Why I Am a Cessationist

[ChristisGod]

For myself, I see a difference between the "signs and wonders"/works of an Apostle and the ministry gifts. I think God gave certain gifts to His Apostles to authenticate their ministries, as with Jesus. And I think God still gives certain gifts so we will minister according to His power.

Much love!

Yep

 

[ChristisGod]

You and many others have a "hotline from heaven" claiming to hear directly from God or hear some kind of "voice" and cannot live without these voices or portents.
You have a blessed day-keep on listening to whatever "impressions" you may get-the just shall live by faith.
J.

I counted 18 large cut and pastes in this thread from you. Can you make you own argument ?

 

[Johann]

Yes I've seen spiritual gifts/miracles etc being idolized..........to the point where the Spirit of God was grieved enough to depart. I was heart broken. But everything seems to test us I notice. The problem isn't with the things that God does/gives, but is with us.

The problem with analyzing all the trees is that it can blind us from seeing the forest. The natural man can't perceive the things of God but they must be spiritually discerned. Carnal mind is ENMITY with God....so it will tend to oppose Him.

Do you know the difference between Dokimazo and Peiradzo?
Don't think you do and the "commentary" is none other than The Profit of Spiritual Giftswhich you askew!

History of the Berean Bible Society

Sections: History of the Berean Bible Society The Berean Searchlight Pastor Cornelius R. StamFounder, 1940-1993 Pastor Paul M. SadlerPresident, 1987-2016 Pastor Kevin SadlerPresident, 2016-Current History of the Berean Bible Society The Berean Bible Society was founded over seventy-five years a

bereanbiblesociety.org

Do take note-I'm the one staying in control, you are over reacting.
J.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I am not writing on this topic because I have the final answer on spiritual gifts, for the matter is difficult and Christians who love God and the Bible disagree. Readers should know that Sam Storms and I are friends. We love one another, even though we differ on a secondary or tertiary issue, while at the same time upholding the importance of truth. Over the years I’ve become convinced that some of the so-called charismatic gifts are no longer given and that they aren’t a regular feature of life in the church. I am thinking particularly of the the gifts of apostleship, prophecy, tongues, healing, and miracles (and perhaps discernment of spirits).





To put it another way, we don’t have apostles like Paul and Peter and John anymore. They gave us the authoritative teaching by which the church continues to live to this day, and that is the only teaching we will need until Jesus returns. We know that new apostles won’t appear since Paul specifically says he was the last apostle (1 Cor. 15:8). And when James the brother of John died (Acts 12:2), he wasn’t replaced. Apostles, in the technical sense, are restricted to those who have seen the risen Lord and have been commissioned by him, and no one since apostolic times fits such criteria. The apostles were uniquely appointed for the early days of the church to establish orthodox doctrine. There is no warrant, then, for saying there are still apostles today. Indeed, if anyone claims to be an apostle today we should be concerned, for such a claim opens the door to false teaching and to abuse of authority.

If the gift of apostleship has ended, then other gifts may have ceased as well, since the foundation has been laid by the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20). I conclude from this point that the gift of prophecy has ended also, for the prophets identified here are the same sort mentioned elsewhere (cf. 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 3:5; 4:11). The early churches didn’t have the complete canon of Scripture for some time, and hence an authoritative and infallible prophetic ministry was needed to lay the foundation for the church in those early days.

The most significant biblical argument against what I’m saying is the claim that New Testament (NT) prophecy differs from Old Testament (OT) prophecy, for some say OT prophecy is flawless but NT prophecy is mixed with error. But the idea that NT prophets could make mistakes isn’t persuasive for several reasons. 1.) The burden of proof is on those who say prophecy in the NT is of a different nature than prophecy in the OT. Prophets in the OT were only considered prophets of God if they were infallible (Deut. 18:15-22), and the same is almost certainly true in the NT. 2.) The admonition to judge prophecies instead of prophets (1 Cor. 14:29-32; 1 Thess. 5:19-20) is often adduced to show that the gift is different in the NT. But this argument is not convincing, for the only way to judge prophets in both Testaments is by their prophecies. We only know prophets aren’t from God if their prophecies are false or if their words contradict scriptural teaching. 3.) We have no example of a NT prophet who erred. Agabus didn’t make a mistake in prophesying that Paul would be bound by the Jews and handed over to the Romans (Acts 21:10-11). To say he erred demands more precision than prophecies warrant. Furthermore, after Paul was arrested he appealed to the words of Agabus, saying he was handed over to the Romans by the Jews (Acts 28:17), so it’s clear he didn’t think Agabus made a mistake. Agabus spoke the words of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:28; 21:11), so we have no example in the NT of prophets whose prophecies were mixed with error.

