22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I’ll read it but I think you are really saying it does not line up with your current understanding and interpretation of it.
Having a hard time keeping up. I’m sure I’ve missed some other posts as well.

Why would it not line up with my current understanding of it when I'm the one giving my interpretation of those passages? Am I giving an interpretation of those passages that doesn't line up with my current understanding of those passages? Of course not. So, I have no idea of what you're talking about here.

So, let me just ask you these questions then. According to Acts 2:16-21, when did the last days begin? According to 2 Peter 3:3-4, what day do the last days lead up to?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s kind of an odd conversation, isn’t it? Like…I can put myself in their scaffolding a lot of the time to at least see where their mind is but they can’t ever put themselves in my scaffolding to say, oh, okay, wait a minute, I forgot for a sec that she thinks thus and thus.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev. 19 occurs before REv. 20. Jesus returns to earth in REv. 19, battles and vanquishes.

IN REv. 20:
1. We see Satan bound and abyssed for 1,000 years! There is nothing to warrant thinking this 1,000 years is allegorical or symbolic.
2. We see people co reigning with Jesus- for 1,000 years! We see those who died in the tribulation for refusing the mark reigning- for 1,000 years.
3. The rest of the dead were not resurrected for 1,000 years! these people , the second death has authority over them.
4. Satan is loosed, after being bound---for 1,000 years!
5. He goes out and decives the nations living on earth and brings them to Jerusalem!
6. God destroys them, wipes out the universe and establishes the Great white throne--after the 1,000 years!
7. Eternity happens after every one is assigned their eternal hoime!

But, this interpretation contradicts a lot of other scripture passages which teach that Christ reigns now, all of the dead will be resurrected around the same time, all people will be judged at the same time and that all unbelievers will be killed on the day Christ returns. Is that of no concern to you?

6 times God inspired 1,000 years as a time measure- we should pay atrtention.

The number of times the thousand years is mentioned is irrelevant and does not determine if it's literal or not. The beast is mentioned over 30 times in the book of Revelation. Does that make it a literal beast?

Just like the 144,000 Jews. He goes to great lengths to define they are 144,000. 12,000 from 12 tribes- we should pay attention.

We should pay attention that this is written within a book containing a great deal of symbolic text.

 

[WPM]

Rev. 19 occurs before REv. 20. Jesus returns to earth in REv. 19, battles and vanquishes.

IN REv. 20:
1. We see Satan bound and abyssed for 1,000 years! There is nothing to warrant thinking this 1,000 years is allegorical or symbolic.
2. We see people co reigning with Jesus- for 1,000 years! We see those who died in the tribulation for refusing the mark reigning- for 1,000 years.
3. The rest of the dead were not resurrected for 1,000 years! these people , the second death has authority over them.
4. Satan is loosed, after being bound---for 1,000 years!
5. He goes out and decives the nations living on earth and brings them to Jerusalem!
6. God destroys them, wipes out the universe and establishes the Great white throne--after the 1,000 years!
7. Eternity happens after every one is assigned their eternal hoime!

6 times God inspired 1,000 years as a time measure- we should pay atrtention.

Just like the 144,000 Jews. He goes to great lengths to define they are 144,000. 12,000 from 12 tribes- we should pay attention.

· Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
· Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
· Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

 

[WPM]

It’s kind of an odd conversation, isn’t it? Like…I can put myself in their scaffolding a lot of the time to at least see where their mind is but they can’t ever put themselves in my scaffolding to say, oh, okay, wait a minute, I forgot for a sec that she thinks thus and thus.

Many of us are former Premils. We know the many holes in Premil. That is why we ask what we do.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You are still not addressing the contradictions in your position. We have established that all the wicked are destroyed

Honestly, I’m being truthful, I don’t understand what you mean here. I don’t see any contradictions in what I’ve said.

I can see at times that you think there are contradictions in what I’ve said, but I can’t can’t see them.

 

[WPM]

I did not read all your covenantal arguments to not believein premillenialism ( though which version of pre-mil are you against).

But there is only one reason to believe in the pre-millenial physical return of Jesus Christ to reign for 1,000 years---IT IS BIBLICAL!

Prove it.

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

 

[WPM]

Honestly, I’m being truthful, I don’t understand what you mean here. I don’t see any contradictions in what I’ve said.

I can see at times that you think there are contradictions in what I’ve said, but I can’t can’t see them.

1. Are there any mortals in your future millennium?
2. If yes, who are they? Are they saved or unsaved?
3. What qualifies them to escape the wrath of God when Jesus comes and what hinders them from being glorified when Jesus comes?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

That’s an astoundingly good question…
I view this as one corroboration. It depicts two different reapings. The first reads as if Jesus reaps the earth and the second one as if an angel/angels do the reaping. I think there are some years in between the two reapings.


14 Then I saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like the Son of Man.He had a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

15 Then another angel came from the Temple and shouted to the one sitting on the cloud, “Swing the sickle, for the time of harvest has come; the crop on earth is ripe.” 16 So the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the whole earth was harvested.

17 After that, another angel came from the Temple in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, who had power to destroy with fire, came from the altar. He shouted to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sickle now to gather the clusters of grapes from the vines of the earth, for they are ripe for judgment.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.

 

[marks]

It’s kind of an odd conversation, isn’t it? Like…I can put myself in their scaffolding a lot of the time to at least see where their mind is but they can’t ever put themselves in my scaffolding to say, oh, okay, wait a minute, I forgot for a sec that she thinks thus and thus.

