The Coming of the Day of the Lord is compared to the Flood, not that the Day of the Lord would be over at the point of this climactic destruction. The Day of the Lord also brings a new heaven and earth that will last 1,000 years until Jesus hands back creation to God.

You are totally missing the thrust. There it is absolutely nothing here to do with a future age, but time in the here-and-now. This text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3:8 does not in any way indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. In fact, Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalm 93:2). This isn't rocket science. It is simple, accurate and contextual.

There is no duration of time in between the promise and the fulfillment that has any bearing upon the plan of God, whether it is one day, one week, one year, or one thousand years. God is never late. His purpose cannot be thwarted. No one can curtail it. No one can delay it. It will happen right on time. Why is that? Because He calls the shots and He exists outside of time.

 

[Timtofly]

You are totally missing the thrust. There it is absolutely nothing here to do with a future age, but time in the here-and-now. This text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3:8 does not in any way indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. In fact, Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalm 93:2). This isn't rocket science. It is simple, accurate and contextual.

There is no duration of time in between the promise and the fulfillment that has any bearing upon the plan of God, whether it is one day, one week, one year, or one thousand years. God is never late. His purpose cannot be thwarted. No one can curtail it. No one can delay it. It will happen right on time. Why is that? Because He calls the shots and He exists outside of time.

No one states there is time between the promise and the fulfillment of what?

If I point out January 1 comes with a bang, the bang is not the whole Day. January 1st is the whole day.

The Day of the Lord is the whole 1,000 year period. No one can change that fact.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Day of the Lord is the whole 1,000 year period. No one can change that fact.

No such thing as a 1,000 year long day of the Lord as you falsely claim, it will be in a single day, like a thief quickly in sudden destruction, this takes place at the Lords "Second Advent" (The End)

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[WPM]

No one states there is time between the promise and the fulfillment of what?

If I point out January 1 comes with a bang, the bang is not the whole Day. January 1st is the whole day.

The Day of the Lord is the whole 1,000 year period. No one can change that fact.

But if January 1 comes with such a climactic and wholesale bang that nothing survives, then it is over. Hello! That is what happens when Jesus comes.

 

[Timtofly]

But if January 1 comes with such a climactic and wholesale bang that nothing survives, then it is over. Hello! That is what happens when Jesus comes.

But if the restoration is the same event, who cares? The restoration is the point, not the destruction.

Certainly you don't claim the restoration is first, and then the destruction?

 

[WPM]

But if the restoration is the same event, who cares? The restoration is the point, not the destruction.

Certainly you don't claim the restoration is first, and then the destruction?

What arrives is an incorruptible environment for incorruptible beings. No one else is able to corrupt it.

 

[Timtofly]

What arrives is an incorruptible environment for incorruptible beings. No one else is able to corrupt it.

No one was able to corrupt the original creation.

 

[WPM]

No one was able to corrupt the original creation.

Explain yourself.

 

[Timtofly]

Explain yourself.

Humans did not invent sin. Satan did not invent sin.

No one in Revelation 20:8-9

"the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:"

can corrupt the earth and create sin.

You claim they manufacture sin out of thin air and can corrupt creation. If as you say no one can corrupt creation, why are you contradicting your point and claim a bunch of humans can do that?

Did Adam corrupt creation?

Did Adam disobey God or did Adam manufacture sin, thus corrupting the earth?

 

[WPM]

Humans did not invent sin. Satan did not invent sin.

No one in Revelation 20:8-9

"the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:"

can corrupt the earth and create sin.

You claim they manufacture sin out of thin air and can corrupt creation. If as you say no one can corrupt creation, why are you contradicting your point and claim a bunch of humans can do that?

Did Adam corrupt creation?

Did Adam disobey God or did Adam manufacture sin, thus corrupting the earth?

Sin is basically living a life independent from God. It is doing your own thing. It is refusing to bow the knee to the commands and demands of God. 1 John 3:4 tells us: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

According to Augustine: sin is "a word, deed, or desire in opposition to the eternal law of God."

Sin is doing what God tells you not to do, and refusing to do what He tells you do.Sin is disobeying the voice of God, whether through the written Word or by the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

A W Tozer said: “The essence of sin is rebellion against divine authority.”

Westminster Confession of Faith asks: “What is sin?” and answers: “Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God.”

John Piper says about sin, “Sin is what your do when you heart is not satisfied with God.”

 

[Timtofly]

Sin is basically living a life independent from God. It is doing your own thing. It is refusing to bow the knee to the commands and demands of God. 1 John 3:4 tells us: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

According to Augustine: sin is "a word, deed, or desire in opposition to the eternal law of God."

Sin is doing what God tells you not to do, and refusing to do what He tells you do.Sin is disobeying the voice of God, whether through the written Word or by the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

A W Tozer said: “The essence of sin is rebellion against divine authority.”

Westminster Confession of Faith asks: “What is sin?” and answers: “Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God.”

John Piper says about sin, “Sin is what your do when you heart is not satisfied with God.”

That applies after Adam disobeyed God. For as by one man sin entered the world. That will not apply after the Second Coming. Daniel 9:24.

There was no sin prior to Adam's disobedience. There will be no sin in Revelation 20 post the Second Coming.

 

[WPM]

That applies after Adam disobeyed God. For as by one man sin entered the world. That will not apply after the Second Coming. Daniel 9:24.

There was no sin prior to Adam's disobedience. There will be no sin in Revelation 20 post the Second Coming.

Where in Daniel 9:24 and Revelation 20 teaches "there will be no sin ... post the Second Coming"?

 

[jeffweeder]

There will be no sin in Revelation 20 post the Second Coming.

That is why Amill is true and Premill is false.
Premill has massive sinful rebellion 1000 years after the second coming and Amill does not, as all is fully consummated and made new at his second coming. There is hope for you yet Timothy.