Why Antiochus Epiphanes IV Is Not The Little Horn - Part I: "in the latter time of their kingdom"

[tailgator]

The king of the north will give the little horn a host by which the daily sacrifice will be abolished.

Daniel 8:12
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


Don't you know a lot of mothers will be happy for this. Their babies won't be dying in Gaza as they are today.The United states armed forces will practice the authority of the Israeli government on its behalf.By my estimation,this may take place next year.

 

[tailgator]

I read all of your comment, and your point about the 4 winds of heaven only serves to bolster my position. The 4 directions of the compass were linked with Alexander's entire kingdom being split up into four kingdoms located in roughly all four directions on the map. This is pretty clear when looking at the division of the four main kingdoms on a map of this time period following Alexander's death.

It was in the latter time of the four horns' kingdom when "their sins are come to the full" (Dan. 8:23) that the little horn arose to power. Those "sins" were part of the constant fight for supremacy between Alexander's commanders which continued until their number dropped to two main rulers (the Ptolemies and the Seleucids).

The little horn "destroyed the mighty and the holy people" (Dan. 8:24) by Antiochus E's vicious campaign against the Jewish religion. His army was recorded in history as "treading underfoot" the sanctuary and the host for a time span of those "2,300 mornings and evenings" (or 1,150 days) before the Maccabees cleansed that sanctuary. Christ in His days was celebrating the "feast of dedication" based on this Maccabean victory when they had cleansed the temple and rededicated it after defeating the army of the "little horn".

Antiochus did not kill the holy people .
The holy people Daniel is writing about is the church in Israel during end times.The saints who do not worship the beast or it's image or recieve it's mark.They will be killed for their testimony of Jesus.


Daniels prophecy concerning the holy people is end times prophecy.Not about people who thought they were holy for killing cows,goats and sheep.


Daniel 12:7
The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

The persecution of the holy people (church)in Israel lasts for 3.5 years and then Christ comes.The end.

 

[Douggg]

No thinking person considers 2300 days of continued temple pollution the "distant future" nor any reason for Daniel to have a nervous breakdown. However, 2300 years of that absolutely qualifies.

The vision is 2300 days long, beginning when the daily sacrifice starts up again, and ending when the little horn person is broken when Jesus returns at the end of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

The little horn person will stop the daily sacrifice of the two lambs, one in the morning, one in the evening, in the middle part of the 7 years.

"Sacrifice" is not in the original Hebrew. The Little Horn takes away the "daily" ("tamid") which refers to the entire ceremonial sacrificial system - not just burnt offerings - and no one argues Antiochus took that away.

Antiochus was not time of the end, not the little horn person.

Every single one of you miss this:

The angel cleared up Daniel's confusion by showing him that the temple that would suffer another 2300 years of pollution was not the temple in Jerusalem, the city which the people would return from Babylon "to restore and to rebuild".

What are you talking about ? The time of the end vision involving the little horn person will last 2300 days.

Good gravy, man, the 70 Weeks are "cut off" ("chatak") from something, and the only other Numerically Specific Time Prophecy within a mile of them the 2300 Days. How you gonna cut off 490 years from 6.3 years?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Being cut off pertains to the messiah, in Daniel 9:26.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Still waiting for the answer.

You just don't like the answer I gave.

The Roman Little Horn arises at the end of the four Greek empires and was "exceeding great" above Alex the Great or MP. The only thing Antiochus excelled at was championing mediocrity.

For Antiochus Epiphanes to "destroy the mighty and the holy people" with his army's invasion of Jerusalem and abolish the practice of Judaism was from the Jews' perspective "exceeding great". After all, that was the very purpose of Daniel's visions: to show the progress of the kingdoms of the ancient world which would affect the fate of their own nation and practice of their religion. Antiochus Epiphanes conquering Egypt also fits the description of "exceeding great" as well. If it took the rising power of Rome itself to halt Antiochus' expedition against Alexandria, the last Egyptian city that Antiochus had not yet taken, this gives us a qualifying sense of Antiochus Epiphanes' power in those days. I don't think your estimation of "mediocrity" fits the record of Antiochus Epiphanes' actions at all.

The text says the 490 days are "cut off" from something - the only prophetic period from which they can be cut off is the larder 2300 days.

Daniel 9:26 says the Messiah would be "cut off" - not the 70 weeks of years (490 years). The period of 2,300 mornings and evenings just happened to take place within the 490 years of Daniel's prophecy. The 2,300 period is a subset within the larger set of 490 years.

