Why I Am a Cessationist

[Johann]

and that He had converted to Christianity when the risen Jesus appeared to him in his locked room one night, showed him his nail-pierced wrists, and told him that he would now be following a new religion and starting churches.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 - "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 - "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?'— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him."

Jeremiah 23:25-26 - "I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in my name, saying, 'I have dreamed, I have dreamed!' How long shall there be lies in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies, and who prophesy the deceit of their own heart?"

Jeremiah 23:32 - "Behold, I am against those who prophesy lying dreams, declares the Lord, and who tell them and lead my people astray by their lies and their recklessness, when I did not send them or charge them. So they do not profit this people at all, declares the Lord."

Ezekiel 13:9 - "My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord God."

New Testament:

Matthew 24:24 - "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Mark 13:22 - "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect."

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 - "The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

Revelation 13:13-14 - "It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived."

Revelation 16:14 - "For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty."

These passages highlight the warnings against false prophets and deceptive signs that will attempt to lead people away from the truth and true worship of God. They emphasize discernment and adherence to God's word as the standard for evaluating spiritual claims and manifestations.

Did you ask him these questions?
What is your understanding of Jesus Christ and His work of salvation?

Look for answers that affirm Jesus as the Son of God, His death on the cross for sin, and His resurrection.
How do you interpret and apply Scripture in your teachings?

False prophets may twist Scripture or selectively use verses to fit their own agenda rather than the true meaning of God's Word.
Can you provide evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in your life?

Galatians 5:22-23 lists the fruit of the Spirit as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. A true prophet should exhibit these qualities.
What is the source of your authority and teachings?

False prophets may claim authority based on personal experiences, visions, or revelations that contradict or undermine Scripture.
Do your prophecies and predictions come true consistently?

Deuteronomy 18:22 warns that a prophet whose predictions do not come true is not from God.
How do you handle correction or criticism from other believers?

False prophets may react defensively or aggressively to correction and may not be open to accountability.
What is your attitude toward money and material wealth?

False prophets often have a greedy pursuit of financial gain and may exploit their followers for personal enrichment.
How do you treat the vulnerable and marginalized in society?

True prophets advocate for justice and compassion, while false prophets may neglect or exploit the needy.
Do you promote unity and peace within the body of Christ?

False prophets may cause division or promote teachings that lead to discord among believers.
Can you provide testimonies or evidence of transformed lives through your ministry?

True prophets' ministries bear fruit in changed lives that reflect God's truth and love.
These questions are designed to help discern whether someone claiming to be a prophet or teacher aligns with biblical principles and exhibits the characteristics of a true servant of God.

J.

 

[GTW27]

I can answer these together.

Yes. That was his testimony. He was the founder of several churches in Nepal, and was traveling through America at someone's invitation. His testimony was that He had been a leader in another religion, and that He had converted to Christianity when the risen Jesus appeared to him in his locked room one night, showed him his nail-pierced wrists, and told him that he would now be following a new religion and starting churches.


He didn't attend my church. He stayed a night at a friend's house. He was passing through and needed a place to stay for a night. They had an extra room and a common acquaintance. We had the privilege of dinner, and conversation which mostly revolved around the happenings at the latest church he had founded. The sick there were healed, even the dead raised. We got to see his camera roll. He wondered why this did not happen at the churches here in America. In his country, he was... pursued... by the government there, which is not friendly to Christianity, or missionaries.

A point of interest - at no point did he ever call himself "apostle" or "prophet" or any title other than pastor. It wasn't until a day later when I was talking with my friend that we both tentatively raised the same point and agreed that he met all the criteria to be an apostle - that is, he had received a commission from the risen Lord to go start churches. I think it was you that correctly gave this as the definition of an apostle in this topic.

Indeed! And when they ask John if he was the prophet He said "no".

 

[Wick Stick]

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 - "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul."

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 - "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?'— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him."

Jeremiah 23:25-26 - "I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in my name, saying, 'I have dreamed, I have dreamed!' How long shall there be lies in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies, and who prophesy the deceit of their own heart?"

Jeremiah 23:32 - "Behold, I am against those who prophesy lying dreams, declares the Lord, and who tell them and lead my people astray by their lies and their recklessness, when I did not send them or charge them. So they do not profit this people at all, declares the Lord."

Ezekiel 13:9 - "My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord God."

