22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,632
4,245
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That’s an astoundingly good question…
I view this as one corroboration. It depicts two different reapings. The first reads as if Jesus reaps the earth and the second one as if an angel/angels do the reaping. I think there are some years in between the two reapings.


14 Then I saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like the Son of Man.He had a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

15 Then another angel came from the Temple and shouted to the one sitting on the cloud, “Swing the sickle, for the time of harvest has come; the crop on earth is ripe.” 16 So the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the whole earth was harvested.

17 After that, another angel came from the Temple in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, who had power to destroy with fire, came from the altar. He shouted to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sickle now to gather the clusters of grapes from the vines of the earth, for they are ripe for judgment.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.

I don't know where you get that from. I have just realized you are Pretrib. That explains a lot about what you bare teaching! The text you presnt does not support your claims.

· There is nowhere in Scripture that talk about "resurrection days" (plural).
· There is nowhere in Scripture that talk about "judgement days" (plural).

Acts 17:30-31 reinforces my supposition: “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

Peter testifies in 1 Peter 4:1-5 that there are two distinct types of people, (1) the righteous; whom Christ “suffered for” and who “no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God” and (2) the wicked who “think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you.” All of whom, Peter says, shall give account to him (Christ) that is ready to judge the quick (or the living) and the dead (1 Peter 4:5).

This phrase the “quick and the dead” or the ‘living and the dead’, which comes up a few times in the New Testament, is so totally all-inclusive and unequivocal that one can’t imagine the Holy Spirit employing a more explicit expression to describe the full amount of all mankind. This plain saying unquestionably encompasses the complete amount of Adam’s race – of all time. Every single person conceived from Adam must undoubtedly fall into one category or the other.

Peter testifies in Acts 10:42 to the fact that everyone will stand before the great Judge – Christ – and that he (Christ) commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.”

Every man woman and child will therefore stand before the great Judge of all judges. Notwithstanding, whilst, most Bible students accept this fact, the Premillennialist wrongly tries to argue that the wicked and the righteous will stand before God on two distinct Judgment Days, at two distinct times, separated by over a thousand years, despite there being not one verse in Scripture to support such a notion. This includes their beloved Revelation 20 that only records one judgment of “the dead” that occurs immediately after Gog and Magog comes against the saints and, like elsewhere in Scripture, coincides with the destruction of the wicked and this world and the glorious Second Advent.

2 Timothy 4:1-8 informs us when this glorious (all-inclusive) number will actually stand to account before the throne of God, saying, I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom … there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

Adam’s race – in total – are therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) ‘epifaneian’ (or) appearing and his kingdom.” This is an all-inclusive general judgment. The subjects involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

Jesus said, in the parable of the wheat and tares, in Matthew 13:24-30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field … Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (1) Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but (2) gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (1) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Here, “the end of the world” is expressly linked to the gathering together of the saints by the angels and the complete destruction of the wicked. It is therefore the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when Christ “shall send forth his angels” to reap that one final all-consummating harvest.

The “end of the world” as Premillennialists are quick to remind the Amil/Post-mil is the ‘end of the aioonos’ or the ‘end of the age’. Therefore, both sheep and goats wheat and tares are collectively judged together at the end of this Gospel age.

This symbolic closing scene in the parable of the wheat and tares of time is closely mirrored in Revelation 14:14-20, saying, And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 1) came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel (angel 2) came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 3) came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel (angel 3) thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

This is a clear reference to the harvest that accompanies the second coming at the end of the world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,906
4,496
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As this is the plain reading of the passage,

Revelation 20:1-3 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The question to be asked is, Why do you not believe it?
The plain reading? LOL. So, do you disagree with Paul that scripture must be spiritually discerned, as he wrote about in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16? It's just all "plain reading"? In the highly symbolic book of Revelation? No.

Do you agree with the plain reading of this passage:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Jesus plainly said that there is a singular time coming when all of the dead will be raised. So, there will be one time or one event when all of the dead are raised and not two times when the dead are raised, as you believe. Why do you not believe in the plain reading of this passage?
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,057
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No. You just contradicted what you previously said. This is as clear as mud.

You said: "I think some of them are humans who survive the great tribulation and don’t take the mark because they come to believe."

I replied: "But everyone who is not in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the earth take the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:8 and 17:8)."

You said: "Correct. Those people take the mark."

I asked: "So, why are the not glorified when Jesus comes with all the rest of the redeemed?"