It doesn't say 2300 "oblations" - it says 2300 "evenings and mornings" in the same way Genesis says the "evening and the morning" were the first day.

Daniel 9:21 has the angel coming to speak to Daniel "about the time of the evening oblation". Worship in the temple included a morning and evening oblation period, and considered together, they marked the passing of a single day. The passing of 2,300 morning and evenings considered together indicates the passing of 1,150 literal 24-hour days.

The "daily" ("tamid") refers to the entire sacrificial ceremonial system which includes things like trimming the candlesticks, filling the lampstands with oil, preparation of the shewbread, etc. - not just the animal sacrifice on the altar! Antiochus never took away the entire system and no one argues that he did.

Antiochus Epiphanes outlawed the practice of Judaism entirely - including circumcision. He executed women and their infants for having them circumcised, which broke this restriction Antiochus had put on their religion. Under Antiochus' edicts, practicing dietary laws of the Jews was considered a crime punishable by death. Copies of their scriptures were destroyed, etc. The entire system was under attack by command of Antiochus Epiphanes.

The papacy "cast the truth to the ground" when it hijacked Christ's High Priestly "daily" ministry of Intercession and took it over. The Little Horn is the papacy which arose in Rome.

When you insert the Papacy as being the fulfillment of the "little horn", this makes a complete chronological break in the continual flow of history from the Greek kingdom over to Pompey the Great in Daniel 11:40-45. You would have Alexander's kingdom transfered to the four generals who eventually took command of four divisons of that Greek empire, then suddenly you have the papacy arising as the "little horn", then you have Pompey the Great coming on the scene in Daniel 11:40-45. This is patently ridiculous.

Hebrews 9:23 KJV

"It was therefore necessary that the patterns (Earthly temple) of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."

If you think there are corrupt things existing in heaven that need purification, you cannot be more incorrect.

Hebrews 9:23 was speaking of "the PATTERN" of heavenly things which were on earth needing to be replaced with better sacrifices. It wasn't anything in heaven that needed purifying from corruption.

 

[Douggg]

What you just posted, quoted above, demonstrates that you are not a worthy disciple of Christ or God.

Goodbye.

You are the guy talking about solving all the problems in world taking precedence over studying eschatology.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Daniels prophecy concerning the holy people is end times prophecy.Not about people who thought they were holy for killing cows,goats and sheep.

The term "holy people" was first given to the ancient Israelites when God inaugurated them as a nation back in the wilderness. "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." (Deut. 7:6).

Of course, we know very well that ancient Israel repeatedly disobeyed their God and had many judgments passed upon them. They served as a temporary microcosm of God choosing a "holy people" for Himself as children of faith - the true "Israel of God" which actually has been the case from creation forward. But as a temporary example, God granted the ethnic people of Israel this title of being "the holy people".

Daniel was given the prophecies which concerned the fate of his own ethnic people of Israel, right up to the time when God would "shatter the power of the holy people" during those "time, times, and half a time" (Daniel 12:7). This eventual destruction of this formerly "holy people" occurred in the AD 66-70 period (those 3-1/2 years predicted in Daniel 12:7, which you included above). This was not the destruction of the true "Israel of God", because that is a kingdom which will never be destroyed. God promised that even the gates of hell could not withstand the progress of this kingdom's growth. It's power will NEVER be "shattered", as that of natural ethnic Israel's "holy people" was shattered back in AD 70.

 

[tailgator]

The term "holy people" was first given to the ancient Israelites when God inaugurated them as a nation back in the wilderness. "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." (Deut. 7:6).

Of course, we know very well that ancient Israel repeatedly disobeyed their God and had many judgments passed upon them. They served as a temporary microcosm of God choosing a "holy people" for Himself as children of faith - the true "Israel of God" which actually has been the case from creation forward. But as a temporary example, God granted the ethnic people of Israel this title of being "the holy people".

Daniel was given the prophecies which concerned the fate of his own ethnic people of Israel, right up to the time when God would "shatter the power of the holy people" during those "time, times, and half a time" (Daniel 12:7). This eventual destruction of this formerly "holy people" occurred in the AD 66-70 period (those 3-1/2 years predicted in Daniel 12:7, which you included above). This was not the destruction of the true "Israel of God", because that is a kingdom which will never be destroyed. God promised that even the gates of hell could not withstand the progress of this kingdom's growth. It's power will NEVER be "shattered", as that of natural ethnic Israel's "holy people" was shattered back in AD 70.

The holy people are the people who do not worship the little horn ,it's image or recieve it's mark.The are killed for thier testimony of jesus.They shall live and reign with Christ for 1000 years.