New Testament:

Matthew 24:24 - "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Mark 13:22 - "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect."

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 - "The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

Revelation 13:13-14 - "It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived."

Revelation 16:14 - "For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty."

These passages highlight the warnings against false prophets and deceptive signs that will attempt to lead people away from the truth and true worship of God. They emphasize discernment and adherence to God's word as the standard for evaluating spiritual claims and manifestations.

Did you ask him these questions?
What is your understanding of Jesus Christ and His work of salvation?

Look for answers that affirm Jesus as the Son of God, His death on the cross for sin, and His resurrection.
How do you interpret and apply Scripture in your teachings?

False prophets may twist Scripture or selectively use verses to fit their own agenda rather than the true meaning of God's Word.
Can you provide evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in your life?

Galatians 5:22-23 lists the fruit of the Spirit as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. A true prophet should exhibit these qualities.
What is the source of your authority and teachings?

False prophets may claim authority based on personal experiences, visions, or revelations that contradict or undermine Scripture.
Do your prophecies and predictions come true consistently?

Deuteronomy 18:22 warns that a prophet whose predictions do not come true is not from God.
How do you handle correction or criticism from other believers?

False prophets may react defensively or aggressively to correction and may not be open to accountability.
What is your attitude toward money and material wealth?

False prophets often have a greedy pursuit of financial gain and may exploit their followers for personal enrichment.
How do you treat the vulnerable and marginalized in society?

True prophets advocate for justice and compassion, while false prophets may neglect or exploit the needy.
Do you promote unity and peace within the body of Christ?

False prophets may cause division or promote teachings that lead to discord among believers.
Can you provide testimonies or evidence of transformed lives through your ministry?

True prophets' ministries bear fruit in changed lives that reflect God's truth and love.
These questions are designed to help discern whether someone claiming to be a prophet or teacher aligns with biblical principles and exhibits the characteristics of a true servant of God.

J.

I wish you were more concise.

No, I didn't give him the third degree. He was a houseguest. He never claimed to be a prophet, nor did he foretell anything. He didn't claim to be an apostle either... only shared his testimony, and the works that were being done BY GOD in his home country. It is only ME (and my friend) that put that title on him, and that was done reluctantly.

My friend and I asked a few questions of doctrine, and found that he was not interested in the finer points of debate. His answers were satisfactory if simple, and mostly of the form, "what Jesus did..."

 

[marks]

Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Unless we've all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, does this not mean Christ still gives us apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor/teachers?

Much love!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I wrote this originally for Facebook posting and Blogging for dealing with both Seventh Day Adventists and Pentecostal and Charismatic protestants who tend to assume Cessationsim with the fellow Christians they disagree with.


Position on the Gifts of the Spirit and New Testament Prophetic ministries

I am not a Cessationist. I do not believe there is an iron clad case to be made that the gift of prophecy and other supernatural signs and wonders etc. have passed away. In fact, I can point to good reasons and Bible verses why that is or should not be the case. However, this is also a far cry from supporting the claims of the many modern groups like many "prophets" of the modern charismatic movement and related movements, as well as people like Ellen White, Joseph Smith and so on. There still are many tests, as far as judging prophets and their prophecy before one should accept such things!

Besides this, I will also note based on the New Testament, when the scripture talks about the Church built "on the foundation of prophets and apostles" (Ephesians 2:20), on the prophet side of things it is more referring to the Old Testament prophets than folks like Agabus, saint John Divine, the itinerant ministers of the Didache etc. This is because the Old Testament prophets wrote "the Bible" that the Church used for the first 4 centuries! (The time it took to agree on the Common Received New Testament canon we now have and enjoy today). Until then the Church was doing the saint Paul / Justin Martyr thing of preaching Christ from the Old Testament Types and Shadows and using books like the Septuagint and original (OT only) Peshitta/ Peshitto as their reference (besides the older one-off
ancient scrolls and papyri lying around).

 

[Lizbeth]

I just think who am I to tell the Lord God Almighty what He may or may not do or when, where or how.

The problem though is always that He pours out His Spirit into imperfect and often immature vessels. Nothing wrong with what HE gives, but the fault is always with us. So that is why we need to be sober-minded...........be thankful but keep our eyes fixed on HIM, and not be distracted and overawed by whatever miracles or signs are going on. When the disciples came back all excited because of the miracles they were doing, Jesus splashed a little cold water on them to set them straight by telling them to rejoice rather that their names were written in heaven.

