22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[marks]

I hope you understand what you believe because I do not. I have presented Scriptures that forbid your claims. They remain unaddressed (as usual). The wicked are immediately and totally destroyed when Jesus appears. How can one survive?

Matthew 25:31-34 LITV
31) But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32) And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33) And indeed He will set the sheep off His right, but the goats off the left hand.
34) Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, the blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:41 LITV
41) Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 LITV
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So, it seems that you're saying that you believe Revelation 14:14-16 is referring to the first resurrection and Revelation 14:18-20 is referring to the same event as Revelation 20:11-15?

Yes. (But I don’t think everyone from the second resurrection is destroyed as others suppose.)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is your objection? OK then.

"All plain reading"? Was that what I said? No it was not. What do we call this then?

I'll ask you the same question I ask others . . . You believe other narrative prophecy as just that, why not this?

Are you saying Everything is the Revelation is a symbol for something else, that there is NO narrative prophecy in the Revelation? If so, that's one thing, but if not, then why not receive this part as narrative prophecy?

Because interpreting it the way you do contradicts other scripture. Why would I want to interpret that passage in such a way that contradicts my interpretation of many other passages? I don't assume any given verse or passage is literal or symbolic before studying it. I look at the context and I keep the rest of scripture in mind when interpreting it.

Not sure what translation you are using there, the word is not actually "time", it's "hour".

John used the same word here,

1 John 2:18 LITV
18) Little children, it is a last hour, and as you heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up, from which you know that it is a last hour.

John 16:2 LITV
2) They will put you out of the synagogue, but an hour is coming that everyone killing you will think to bear a service before God.

Regardless . . . you are proposing a single moment in time in which all the dead are raised, all the living believers glorified, all the living unbelievers killed, and added to the ranks of the dead, this is correct?

My first though is that in John's use of the word, he sometimes meant a particular time as shown on a clock, and other times he meant a "season", as it is translated. "The last hour", written not quite 2000 years ago.

Not "time", chronos, rather "hour", hora.

So much for a plain reading of that text. What you're saying would mean you're interpreting the passage as if it said this:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a long time period is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live at the beginning of that long time period, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned at the end of that long time period.

That comes across as complete nonsense. That is clearly not what He was saying. Other scripture indicates that all people will be judged at the same time, such as Acts 17:31, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. So, it only follows that all of the dead would be resurrected at around the same time in order to be judged at the same time.

Do you see this resurrection happening in Matthew 24:31? As Jesus gathers the elect? Or do you see that something else?

Yes, I believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen immediately upon His arrival "in the air" at which point we will be gathered to Him and then He will destroy all of the wicked on the earth and the unsaved dead will be resurrected as well at that time. And then the judgment occurs.

What are the 1335 days in Daniel?

I am not certain. Why do you ask?

 

[WPM]

You are the second person who just realized that. It shocked me to hear. But I differ from most pretribbers on a lot. I do though believe in a gathering together before Gods wrath. I just don’t see it exactly as most of them.
In my defense, I did say upon entering the thread that I think ALL the systematic eschatologies have some things wrong and some pieces right.

You need to address the Scripture and arguments I presented that forbid your argument. It is pointless continuing if you refuse. You cannot just dismiss it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Why wouldn't you relate this:

Revelation 19:18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.

to this:

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Because I believe the first one you give is the second reaping, after the thousand years and I believe the second one you give is destruction of the wicked after the tribulation. So I don’t relate them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. (But I don’t think everyone from the second resurrection is destroyed as others suppose.)

When you say "destroyed" you mean cast into the lake of fire, right? If Premill was true, then obviously any believers who died during the thousand years would need to be resurrected after the thousand years, so I'm not sure why any Premill would believe otherwise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because I believe the first one you give is the second reaping, after the thousand years and I believe the second one you give is destruction of the wicked after the tribulation. So I don’t relate them.

Honestly, it seems kind of convenient that you would not relate two passages together that both speak of the treading of the winepress of God's wrath. I don't believe it makes any sense to think that the winepress of God's wrath will come down more than once on the earth in the future.

Can you see in Matthew 13:36-43 that Jesus talked about the righteous and wicked both being reaped at the end of the age? How do you reconcile that with your understanding of Revelation 14:14-20?

How do you interpret this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth an everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

 

[marks]

Because interpreting it the way you do contradicts other scripture. Why would I want to interpret that passage in such a way that contradicts my interpretation of many other passages?