Some object that my view of prophecy is off target since there were hundreds and thousands of prophecies in NT times that never made it into the canon. That objection doesn’t convince, however, for the same was true in the OT. Most of the prophecies of Elijah and Elisha were never written down or inscripturated. Or we can think of the 100 prophets spared by Obadiah (1 Kings 18:4). Apparently none of their prophecies was inscripurated. Nevertheless, the prophecies were all completely true and unmixed with error, for otherwise they wouldn’t have been prophets (Deut. 18:15-22). The same principle applies to the prophecies of NT prophets. Their words aren’t recorded for us, but if they were truly prophets then their words were infallible.

What some people today call “prophecies” are actually impressions from God. He can use impressions to guide and lead us, but they aren’t infallible and must always be tested by Scripture. We should also consult with wise counselors before acting on such impressions. I love my charismatic brothers and sisters, but what they call “prophecy” today isn’t actually the biblical gift of prophecy. God-given impressions aren’t the same thing as prophecies.

What About Tongues?
The gift of tongues is a more difficult issue. In Acts (2:1-4; 10:44-48; 19:1-7) this gift signifies that the age of fulfillment has arrived where God’s covenant promises are being realized. First Corinthians 14:1-5 and Acts 2:17-18 also suggest that interpreted (or understood) tongues are equivalent to prophecy. It seems, then, that prophecy and tongues are closely related. If prophecy has passed away, then tongues have likely ended as well. Further, it’s clear from Acts that the gift involves speaking in foreign languages (Acts 2), and Peter emphasizes in the case of Cornelius and his friends that the Gentiles received the same gift as the Jews (Acts 11:16-17).

Nor is it persuasive to say the gift in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is of a different nature (i.e., ecstatic utterances). The word tongues (glōssa) denotes a linguistic code, a structured language, not random and free vocalization. When Paul says no one understands those speaking in tongues because they utter mysteries (1 Cor. 14:2), he isn’t suggesting that the gift is different from what we find in Acts. Those hearing the tongues in Acts understood what was being said because they knew the languages the apostles were speaking. If no one knows the language, then the tongue speaker utters mysteries. Nor does 1 Corinthians 13:1 (tongues of angels) support the notion that the gift of tongues consists of ecstatic utterances. Paul engages in hyperbole in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. He’s clearly exaggerating when referring to the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 13:2), for no one who prophesies knows “all mysteries and all knowledge.”

I believe what’s happening in charismatic circles today regarding tongues is similar to what we saw with prophecy. The gift is redefined to include free vocalization, and then people claim to have the gift described in Scripture. In doing so they redefine the gift to accommodate contemporary experience. So are contemporary tongues demonic, then? I don’t think so. I agree with J. I. Packer that the experience is more a form of psychological relaxation.

Miracles and Healings
What about miracles and healings? First, I believe God still heals and does miraculous things today, and we should pray for such. Scripture isn’t as clear on this matter, and thus these gifts could exist today. Still, the primary function of these gifts was to accredit the gospel message, confirming that Jesus was both Lord and Christ. I doubt the gift of miracles and healings exists today, for it isn’t evident that men and women in our churches have such gifts. Certainly God can and does heal at times, but where are the people with these gifts? Claims for miracles and healings must be verified, just as the people verified the blind man’s healing in John 9. There is a kind of biblically warranted skepticism.

Now, could God in cutting-edge missionary situations grant miracles and signs and wonders to accredit the gospel as he did in apostolic times? Yes. But that’s not the same thing as having these gifts as a regular feature in the ongoing life of the church. If the signs and wonders of the apostles have returned, we should see the blind receiving their sight, the lame walking, and the dead being raised. God heals today (sometimes dramatically), but the healing of colds, the flu, TMJ, stomach, and back problems, and so forth aren’t in the same category as the healings found in the Scriptures. If people truly have the gift of healing and miracles today, they need to demonstrate such by performing the kinds of healings and miracles found in the Bible.