 

[marks]

I just think who am I to tell the Lord God Almighty what He may or may not do or when, where or how.

The problem though is always that He pours out His Spirit into imperfect and often immature vessels. Nothing wrong with what HE gives, but the fault is always with us. So that is why we need to be sober-minded...........be thankful but keep our eyes fixed on HIM, and not be distracted and overawed by whatever miracles or signs are going on. When the disciples came back all excited because of the miracles they were doing, Jesus splashed a little cold water on them to set them straight by telling them to rejoice rather that their names were written in heaven.

I've learned the same . . . don't limit God. And again, don't let the shiny things draw one's eyes away from the Giver. It's all about becoming more like Jesus, which happens the more we know Him. Obeying Him is the surest and quickest way to know Him.

Much love!

 

[Truther]

I am not writing on this topic because I have the final answer on spiritual gifts, for the matter is difficult and Christians who love God and the Bible disagree. Readers should know that Sam Storms and I are friends. We love one another, even though we differ on a secondary or tertiary issue, while at the same time upholding the importance of truth. Over the years I’ve become convinced that some of the so-called charismatic gifts are no longer given and that they aren’t a regular feature of life in the church. I am thinking particularly of the the gifts of apostleship, prophecy, tongues, healing, and miracles (and perhaps discernment of spirits).





To put it another way, we don’t have apostles like Paul and Peter and John anymore. They gave us the authoritative teaching by which the church continues to live to this day, and that is the only teaching we will need until Jesus returns. We know that new apostles won’t appear since Paul specifically says he was the last apostle (1 Cor. 15:8). And when James the brother of John died (Acts 12:2), he wasn’t replaced. Apostles, in the technical sense, are restricted to those who have seen the risen Lord and have been commissioned by him, and no one since apostolic times fits such criteria. The apostles were uniquely appointed for the early days of the church to establish orthodox doctrine. There is no warrant, then, for saying there are still apostles today. Indeed, if anyone claims to be an apostle today we should be concerned, for such a claim opens the door to false teaching and to abuse of authority.

If the gift of apostleship has ended, then other gifts may have ceased as well, since the foundation has been laid by the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20). I conclude from this point that the gift of prophecy has ended also, for the prophets identified here are the same sort mentioned elsewhere (cf. 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 3:5; 4:11). The early churches didn’t have the complete canon of Scripture for some time, and hence an authoritative and infallible prophetic ministry was needed to lay the foundation for the church in those early days.

The most significant biblical argument against what I’m saying is the claim that New Testament (NT) prophecy differs from Old Testament (OT) prophecy, for some say OT prophecy is flawless but NT prophecy is mixed with error. But the idea that NT prophets could make mistakes isn’t persuasive for several reasons. 1.) The burden of proof is on those who say prophecy in the NT is of a different nature than prophecy in the OT. Prophets in the OT were only considered prophets of God if they were infallible (Deut. 18:15-22), and the same is almost certainly true in the NT. 2.) The admonition to judge prophecies instead of prophets (1 Cor. 14:29-32; 1 Thess. 5:19-20) is often adduced to show that the gift is different in the NT. But this argument is not convincing, for the only way to judge prophets in both Testaments is by their prophecies. We only know prophets aren’t from God if their prophecies are false or if their words contradict scriptural teaching. 3.) We have no example of a NT prophet who erred. Agabus didn’t make a mistake in prophesying that Paul would be bound by the Jews and handed over to the Romans (Acts 21:10-11). To say he erred demands more precision than prophecies warrant. Furthermore, after Paul was arrested he appealed to the words of Agabus, saying he was handed over to the Romans by the Jews (Acts 28:17), so it’s clear he didn’t think Agabus made a mistake. Agabus spoke the words of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:28; 21:11), so we have no example in the NT of prophets whose prophecies were mixed with error.

Some object that my view of prophecy is off target since there were hundreds and thousands of prophecies in NT times that never made it into the canon. That objection doesn’t convince, however, for the same was true in the OT. Most of the prophecies of Elijah and Elisha were never written down or inscripturated. Or we can think of the 100 prophets spared by Obadiah (1 Kings 18:4). Apparently none of their prophecies was inscripurated. Nevertheless, the prophecies were all completely true and unmixed with error, for otherwise they wouldn’t have been prophets (Deut. 18:15-22). The same principle applies to the prophecies of NT prophets. Their words aren’t recorded for us, but if they were truly prophets then their words were infallible.