Maybe the thing to do is examine where you find what seems a contradiction, and find the interpretation that preserves the meanings of both places, and doesn't overthrow one of them.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a long time period is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

You shouldn't try to put words in my mouth, you do not do so correctly.

That comes across as complete nonsense. That is clearly not what He was saying. Other scripture indicates that all people will be judged at the same time, such as Acts 17:31, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. So, it only follows that all of the dead would be resurrected at around the same time in order to be judged at the same time.

Nonsense because you've written a Straw Man.

Revelation 20:4-5 LITV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

Simply stated.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You need to address the Scripture and arguments I presented that forbid your argument.

okay. I have to address them this way then - I find your interpretation of scripture to be wrong in many places and so I find your arguments to be wrong. You have some assumptions built in to your framework that I just don’t have, because I’m not out to defend my current understanding but rather to expand on it. And you’re getting slightly cranked up, so I’m not sure how much further we will be able to go

 

[marks]

I am not certain. Why do you ask?

A question to ask yourself.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 25:31-34 LITV
31) But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32) And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33) And indeed He will set the sheep off His right, but the goats off the left hand.
34) Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, the blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:41 LITV
41) Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 LITV
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Much love!

What is the point you were intending to make by bringing up these verses?

 

[marks]

Yes, I believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen immediately upon His arrival "in the air" at which point we will be gathered to Him and then He will destroy all of the wicked on the earth and the unsaved dead will be resurrected as well at that time. And then the judgment occurs.

What do you make of this?

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Are these then the same gathering, in the same moment when Jesus comes in power and great glory?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A question to ask yourself.

You asked the question. If you can't even tell me why you asked it, then what is the point of us even discussing these things? Do you not have any thoughts on the rest of what I said in that post?

 

[Truth7t7]

I do agree that not much description or detail of that thousand years is given in that particular passage. It just doesn’t go into it but just affirms that it occurs, a thousand years.

Revelation 20:1-6 mentions a (Thousand Years) but is sure doesn't show a kingdom on this earth with mortal humans present as many millennialist teach and believe

The picture shown is 100% in the Lord's spiritual realm of no earthly time, where one day is a thousand years, not literal earthly time

Angel, Heaven, Devil, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ, 100% Spiritual realm

 

[marks]

You asked the question. If you can't even tell me why you asked it, then what is the point of us even discussing these things?

We're not there yet.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What is the point you were intending to make by bringing up these verses?

Paul Malcomson said: ↑
I hope you understand what you believe because I do not. I have presented Scriptures that forbid your claims. They remain unaddressed (as usual). The wicked are immediately and totally destroyed when Jesus appears. How can one survive?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you make of this?

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Are these then the same gathering, in the same moment when Jesus comes in power and great glory?

Not exactly, though I believe both refer to the same future second coming of Christ. What I mean is what I already said before, which was that I believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen immediately upon His arrival "in the air" (that's what Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to) at which point we (those who are alive and remain as well as the resurrected and changed dead in Christ) will be gathered to Him and then He will destroy all of the wicked on the earth and then the unsaved dead will be resurrected as well at that time. And then the judgment occurs where all people, saved and lost, are gathered before the throne and then separated into two groups.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul Malcomson said: ↑
I hope you understand what you believe because I do not. I have presented Scriptures that forbid your claims. They remain unaddressed (as usual). The wicked are immediately and totally destroyed when Jesus appears. How can one survive?

And how exactly do you think the verses you quoted from Matthew 25 answer that question? Why is it so hard to get a straight answer from you?

 

[marks]

Not exactly, though I believe both refer to the same future second coming of Christ. What I mean is what I already said before, which was that I believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen immediately upon His arrival "in the air" (that's what Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to) at which point we (those who are alive and remain as well as the resurrected and changed dead in Christ) will be gathered to Him and then He will destroy all of the wicked on the earth and then the unsaved dead will be resurrected as well at that time. And then the judgment occurs where all people, saved and lost, are gathered before the throne and then separated into two groups.

So then, you believe in two resurrections, only you shorten the time between them?

Or in the same moment, all will be resurrected? I guess I'm seeing both in your answer. Could you clarify that for me?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And how exactly do you think the verses you quoted from Matthew 25 answer that question?

Those who survive the judgment are welcomed into the kingdom.

Much love!