You said: "I think they were in the first resurrection and have their new glorified bodies…"

So are changing your mind and saying they will now not have "new glorified bodies"?

I am totally confused!
Maybe the disconnect is in this - I believe an order of:
1. The gathering together in the air
2. Tribulation
3. Satan bound
4. The thousand years
5. Satan released and gathers an army, army destroyed.
6. Judgement
7. New heavens and earth

I place verses within that framework. So…if you’re trying to understand me, you have to keep that in mind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,632
4,245
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I guess you’re making an assumption, which I am not making with you.
I don’t assume that no one who goes through the tribulation is in that book. How else would there be martyrs under the altar in heaven who came out of the great tribulation unless they are in the book?

Because they are in heaven now. Hello!

You are not addressing the contradiction. You are avoiding it.

Who are these so-called mortals that overrun your future millennium as the sand of the sea? Who are they? You agreed all the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes. So, who are they? What qualifies them to escape the wrath of God when Jesus comes and what hinders them from being glorified when Jesus comes?
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,632
4,245
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Maybe the disconnect is in this - I believe an order of:
1. The gathering together in the air
2. Tribulation
3. Satan bound
4. The thousand years
5. Satan released and gathers an army, army destroyed.
6. Judgement
7. New heavens and earth

I place verses within that framework. So…if you’re trying to understand me, you have to keep that in mind.

The plot thickens. So, you now believe billions of wicked survive the coming of the Lord. This is getting even more confusing. Honestly. You are going to have to study this better before going public with your beliefs.

You are going in circles.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,057
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Here is what you said in post #311

So, you're saying the answer to the following questions can be found in that post:
  1. Are there any mortals in your future millennium?
  2. If yes, who are they? Are they saved or unsaved?
The last thing you said was "I think these will rule and reign with Christ and are no longer mortal". So, does this mean you're saying you don't believe there will be mortals on the earth during that time? If not, then who exactly are you saying will be mortal at that point and are they saved or unsaved? I can't tell from what you said since I'm not sure if "these" who rule and reign was a reference to all of the survivors you had mentioned before that or just some of them, with the rest being mortals.

The ones I said are found worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the whole world are the ones of the first resurrection/reaping/gathering/rapture, who have glorified bodies. I didn’t mean those who survive the tribulation have glorified bodies yet.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,906
4,496
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Maybe the disconnect is in this - I believe an order of:
1. The gathering together in the air
2. Tribulation
3. Satan bound
4. The thousand years
5. Satan released and gathers an army, army destroyed.
6. Judgement
7. New heavens and earth

I place verses within that framework. So…if you’re trying to understand me, you have to keep that in mind.
I didn't realize you were pre-trib, so that's why I was confused about what you believe regarding who populates the earth during the thousand years. I thought you were Post-trib.

Pre-tribs would typically say that they believe the mortals who survive the second coming of Christ are the "tribulation saints". Is that how you see it?

The ones I said are found worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the whole world are the ones of the first resurrection/reaping/gathering/rapture, who have glorified bodies. I didn’t mean those who survive the tribulation have glorified bodies yet.
So, the answer to the question of who the mortals would be in a future millennium, in your view, would be "those who survived the tribulation", right?

If so, I think we probably should address your pre-trib belief at this point instead of going any further discussing your premill belief.
 
Last edited:

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,632
4,245
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The ones I said are found worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the whole world are the ones of the first resurrection/reaping/gathering/rapture, who have glorified bodies. I didn’t mean those who survive the tribulation have glorified bodies yet.

I hope you understand what you believe because I do not. I have presented Scriptures that forbid your claims. They remain unaddressed (as usual). The wicked are immediately and totally destroyed when Jesus appears. How can one survive?

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then describes a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious second coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,057
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who are these so-called mortals that overrun your future millennium as the sand of the sea? Who are they? You agreed all the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes. So, who are they?

I told you who I think they are. Humans who survive the tribulation…
As for agreeing that all the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes, yes and no as to whether I agree with you on it! Yes, the wicked are destroyed at the end of the tribulation. But they are destroyed again after a thousand years of repopulation of the earth and the releasing of satan, if they join with him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,703
24,033
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The plain reading? LOL. So, do you disagree with Paul that scripture must be spiritually discerned, as he wrote about in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16? It's just all "plain reading"? In the highly symbolic book of Revelation? No.
This is your objection? OK then.