What some people today call “prophecies” are actually impressions from God. He can use impressions to guide and lead us, but they aren’t infallible and must always be tested by Scripture. We should also consult with wise counselors before acting on such impressions. I love my charismatic brothers and sisters, but what they call “prophecy” today isn’t actually the biblical gift of prophecy. God-given impressions aren’t the same thing as prophecies.

What About Tongues?
The gift of tongues is a more difficult issue. In Acts (2:1-4; 10:44-48; 19:1-7) this gift signifies that the age of fulfillment has arrived where God’s covenant promises are being realized. First Corinthians 14:1-5 and Acts 2:17-18 also suggest that interpreted (or understood) tongues are equivalent to prophecy. It seems, then, that prophecy and tongues are closely related. If prophecy has passed away, then tongues have likely ended as well. Further, it’s clear from Acts that the gift involves speaking in foreign languages (Acts 2), and Peter emphasizes in the case of Cornelius and his friends that the Gentiles received the same gift as the Jews (Acts 11:16-17).

Nor is it persuasive to say the gift in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is of a different nature (i.e., ecstatic utterances). The word tongues (glōssa) denotes a linguistic code, a structured language, not random and free vocalization. When Paul says no one understands those speaking in tongues because they utter mysteries (1 Cor. 14:2), he isn’t suggesting that the gift is different from what we find in Acts. Those hearing the tongues in Acts understood what was being said because they knew the languages the apostles were speaking. If no one knows the language, then the tongue speaker utters mysteries. Nor does 1 Corinthians 13:1 (tongues of angels) support the notion that the gift of tongues consists of ecstatic utterances. Paul engages in hyperbole in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. He’s clearly exaggerating when referring to the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 13:2), for no one who prophesies knows “all mysteries and all knowledge.”

I believe what’s happening in charismatic circles today regarding tongues is similar to what we saw with prophecy. The gift is redefined to include free vocalization, and then people claim to have the gift described in Scripture. In doing so they redefine the gift to accommodate contemporary experience. So are contemporary tongues demonic, then? I don’t think so. I agree with J. I. Packer that the experience is more a form of psychological relaxation.

Miracles and Healings
What about miracles and healings? First, I believe God still heals and does miraculous things today, and we should pray for such. Scripture isn’t as clear on this matter, and thus these gifts could exist today. Still, the primary function of these gifts was to accredit the gospel message, confirming that Jesus was both Lord and Christ. I doubt the gift of miracles and healings exists today, for it isn’t evident that men and women in our churches have such gifts. Certainly God can and does heal at times, but where are the people with these gifts? Claims for miracles and healings must be verified, just as the people verified the blind man’s healing in John 9. There is a kind of biblically warranted skepticism.

Now, could God in cutting-edge missionary situations grant miracles and signs and wonders to accredit the gospel as he did in apostolic times? Yes. But that’s not the same thing as having these gifts as a regular feature in the ongoing life of the church. If the signs and wonders of the apostles have returned, we should see the blind receiving their sight, the lame walking, and the dead being raised. God heals today (sometimes dramatically), but the healing of colds, the flu, TMJ, stomach, and back problems, and so forth aren’t in the same category as the healings found in the Scriptures. If people truly have the gift of healing and miracles today, they need to demonstrate such by performing the kinds of healings and miracles found in the Bible.

Doesn’t 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 Contradict Your View?
Let’s consider an objection to the notion that some of the gifts have ceased. Doesn’t 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach that the gifts last until Jesus comes again? Certainly this text teaches that the gifts could last until Jesus returns. There’s no definitive teaching in the Bible that they’ve ceased. We might even expect them to last until the second coming. But we see hints from Ephesians 2:20 and other texts that the gifts played a foundational role. I conclude, then, that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 permits but doesn’t require the gifts to continue until the second coming. And the gifts as they are practiced today don’t fit with the biblical description of these gifts.

For reasons like these the Reformers and most of the Protestant tradition until the 20th century believed the gifts had ceased. I conclude that both Scripture and experience verify their judgment on the matter.

Why I Am a Cessationist

Not a single one of the gifts of the spirit have ceased because the return of Jesus Christ has not happened yet.