Doesn’t 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 Contradict Your View?
Let’s consider an objection to the notion that some of the gifts have ceased. Doesn’t 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach that the gifts last until Jesus comes again? Certainly this text teaches that the gifts could last until Jesus returns. There’s no definitive teaching in the Bible that they’ve ceased. We might even expect them to last until the second coming. But we see hints from Ephesians 2:20 and other texts that the gifts played a foundational role. I conclude, then, that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 permits but doesn’t require the gifts to continue until the second coming. And the gifts as they are practiced today don’t fit with the biblical description of these gifts.

For reasons like these the Reformers and most of the Protestant tradition until the 20th century believed the gifts had ceased. I conclude that both Scripture and experience verify their judgment on the matter.

Why I Am a Cessationist

Lol
The cessationist believes New York city does not exist because someone told them that.Then asks someone to prove otherwise.
Cessationist only prove they hang out with the wrong people.
Their God is either dead or retired

 

[ChristisGod]

Do you know the difference between Dokimazo and Peiradzo?
Don't think you do and the "commentary" is none other than The Profit of Spiritual Giftswhich you askew!

History of the Berean Bible Society

Sections: History of the Berean Bible Society The Berean Searchlight Pastor Cornelius R. StamFounder, 1940-1993 Pastor Paul M. SadlerPresident, 1987-2016 Pastor Kevin SadlerPresident, 2016-Current History of the Berean Bible Society The Berean Bible Society was founded over seventy-five years a

bereanbiblesociety.org

Do take note-I'm the one staying in control, you are over reacting.
J.

You don't without a cut n paste from a secondary source- the bible alone explains the difference.

I think it would of been difficult for you to be a christian before the internet not having google at your fingertips. You would have to use a bible as your primary source for your beliefs, not the teachings of men.

 

[Johann]

Absolutely we need the scriptures. It's not a case of one or the other though. From the scriptures we learn that God gives gifts to men. And also instruction in how to handle them. And God teaches us hand in hand through experience too. We can learn through experience in the light of God's word.

Personally, I think you need to study some more and not just "dipping" into selective reading of Scriptures.

Biblical Perspective:
Faith and Trust in God: Scripture emphasizes that believers are called to live by faith and trust in God rather than relying solely on personal experiences. For instance:

2 Corinthians 5:7: "For we walk by faith, not by sight."
Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding."

The Role of Experiences: While experiences can serve as confirmations or manifestations of God's presence and work in our lives, they are not the primary basis of faith:

Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Romans 10:17: "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
Discernment of Experiences: Scripture also teaches believers to discern experiences in light of God's Word and to test them against biblical truth:

1 John 4:1: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Theological Perspective:
Authority of Scripture: Many theological traditions affirm the authority of Scripture as the primary source of divine revelation and guidance for faith and practice:

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Balance of Spirit and Word: While experiences such as personal encounters with God, answered prayers, and spiritual gifts are acknowledged, they are understood within the context of God's Word:

1 Corinthians 14:1-40: This chapter discusses the use of spiritual gifts in the church and emphasizes the importance of edification and order in their exercise.
Practical Application:
Submission to God's Will: Believers are encouraged to submit their experiences to God's will and discern His guidance through prayer, study of Scripture, and seeking wise counsel.

Community and Fellowship: Engaging in fellowship with other believers helps in discerning experiences and confirming them within the broader context of the Christian community.

Growth in Faith: As believers mature in their faith, they learn to balance experiences with biblical teachings, recognizing that experiences should align with and affirm the truths revealed in Scripture.

In summary, while experiences can play a role in the Christian walk, believers are ultimately called to live by faith in God and His Word. Experiences should be tested against Scripture and should not supersede the authority of God's revealed truth in guiding beliefs and practices.

Contrary to what you want me to believe @Lizbeth
This is putting the cart before the horse, if I may say so.

 

[Johann]

Hmm, brother, it should be the washing of the water of the word, not the washing of water of men's commentary and reasonings.

You come against a very biblical Church here, may I add, not very kind of you.

Justin Johnson
True spiritual gifts are clearly manifested. Here are a few relevant criteria to identify what kind of gift is in you.

Are you emotional and insecure about your salvation?
You have the gift of tongues.

Do you want to tell people how to live and think?
You have the gift of prophecy.

Are you lazy and destined for great things?
You have the gift of working miracles.

Do you want to talk in church, but are not a good public speaker?
You have the gift of tongues.

Are you outgoing and have an ego at least twice as big as your hair?
You have the gift of healing.

Are you shy and quiet but still attend a Pentecostal charismatic church?
You have the gift of faith.