"All plain reading"? Was that what I said? No it was not. What do we call this then?

I'll ask you the same question I ask others . . . You believe other narrative prophecy as just that, why not this?

Are you saying Everything is the Revelation is a symbol for something else, that there is NO narrative prophecy in the Revelation? If so, that's one thing, but if not, then why not receive this part as narrative prophecy?

And no, I don't disagree with Paul on that, maybe his point is being proven out right here.

Something I've found as I've learned the deeper meanings of the Bible, these things never in the least bit contradict what the words themselves say.

Do you agree with the plain reading of this passage:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Jesus plainly said that there is a singular time coming when all of the dead will be raised. So, there will be one time or one event when all of the dead are raised and not two times when the dead are raised, as you believe. Why do you not believe in the plain reading of this passage?

Not sure what translation you are using there, the word is not actually "time", it's "hour".

John used the same word here,

1 John 2:18 LITV
18) Little children, it is a last hour, and as you heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up, from which you know that it is a last hour.

John 16:2 LITV
2) They will put you out of the synagogue, but an hour is coming that everyone killing you will think to bear a service before God.

Regardless . . . you are proposing a single moment in time in which all the dead are raised, all the living believers glorified, all the living unbelievers killed, and added to the ranks of the dead, this is correct?

My first though is that in John's use of the word, he sometimes meant a particular time as shown on a clock, and other times he meant a "season", as it is translated. "The last hour", written not quite 2000 years ago.

Not "time", chronos, rather "hour", hora.

Do you see this resurrection happening in Matthew 24:31? As Jesus gathers the elect? Or do you see that something else?

What are the 1335 days in Daniel?

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,703
24,033
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)
Seems pretty clear!

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,906
4,496
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I told you who I think they are. Humans who survive the tribulation…
As for agreeing that all the wicked are destroyed when Jesus comes, yes and no as to whether I agree with you on it! Yes, the wicked are destroyed at the end of the tribulation. But they are destroyed again after a thousand years of repopulation of the earth and the releasing of satan, if they join with him.
Notice how a very similar scenario is described at the end of Revelation 19 and 20. So, will history basically repeat itself or are those speaking of the same event? Have you ever considered that there are multiple parallel sections in the book of Revelation rather than it being all (or mostly) chronological from beginning to end?
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,057
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Pre-tribs would typically say that they believe the mortals who survive the second coming of Christ are the "tribulation saints". Is that how you see it?

I guess so…if they refused the mark and weren’t beheaded for it and survived the 7 years. Maybe some didn’t take the mark, survived, but still don’t truly believe for all I know.
But I really don’t agree with men concerning Gods judgement. I think He is more merciful than they portray with their doctrines. So that comes into play in places too and might confuse our discussion. For instance, I think there are 4 types of men.
The wicked/those doing great harm
The filthy
The righteous
The holy.

I don’t think the wicked and the filthy always receive the same exact punishment. And I don’t think the righteous and the holy receive the exact same rewards.
 
Last edited:

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
36,703
24,033
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, you're saying the answer to the following questions can be found in that post:
  1. Are there any mortals in your future millennium?
  2. If yes, who are they? Are they saved or unsaved?

@ stunnedbygrace said:
Well…I think some of them are humans who survive the great tribulation and don’t take the mark because they come to believe, either by seeing things take place they heard of or by the preaching of the two witnesses, some are those who were left behind not counted worthy to escape it but needing more testing of their trust. I also think those who were found worthy to escape that time of trouble are there, along with all others who were resurrected in the first resurrection. I think these will rule and reign with Christ and are no longer mortal.


She answered you. There are human survivors who have come to believe. That's what you were asking, right?

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,906
4,496
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)
So, it seems that you're saying that you believe Revelation 14:14-16 is referring to the first resurrection and Revelation 14:18-20 is referring to the same event as Revelation 20:11-15?

Why wouldn't you relate this:

Revelation 14:18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.

to this:

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Also, you should be aware that Jesus taught the saved and the lost will all be harvested at the same time, which contradicts your interpretation of Revelation 14:14-20.

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
 
Last edited:

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,057
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't know where you get that from. I have just realized you are Pretrib.

You are the second person who just realized that. It shocked me to hear. But I differ from most pretribbers on a lot. I do though believe in a gathering together before Gods wrath. I just don’t see it exactly as most of them.
In my defense, I did say upon entering the thread that I think ALL the systematic eschatologies have some things wrong and some pieces right.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.