 

[Johann]

Not a single one of the gifts of the spirit have ceased because the return of Jesus Christ has not happened yet.

Believe whatever you wish.

The gifts are to be exercised under the lordship of Christ (1 Cor. 12:1–3). Attention should not be centered on our gifts or our experiences but the supremacy of Christ in all things. People may claim wonderful experiences, but if they aren’t living under Christ’s lordship, their gifts mean very little.

The Sufficiency of Scripture
That is precisely why modern evangelicalism's infatuation with extrabiblical revelation is so dangerous. It is a return to medieval superstition and a departure from our fundamental conviction that the Bible is our sole, supreme, and sufficient authority for all of life. In other words, it represents a wholesale abandonment of the principle of sola Scriptura. Historic Protestantism is grounded in the conviction that the canon is closed. No "new" revelation is necessary because Scripture is complete and absolutely sufficient.

Scripture itself is clear that the day of God's speaking directly to his people through various prophetic words and visions is past. The truth God has revealed in Christ—including the complete New Testament canon—is his final word (Heb. 1:1-2; cf. Jude 3; Rev. 22:18-19).

Scripture—the written Word of God—is perfectly sufficient, containing all the revelation we need. Paul tells Timothy: "From infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:15-17).

That passage makes two very important statements. First, "all Scripture is God-breathed." Scripture speaks with the authority of God himself! It is certain, reliable, and true. Jesus himself prayed in John 17:17, "Your word is truth." Psalm 119:160 says, "All your words are true." These statements set Scripture above every human opinion, every speculation, and every emotional sensation. Scripture alone stands as definitive truth. It speaks with an authority that transcends every other voice.

Second, the passage teaches that Scripture is utterly sufficient, "able to make you wise for salvation" and able to make you "thoroughly equipped for every good work." What clearer affirmation of the absolute sufficiency of Scripture could anyone ask for? Those who seek fresh messages from God have, in effect, scorned the absolute certainty and absolute sufficiency of the written Word of God. And they have set in its place their own fallen and fallible imaginations.

Does this mean God has stopped speaking? Certainly not, but he speaks today through his Word. Does the Spirit of God move our hearts and impress us with specific duties or callings? Certainly, but he works through the Word of God to do that. Such experiences are in no sense prophetic or authoritative. They are not revelation, but the effect of illumination, when the Holy Spirit applies the Word of God to our hearts and opens our spiritual eyes to its truth.

We must guard carefully against allowing our experience and our own subjective thoughts and imaginations to eclipse the authority and the certainty of the more sure Word.
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Not a single one of the gifts of the spirit have ceased because the return of Jesus Christ has not happened yet.

Amen.

1Co 13:8-10

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

[marks]

The gifts are to be exercised under the lordship of Christ (1 Cor. 12:1–3). Attention should not be centered on our gifts or our experiences but the supremacy of Christ in all things. People may claim wonderful experiences, but if they aren’t living under Christ’s lordship, their gifts mean very little.

I've come to see spiritual gifts to be means by which we may more effectively love others.

I see someone who needs encouraging, and I love them, so I attempt to encourage them. And in the Holy Spirit's power I share the right words with the right countenance and the Spirit is making this happen right. And I have a love for encouraging others, and they really seem to be encouraged after, (this is all just for example)

Romans 12:8 KJV
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

I see this as the outworking of the gifts, as we serve each other in the Spirit's power, in the ways He intends, sometimes in a life-long pattern.

Paul says, earnesty covet the best gifts, yet I show you a more excellent way, and then teaches us about love. My desire is to give to you the greatest gift that I can, the outworking of my love for you. It will be a gift that fits your need. It will glorify God. It will be the pre-ordained work that Christ made me for the purpose of doing. And it will add something to you to enable you to better give your love to others in your pre-ordained work.

Or more simply stated, I want to love you the best I can in deed and truth, and I want God's power in me to be able to exceed far above what I would be able to do alone.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I've come to see spiritual gifts to be means by which we may more effectively love others.

I see someone who needs encouraging, and I love them, so I attempt to encourage them. And in the Holy Spirit's power I share the right words with the right countenance and the Spirit is making this happen right. And I have a love for encouraging others, and they really seem to be encouraged after, (this is all just for example)

Romans 12:8 KJV
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

I see this as the outworking of the gifts, as we serve each other in the Spirit's power, in the ways He intends, sometimes in a life-long pattern.