Are you able to feel the Spirit moving inside you? (The rumble is louder if you fast.)
You have the gift of tongues.

Have you been looking for your gift in the church longer than 5 years and can’t seem to manifest it?
You have the gift of helps.

Can you write movie reviews separating the good from the bad wizards in Harry Potter?
You have the gift of discerning spirits.

Have you made money writing books?
You have the gift of knowledge.

Has this list not identified your gift yet?
You have the gift of tongues.

Can you collect money from people who have already claimed their own gifts?
Congratulations! You are ordained an apostle.

Have you won awards for your singing in large churches and want to glorify God by a music album with your name on it?
You have the privilege of serving God by being America’s next Idol. You are God’s gift to the entire country!

Now, someone with the gift of skepticism may speak up and declare that there are only nine gifts in 1 Cor 12:7-11, and none of them have anything to do with American Idol, but they are wrong.

How do you think American Idol judge Steve Tyler knows how to identify the best Christian singers except by this gift?

“… to another the interpretation of tongues…” – 1 Cor 12:10
Want More?

Paul does say that there is something more excellent than any of the spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:31; 13:13; charity).

Then again, in order to exhibit charity none of the previous selfish criteria for the gifts can exist.

“Charity envieth not…
[Charity] is not puffed up,
[Charity] doth not behave itself unseemly,
[Charity] seeketh not her own,
[Charity] rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth” – 1 Cor 13:4-6
Maybe next season.

History of the Berean Bible Society

Sections: History of the Berean Bible Society The Berean Searchlight Pastor Cornelius R. StamFounder, 1940-1993 Pastor Paul M. SadlerPresident, 1987-2016 Pastor Kevin SadlerPresident, 2016-Current History of the Berean Bible Society The Berean Bible Society was founded over seventy-five years a

bereanbiblesociety.org

 

[ChristisGod]

Personally, I think you need to study some more and not just "dipping" into selective reading of Scriptures.

Biblical Perspective:
Faith and Trust in God: Scripture emphasizes that believers are called to live by faith and trust in God rather than relying solely on personal experiences. For instance:

2 Corinthians 5:7: "For we walk by faith, not by sight."
Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding."

The Role of Experiences: While experiences can serve as confirmations or manifestations of God's presence and work in our lives, they are not the primary basis of faith:

Hebrews 11:1: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Romans 10:17: "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
Discernment of Experiences: Scripture also teaches believers to discern experiences in light of God's Word and to test them against biblical truth:

1 John 4:1: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Theological Perspective:
Authority of Scripture: Many theological traditions affirm the authority of Scripture as the primary source of divine revelation and guidance for faith and practice:

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
Balance of Spirit and Word: While experiences such as personal encounters with God, answered prayers, and spiritual gifts are acknowledged, they are understood within the context of God's Word:

1 Corinthians 14:1-40: This chapter discusses the use of spiritual gifts in the church and emphasizes the importance of edification and order in their exercise.
Practical Application:
Submission to God's Will: Believers are encouraged to submit their experiences to God's will and discern His guidance through prayer, study of Scripture, and seeking wise counsel.

Community and Fellowship: Engaging in fellowship with other believers helps in discerning experiences and confirming them within the broader context of the Christian community.

Growth in Faith: As believers mature in their faith, they learn to balance experiences with biblical teachings, recognizing that experiences should align with and affirm the truths revealed in Scripture.

In summary, while experiences can play a role in the Christian walk, believers are ultimately called to live by faith in God and His Word. Experiences should be tested against Scripture and should not supersede the authority of God's revealed truth in guiding beliefs and practices.

Contrary to what you want me to believe @Lizbeth
This is putting the cart before the horse, if I may say so.

cut n paste let me know when you can make your own argument.

 

[marks]

Maybe if everyone dialed down the personal comments and personal opinions . . .

Just a thought!

Much love!

 

[marks]

cut n paste let me know when you can make your own argument.

He posted some information, you don't have to read it.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

He posted some information, you don't have to read it.

Much love!I

I don't

 

[marks]

Lol
The cessationist believes New York city does not exist because someone told them that.Then asks someone to prove otherwise.
Cessationist only prove they hang out with the wrong people.
Their God is either dead or retired

Seriously? Someone doesn't agree with you on this particular topic so you declare they worship a dead god?

Yuck!

I was really looking forward to returning to this thread this morning, but man! This sure has gone down hill!!