Exodus 19:6
you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

Revelation 20:6

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



The little horn in Daniel 7-8 is the beast which came out of the sea in revelation 13.Both testify of the same government.



Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Revelation 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.




I learned long ago that this little horn is the Israeli government.Next year after Trump is reelected,he will give Israel a host.The second beast of revelation 13.Then the holy people (church)in Israel will be prisoned and killed for terrifying of Christ and for warning he israelis to not worship the beast.


Daniel 11:33-35
“Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.


As Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5 says,
42 months=a time,times and a half.

 

[tailgator]

Jesus prophecied about the beast,little horn all in the gospel.He confronted it face to face.


Mathew 23:35
Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

 

[Jay Ross]

You are the guy talking about solving all the problems in world taking precedence over studying eschatology.

But Douggg, you are part of the problems of this world with your false interpretation of the End Time Prophecies leading many away from God's truth.

Within the next seven years we will have this fact of your flawed interpretation well and truly confirmed.

I cannot "fix" you and your problems/issues, I can only point out the errors that you post.

To fix the problems of this world, Satan is not the solution as you have previously posted.

What is required is for God's watchers of the unfolding worldly events to pray and to inform the people of the dilemmas that we are going to face because of our primary sin of turning away from God. David's example of repenting for turning away from God is the example that we should follow.

As an engineer, you should be well aware that in trying to solve one problem we in fact create many more problems and this is what you are doing with your created charts.

Goodbye Douggg

 

[Phoneman777]

The vision is 2300 days long,

Rather, for the "distant future" - is a mere 6 years "the distant future"?

beginning when the daily sacrifice starts up again, and ending when the little horn person is broken when Jesus returns at the end of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

Since the 70 Weeks are used to explain the 2300 Days and are "cut off" from something - even a blind man can see that what the 70 are "cut off" from is the 2300 Days - making the "day/year" principle apply to both.

The little horn person will stop the daily sacrifice of the two lambs, one in the morning, one in the evening, in the middle part of the 7 years.

Think you need to re-read the prophecy to see that "sacrifice" was added by translators. The Little Horn stops the "daily" for 2300 Days - "daily" ("tamid") is the entire sanctuary service, not just burnt offerings.

Antiochus was not time of the end, not the little horn person.

And since the "cleansing of the sanctuary is at the "time of the end" Antiochus can't be the Little Horn.

What are you talking about ? The time of the end vision involving the little horn person will last 2300 days.

"Time of the end" is also "for the distant future" - again, I ask, do you really think 2300 literal days brings us down to the "time of the end" aka "distant future" or rather do you think 2300 YEARS does that?

Being cut off pertains to the messiah, in Daniel 9:26.

I don't mind explaining this, but in the name of all that is holy, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION:

>Daniel was greatly disturbed by news that the temple would continued to be polluted for 2300 Days.
>Gabriel is sent to explain what the vision of the 2300 Days actually means.
>After telling Daniel to sit up and pay attention, he drops the 70 Weeks prophecy.
>THIS MEANS THE 70 WEEKS ARE THE KEY TO PROPERLY UNDERSTANDING THE 2300 DAYS.
>Gabriel says, "Seventy Weeks are determined..."
>The word "determined" is a bad rendering - it more accurately means "cut off" or "amputated".
>The only time period within in mile of the 70 Weeks is the 2300 Days, which means they're cut off from it.
>Since the two are connected, they must both share the same starting point: Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. decree.
>The 70 Weeks show Daniel Jerusalem and the temple will soon be rebuilt
>Therefore - the 2300 years of continued pollution pertains to another temple - the heavenly temple
>It's this temple that will one day be cleansed by the coming Messiah the Prince as our future High Priest.

It's really that simple.

 

[Phoneman777]

You just don't like the answer I gave.

You didn't. Let's recap:

I asked you if the kingdoms of Cassander, Ptolemy, Lysimachus, and Seleucid ended with their deaths.

Since you answering "no" would be an admission by you that your claim "the latter time of the kingdom" must pertain only to the lifespans of these four men is a purely subjective claim, you didn't answer.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The little horn in Daniel 7-8 is the beast which came out of the sea in revelation 13.Both testify of the same government.

The "little horn" of Daniel 7 was found among ten horns on the 4th "dreadful and terrible" beast.
But the "little horn" of Daniel 8 was a single horn that arose from one of the "four notable ones" of Alexander's Greek kingdom (which was Daniel's 3rd beast kingdom). These two horns were not the same. In fact, if you check the Greek in both cases, Daniel 7:8 is a "little horn" (mikros), but the Daniel 8:9 horn is a "strong horn" (ischuros) in the LXX.

As Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5 says,
42 months=a time,times and a half.

I agree that these time periods in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5 are speaking of the same episode of history. But they are ancient history.
Daniel 7:25's "little horn" was Nero, emperor at 17, who made war against the saints for 42 months from late AD 64 until just before his death in AD 68.
Daniel 8:9's "strong horn" was Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who "destroyed the mighty and holy people" by his warfare against the Jews and their religion until the Maccabees finally defeated them.

 

[Douggg]

Rather, for the "distant future" - is a mere 6 years "the distant future"?

For the time of the end, when the little horn person will be broken by Jesus.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Since the 70 Weeks are used to explain the 2300 Days and are "cut off" from something - even a blind man can see that what the 70 are "cut off" from is the 2300 Days - making the "day/year" principle apply to both.

It is the Messiah who is "cut off", not the 70 weeks from the 2300 days.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Think you need to re-read the prophecy to see that "sacrifice" was added by translators. The Little Horn stops the "daily" for 2300 Days - "daily" ("tamid") is the entire sanctuary service, not just burnt offerings.

The daily sacrifice refers to the two lambs offered each day. One in the morning, one in the evening.

Daniel 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

"Time of the end" is also "for the distant future" - again, I ask, do you really think 2300 literal days brings us down to the "time of the end" aka "distant future" or rather do you think 2300 YEARS does that?

The 2300 days vision involving the little horn fits within the time of the end 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

 

[Brakelite]

Daniel appears to be already sick at the time he received the vision. In verse 3, Daniel lifts up his eyes - i.e. like someone resting, lying down sick.

Far out bro, that is one of the most desperate attempts to deny the obvious I've ever seen.

 

[Douggg]

>The word "determined" is a bad rendering - it more accurately means "cut off" or "amputated"

No it does not. mean 'cut off".

Daniel 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Brakelite]

The vision is 2300 days long, beginning when the daily sacrifice starts up again, and ending when the little horn person is broken when Jesus returns at the end of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

The little horn person will stop the daily sacrifice of the two lambs, one in the morning, one in the evening, in the middle part of the 7 years.

How can anyone be so demonstrably certain and be so confident and assertive concerning something that perhaps, maybe, in some unknown distant or near future, and at the same time deny what has already taken place in the past?

 

[Brakelite]

Futurism is akin to a spiritualist version of pin the tail on the donkey. Blindly wandering through scripture and taking stabs in the dark based on imagination and fictional movies and books. The time of the second coming is closer than any of you think. Time to get serious about seeking truth, and cast off from you the clairvoyance and wizardry you are placing your hopes on.
@Phoneman777 keep up your truth telling bro. Your historicist hermeneutic is unanswerable.

 

[Douggg]

To fix the problems of this world, Satan is not the solution as you have previously posted.

Please do not misrepresent what I wrote. What I wrote in response to your comments that fixing the world's problems has priority over studying eschatology.

In my post #57, I wrote...

"Sounds like you are looking for some super hero to solve all the world's problems. Guess who that is going to be ? The number of his name is 666."

666 is the number of the Antichrist person.

 

[Douggg]

How can anyone be so demonstrably certain and be so confident and assertive concerning something that perhaps, maybe, in some unknown distant or near future, and at the same time deny what has already taken place in the past?

You are being philosophical. If you wish to make a bible based point of past fulfillment, copy and paste the specific scripture.

 

[tailgator]

The "little horn" of Daniel 7 was found among ten horns on the 4th "dreadful and terrible" beast.
But the "little horn" of Daniel 8 was a single horn that arose from one of the "four notable ones" of Alexander's Greek kingdom (which was Daniel's 3rd beast kingdom). These two horns were not the same. In fact, if you check the Greek in both cases, Daniel 7:8 is a "little horn" (mikros), but the Daniel 8:9 horn is a "strong horn" (ischuros) in the LXX.



I agree that these time periods in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5 are speaking of the same episode of history. But they are ancient history.
Daniel 7:25's "little horn" was Nero, emperor at 17, who made war against the saints for 42 months from late AD 64 until just before his death in AD 68.
Daniel 8:9's "strong horn" was Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who "destroyed the mighty and holy people" by his warfare against the Jews and their religion until the Maccabees finally defeated them.

The little horn dwells among the ten horns today.
None of them have been destroyed and are not destroyed till Christ comes.

You are in the wrong time period my friend.The beast is alive and well.

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.