Paul says, earnesty covet the best gifts, yet I show you a more excellent way, and then teaches us about love. My desire is to give to you the greatest gift that I can, the outworking of my love for you. It will be a gift that fits your need. It will glorify God. It will be the pre-ordained work that Christ made me for the purpose of doing. And it will add something to you to enable you to better give your love to others in your pre-ordained work.

Or more simply stated, I want to love you the best I can in deed and truth, and I want God's power in me to be able to exceed far above what I would be able to do alone.

Much love!

Thank you brother-like David and Jonathan-and now you've stumped me since I have a hard time loving myself and I think you might have picked that up and if you were here I would have told you why.
Guess a apology to Epi would be a good start and to Lizbeth and Janice-love you too brother, more than you'll ever realize.
Bit overwhelmed-maybe I'm tired 01:15 AM.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

 

[marks]

-and now you've stumped me since I have a hard time loving myself and I think you might have picked that up and if you were here I would have told you why.

And now you've just zinged me . . . it wasn't in my mind . . . I don't remember ever really thinking about that . . . and if my words have meant something to you I would point to that by way of example of the Spirit's gift.

I started to write that example, and then I thought, no, pick another, that I'm more like, and I deleted it all, and wrote another. And in my heart, no, not that one, the first one. So I deleted what I wrote and rewrote the first again, word for word what I had erased.

So, whatever all that means!

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Thank you brother-like David and Jonathan-and now you've stumped me since I have a hard time loving myself and I think you might have picked that up and if you were here I would have told you why.
Guess a apology to Epi would be a good start and to Lizbeth and Janice-love you too brother, more than you'll ever realize.
Bit overwhelmed-maybe I'm tired 01:15 AM.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

You are loved Johann....hope you get some good rest if you're tired. It's hard work and can be a topsy-turvey ride processing emotions.....but our Anchor holds. Lord bless you and see you in the morning!

 

[Johann]

And now you've just zinged me . . . it wasn't in my mind . . . I don't remember ever really thinking about that . . . and if my words have meant something to you I would point to that by way of example of the Spirit's gift.

I started to write that example, and then I thought, no, pick another, that I'm more like, and I deleted it all, and wrote another. And in my heart, no, not that one, the first one. So I deleted what I wrote and rewrote the first again, word for word what I had erased.

So, whatever all that means!

Much love!

It means a lot to me, I don't quench the Holy Spirit brother and I don't believe in coincidences-our Lord Jesus Christ used you with a timely word, a fitting word, speaking directly into my heart. Don't ever give up on me marks.
Have a blessed day-and I still don't know where I am gifted or where I "fit in" the body of our Lord Jesus Christ by/in His Spirit.
If I could speak in glossalia I would.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

You are loved Johann....hope you get some good rest if you're tired. It's hard work and can be a topsy-turvey ride processing emotions.....but our Anchor holds. Lord bless you and see you in the morning!

God bless Lizbeth, I don't trust my emotions and grew up tough-my apologies to you as well.
See you tomorrow then, God willing?
Johann.

 

[marks]

It means a lot to me, I don't quench the Holy Spirit brother and I don't believe in coincidences-our Lord Jesus Christ used you with a timely word, a fitting word, speaking directly into my heart. Don't ever give up on me marks.
Have a blessed day-and I still don't know where I am gifted or where I "fit in" the body of our Lord Jesus Christ by/in His Spirit.
If I could speak in glossalia I would.
Johann.

You've been ministering a lot to me! I was really missing you, and I'm glad you are back around!!

Much love!

 

[Cassandra]

God bless Lizbeth, I don't trust my emotions and grew up tough-my apologies to you as well.
See you tomorrow then, God willing?
Johann.

You shouldn't trust your emotions. Alot of "gifts" going around aren't really "gifts". they are counterfeits designed to make us feel good.

 

[ChristisGod]

I am not writing on this topic because I have the final answer on spiritual gifts, for the matter is difficult and Christians who love God and the Bible disagree. Readers should know that Sam Storms and I are friends. We love one another, even though we differ on a secondary or tertiary issue, while at the same time upholding the importance of truth. Over the years I’ve become convinced that some of the so-called charismatic gifts are no longer given and that they aren’t a regular feature of life in the church. I am thinking particularly of the the gifts of apostleship, prophecy, tongues, healing, and miracles (and perhaps discernment of spirits).