That reminds me, something I wanted to mention to you, in my understanding, the survivors of the tribulation will include Israel of whom all will be redeemed and reborn, and the Gentiles, who will be gathered and separated in judgment. Israel, and the surviving Gentiles continue in the kingdom age in natural bodies, and having children.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

1. Are there any mortals in your future millennium?
2. If yes, who are they? Are they saved or unsaved?
3. What qualifies them to escape the wrath of God when Jesus comes and what hinders them from being glorified when Jesus comes?

I answered your #1 and #2 already. In pretty good detail. In post #311.

What qualifies them to escape Gods wrath when satan is released again for a brief time at the end of the thousand years is that they don’t side with him and try to go to war against the city of Jerusalem?

 

[marks]

As in useless to continue? Futility?
You certainly couldn’t have meant the post was vanity as in arrogance…

Empty of meaning, was what I meant.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Empty of meaning, was what I meant.

Much love!

That’s what I thought. The man took it as an attack but I was pretty sure of what you meant.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That’s an astoundingly good question…
I view this as one corroboration. It depicts two different reapings. The first reads as if Jesus reaps the earth and the second one as if an angel/angels do the reaping. I think there are some years in between the two reapings.


14 Then I saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like the Son of Man.He had a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

15 Then another angel came from the Temple and shouted to the one sitting on the cloud, “Swing the sickle, for the time of harvest has come; the crop on earth is ripe.” 16 So the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the whole earth was harvested.

17 After that, another angel came from the Temple in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, who had power to destroy with fire, came from the altar. He shouted to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sickle now to gather the clusters of grapes from the vines of the earth, for they are ripe for judgment.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.

What scripture can you reference that would support your interpretation of this passage? Do you believe in a pre-trib rapture or something like that? How would you describe your current beliefs? Obviously, you are a premillennialist, but I'm curious if you would describe yourself as being a pre-trib dispensationalist as well or not.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What scripture can you reference that would support your interpretation of this passage?

They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Do you believe in a pre-trib rapture or something like that?.

Yes, I do, although I differ a lot from most pretribbers.

 

[WPM]

I answered your #1 and #2 already. In pretty good detail. In post #311.

What qualifies them to escape Gods wrath when satan is released again for a brief time at the end of the thousand years is that they don’t side with him and try to go to war against the city of Jerusalem?

No. You just contradicted what you previously said. This is as clear as mud.

You said: "I think some of them are humans who survive the great tribulation and don’t take the mark because they come to believe."

I replied: "But everyone who is not in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the earth take the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:8 and 17:8)."

You said: "Correct. Those people take the mark."

I asked: "So, why are the not glorified when Jesus comes with all the rest of the redeemed?"

You said: "I think they were in the first resurrection and have their new glorified bodies…"

So are changing your mind and saying they will now not have "new glorified bodies"?

I am totally confused!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I answered your #1 and #2 already. In pretty good detail. In post #311.

What qualifies them to escape Gods wrath when satan is released again for a brief time at the end of the thousand years is that they don’t side with him and try to go to war against the city of Jerusalem?

Here is what you said in post #311

Well…I think some of them are humans who survive the great tribulation and don’t take the mark because they come to believe, either by seeing things take place they heard of or by the preaching of the two witnesses, some are those who were left behind not counted worthy to escape it but needing more testing of their trust. I also think those who were found worthy to escape that time of trouble are there, along with all others who were resurrected in the first resurrection. I think these will rule and reign with Christ and are no longer mortal.

So, you're saying the answer to the following questions can be found in that post:

1. Are there any mortals in your future millennium?
2. If yes, who are they? Are they saved or unsaved?

The last thing you said was "I think these will rule and reign with Christ and are no longer mortal". So, does this mean you're saying you don't believe there will be mortals on the earth during that time? If not, then who exactly are you saying will be mortal at that point and are they saved or unsaved? I can't tell from what you said since I'm not sure if "these" who rule and reign was a reference to all of the survivors you had mentioned before that or just some of them, with the rest being mortals.

 

[marks]

5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

As this is the plain reading of the passage,

Revelation 20:1-3 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The question to be asked is, Why do you not believe it?

You believe other narrative prophecy as narrative, why not this one? If it is only because you don't see the same things spelled out in the same words in another passage, for myself, I would never think to say such a thing. If God says something even once, that is sufficient.

You can call this an "interpretation", but that seems kind of odd to me, since the "interpretation" is simply stating what the passage itself says.

An angel comes from heaven, binds Satan for a duration of a thousand years, and seals him in the abyss. After the 1000 years, Satan is released for a short season. If that constitutes an "interpretation", what should we call a description of this passage that doesn't hold to the stated propositions?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I replied: "But everyone who is not in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the earth take the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:8 and 17:8)."

I guess you’re making an assumption, which I am not making with you.
I don’t assume that no one who goes through the tribulation is in that book. How else would there be martyrs under the altar in heaven who came out of the great tribulation unless they are in the book?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. You just contradicted what you previously said. This is as clear as mud.

You said: "I think some of them are humans who survive the great tribulation and don’t take the mark because they come to believe."

I replied: "But everyone who is not in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the earth take the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:8 and 17:8)."

You said: "Correct. Those people take the mark."

I asked: "So, why are the not glorified when Jesus comes with all the rest of the redeemed?"

You said: "I think they were in the first resurrection and have their new glorified bodies…"

So are changing your mind and saying they will now not have "new glorified bodies"?

I am totally confused!

I am just as confused as you are. I still can't tell who exactly she thinks would be the mortals who would populate the earth at Christ's return.