Much love!

 

[Cassandra]

Ezekiel 36:26-27​

​

King James Version​

​

​

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

His judgements and statutes are written in His word.

When we accept Jesus, we become new creatures--we lose our stony heart. We want to do His Will. Everyonr who is saved is given the Holy Spirit. I don't have a problem with that.. The Bible shows us all about Jesus, and what He has done for us, and how we are to treat one another, and obey Him.It also tells us what is going to happen in the future. And the counsel is given to us is clear :

Rev 1:3

 

[marks]

I don't

Continuing . . . do you have to denigrate others?

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

You come against a very biblical Church here, may I add, not very kind of you.

Justin Johnson
True spiritual gifts are clearly manifested. Here are a few relevant criteria to identify what kind of gift is in you.

Are you emotional and insecure about your salvation?
You have the gift of tongues.

Do you want to tell people how to live and think?
You have the gift of prophecy.

Are you lazy and destined for great things?
You have the gift of working miracles.

Do you want to talk in church, but are not a good public speaker?
You have the gift of tongues.

Are you outgoing and have an ego at least twice as big as your hair?
You have the gift of healing.

Are you shy and quiet but still attend a Pentecostal charismatic church?
You have the gift of faith.

Are you able to feel the Spirit moving inside you? (The rumble is louder if you fast.)
You have the gift of tongues.

Have you been looking for your gift in the church longer than 5 years and can’t seem to manifest it?
You have the gift of helps.

Can you write movie reviews separating the good from the bad wizards in Harry Potter?
You have the gift of discerning spirits.

Have you made money writing books?
You have the gift of knowledge.

Has this list not identified your gift yet?
You have the gift of tongues.

Can you collect money from people who have already claimed their own gifts?
Congratulations! You are ordained an apostle.

Have you won awards for your singing in large churches and want to glorify God by a music album with your name on it?
You have the privilege of serving God by being America’s next Idol. You are God’s gift to the entire country!

Now, someone with the gift of skepticism may speak up and declare that there are only nine gifts in 1 Cor 12:7-11, and none of them have anything to do with American Idol, but they are wrong.

How do you think American Idol judge Steve Tyler knows how to identify the best Christian singers except by this gift?

“… to another the interpretation of tongues…” – 1 Cor 12:10
Want More?

Paul does say that there is something more excellent than any of the spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:31; 13:13; charity).

Then again, in order to exhibit charity none of the previous selfish criteria for the gifts can exist.

“Charity envieth not…
[Charity] is not puffed up,
[Charity] doth not behave itself unseemly,
[Charity] seeketh not her own,
[Charity] rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth” – 1 Cor 13:4-6
Maybe next season.

History of the Berean Bible Society

Sections: History of the Berean Bible Society The Berean Searchlight Pastor Cornelius R. StamFounder, 1940-1993 Pastor Paul M. SadlerPresident, 1987-2016 Pastor Kevin SadlerPresident, 2016-Current History of the Berean Bible Society The Berean Bible Society was founded over seventy-five years a

bereanbiblesociety.org

And you think this kind of mockery honors Christ ?

 

[marks]

Whether or not you believe the charismata are for today or not, should you be exhibiting fruit of the Spirit?

If you are walking in the Spirit, your life will show,

Galatians 5:22-26 KJV
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26) Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

If you are not walking in the Spirit, I encourage you to put off the old man and put on the new.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Continuing . . . do you have to denigrate others?

Much love!

did you read the mocking of the gifts of the spirit ?

 

[GTW27]

Perhaps we should be encouraging Johann to believe.

 

[ChristisGod]

Whether or not you believe the charismata are for today or not, should you be exhibiting fruit of the Spirit?

If you are walking in the Spirit, your life will show,

Galatians 5:22-26 KJV
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26) Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

If you are not walking in the Spirit, I encourage you to put off the old man and put on the new.

Much love!

tell that to the one who quoted MacArthur who attributes all the modern charasmatic gifts to satan .

so anyone who speaks in tongues is speaking from the devil, not God.

tell that to all your charismatic brothers and sisters.

is that the fruit of the spirit ?

 

[marks]

tell that to the one who quoted MacArthur who attributes all the modern charasmatic gifts to satan .

so anyone who speaks in tongues is speaking from the devil, not God.

tell that to all your charismatic brothers and sisters.

is that the fruit of the spirit ?

Deflection.

Much love!