To put it another way, we don’t have apostles like Paul and Peter and John anymore. They gave us the authoritative teaching by which the church continues to live to this day, and that is the only teaching we will need until Jesus returns. We know that new apostles won’t appear since Paul specifically says he was the last apostle (1 Cor. 15:8). And when James the brother of John died (Acts 12:2), he wasn’t replaced. Apostles, in the technical sense, are restricted to those who have seen the risen Lord and have been commissioned by him, and no one since apostolic times fits such criteria. The apostles were uniquely appointed for the early days of the church to establish orthodox doctrine. There is no warrant, then, for saying there are still apostles today. Indeed, if anyone claims to be an apostle today we should be concerned, for such a claim opens the door to false teaching and to abuse of authority.

If the gift of apostleship has ended, then other gifts may have ceased as well, since the foundation has been laid by the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20). I conclude from this point that the gift of prophecy has ended also, for the prophets identified here are the same sort mentioned elsewhere (cf. 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 3:5; 4:11). The early churches didn’t have the complete canon of Scripture for some time, and hence an authoritative and infallible prophetic ministry was needed to lay the foundation for the church in those early days.

The most significant biblical argument against what I’m saying is the claim that New Testament (NT) prophecy differs from Old Testament (OT) prophecy, for some say OT prophecy is flawless but NT prophecy is mixed with error. But the idea that NT prophets could make mistakes isn’t persuasive for several reasons. 1.) The burden of proof is on those who say prophecy in the NT is of a different nature than prophecy in the OT. Prophets in the OT were only considered prophets of God if they were infallible (Deut. 18:15-22), and the same is almost certainly true in the NT. 2.) The admonition to judge prophecies instead of prophets (1 Cor. 14:29-32; 1 Thess. 5:19-20) is often adduced to show that the gift is different in the NT. But this argument is not convincing, for the only way to judge prophets in both Testaments is by their prophecies. We only know prophets aren’t from God if their prophecies are false or if their words contradict scriptural teaching. 3.) We have no example of a NT prophet who erred. Agabus didn’t make a mistake in prophesying that Paul would be bound by the Jews and handed over to the Romans (Acts 21:10-11). To say he erred demands more precision than prophecies warrant. Furthermore, after Paul was arrested he appealed to the words of Agabus, saying he was handed over to the Romans by the Jews (Acts 28:17), so it’s clear he didn’t think Agabus made a mistake. Agabus spoke the words of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:28; 21:11), so we have no example in the NT of prophets whose prophecies were mixed with error.

Some object that my view of prophecy is off target since there were hundreds and thousands of prophecies in NT times that never made it into the canon. That objection doesn’t convince, however, for the same was true in the OT. Most of the prophecies of Elijah and Elisha were never written down or inscripturated. Or we can think of the 100 prophets spared by Obadiah (1 Kings 18:4). Apparently none of their prophecies was inscripurated. Nevertheless, the prophecies were all completely true and unmixed with error, for otherwise they wouldn’t have been prophets (Deut. 18:15-22). The same principle applies to the prophecies of NT prophets. Their words aren’t recorded for us, but if they were truly prophets then their words were infallible.

What some people today call “prophecies” are actually impressions from God. He can use impressions to guide and lead us, but they aren’t infallible and must always be tested by Scripture. We should also consult with wise counselors before acting on such impressions. I love my charismatic brothers and sisters, but what they call “prophecy” today isn’t actually the biblical gift of prophecy. God-given impressions aren’t the same thing as prophecies.

What About Tongues?
The gift of tongues is a more difficult issue. In Acts (2:1-4; 10:44-48; 19:1-7) this gift signifies that the age of fulfillment has arrived where God’s covenant promises are being realized. First Corinthians 14:1-5 and Acts 2:17-18 also suggest that interpreted (or understood) tongues are equivalent to prophecy. It seems, then, that prophecy and tongues are closely related. If prophecy has passed away, then tongues have likely ended as well. Further, it’s clear from Acts that the gift involves speaking in foreign languages (Acts 2), and Peter emphasizes in the case of Cornelius and his friends that the Gentiles received the same gift as the Jews (Acts 11:16-17).

Nor is it persuasive to say the gift in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is of a different nature (i.e., ecstatic utterances). The word tongues (glōssa) denotes a linguistic code, a structured language, not random and free vocalization. When Paul says no one understands those speaking in tongues because they utter mysteries (1 Cor. 14:2), he isn’t suggesting that the gift is different from what we find in Acts. Those hearing the tongues in Acts understood what was being said because they knew the languages the apostles were speaking. If no one knows the language, then the tongue speaker utters mysteries. Nor does 1 Corinthians 13:1 (tongues of angels) support the notion that the gift of tongues consists of ecstatic utterances. Paul engages in hyperbole in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. He’s clearly exaggerating when referring to the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 13:2), for no one who prophesies knows “all mysteries and all knowledge.”

I believe what’s happening in charismatic circles today regarding tongues is similar to what we saw with prophecy. The gift is redefined to include free vocalization, and then people claim to have the gift described in Scripture. In doing so they redefine the gift to accommodate contemporary experience. So are contemporary tongues demonic, then? I don’t think so. I agree with J. I. Packer that the experience is more a form of psychological relaxation.

Miracles and Healings
What about miracles and healings? First, I believe God still heals and does miraculous things today, and we should pray for such. Scripture isn’t as clear on this matter, and thus these gifts could exist today. Still, the primary function of these gifts was to accredit the gospel message, confirming that Jesus was both Lord and Christ. I doubt the gift of miracles and healings exists today, for it isn’t evident that men and women in our churches have such gifts. Certainly God can and does heal at times, but where are the people with these gifts? Claims for miracles and healings must be verified, just as the people verified the blind man’s healing in John 9. There is a kind of biblically warranted skepticism.

Now, could God in cutting-edge missionary situations grant miracles and signs and wonders to accredit the gospel as he did in apostolic times? Yes. But that’s not the same thing as having these gifts as a regular feature in the ongoing life of the church. If the signs and wonders of the apostles have returned, we should see the blind receiving their sight, the lame walking, and the dead being raised. God heals today (sometimes dramatically), but the healing of colds, the flu, TMJ, stomach, and back problems, and so forth aren’t in the same category as the healings found in the Scriptures. If people truly have the gift of healing and miracles today, they need to demonstrate such by performing the kinds of healings and miracles found in the Bible.

Doesn’t 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 Contradict Your View?
Let’s consider an objection to the notion that some of the gifts have ceased. Doesn’t 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach that the gifts last until Jesus comes again? Certainly this text teaches that the gifts could last until Jesus returns. There’s no definitive teaching in the Bible that they’ve ceased. We might even expect them to last until the second coming. But we see hints from Ephesians 2:20 and other texts that the gifts played a foundational role. I conclude, then, that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 permits but doesn’t require the gifts to continue until the second coming. And the gifts as they are practiced today don’t fit with the biblical description of these gifts.

For reasons like these the Reformers and most of the Protestant tradition until the 20th century believed the gifts had ceased. I conclude that both Scripture and experience verify their judgment on the matter.

Why I Am a Cessationist

Mac teaches all the charismatic gifts are satanic and not from God in our day.

Do you agree with him ?

 

[Lizbeth]

God bless Lizbeth, I don't trust my emotions and grew up tough-my apologies to you as well.
See you tomorrow then, God willing?
Johann.

No worries brother, please don't give it another thought, and I apologize too if I came across as being miffed at times. Amen about emotions, me either. We have emotions, they are a valid part in general of this vessel God created....but we don't live by them. We obey the Lord, not our emotions if our emotions are out of line in anything. I believe like any part of us our emotions need a little care, and to be healed as needed and sanctified and brought under His rule. The Lord knows how this life can be tough and treat us roughly and we develop ways of coping when young, trying to protect ourselves because we got hurt. He has grace for that, and is not a harsh taskmaster "out to get us" and catch us in a fault, and He does care about His children and wants to help us get sorted out. It's all part of the sanctification journey, how I see it anyway, for His sake and glory as well. I've been hurt and wounded in this life too (think a lot of us have been) and am a fellow pilgrim in the process.

Think I'm beginning to see that we have been at cross-purposes, at least to some extent in this topic of cessationism, if I'm not mistaken..? Maybe it isn't spiritual gifts and miracles per se that you disagree with so much as how it gets handled and dwelled on in certain Christian circles...? As you said, you don't put God in a box and you have seen Him do things yourself I gather, and it didn't bother you where I mentioned hearing from the Lord about "mixture" on the other thread. (and if as you mentioned you have more to say about that whole thing I'd be interested to hear more about it, Lord willing.)