Why Antiochus Epiphanes IV Is Not The Little Horn - Part I: "in the latter time of their kingdom"

[Phoneman777]

The focus of description is ON THE 3RD BEAST!!

The 3rd beast representing Greece which divided into four yet remained Greek!

The fourth beast which followed was Rome!

The "latter time of their kingdom" refers to the end of the reign of the four kingly lines which includes the Seleucid kingdom, of which Antiochus was EIGHTH in a line of TWENTY PLUS which disqualifies him as the Little Horn which arose "at the latter time" of them.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus is messiah

Yes, but according to Messianic Judaism, "Messiah the Prince" refers to high priest Onias. By this, they are anything but authoritative when it comes to eschatology.

Messianic Judaism is a deception designed to dupe people into accepting "Israel-centered eschatology" rather than "Christ-centered eschatology" so that end time focus of those seduced by it can be safely kept from the West - in Rome.

 

[tailgator]

Yes, but according to Messianic Judaism, "Messiah the Prince" refers to high priest Onias. By this, they are anything but authoritative when it comes to eschatology.

Messianic Judaism is a deception designed to dupe people into accepting "Israel-centered eschatology" rather than "Christ-centered eschatology" so that end time focus of those seduced by it can be safely kept from the West - in Rome.

Sounds like you've been seduced into believing the Jews in Israel who believe in Jesus are apostates like the unbelieving Jews claim.

 

[Phoneman777]

Sounds like you've been seduced

I think those who are seduced are the ones who insist literal Jerusalem has anything more to contribute to end times eschatology.

into believing the Jews in Israel who believe in Jesus are apostates like the unbelieving Jews claim.

An "apostate" is one who knows the truth but turns from it - which means those who have been taught lies are covered by the "winking eye" of God - but are still required to "come out of her" ("Babylon") when they hear the truth, as I did, instead of being gaslighted by Baptist pastors who smile and say "I remember when you were in diapers and yet you presume to tell me about the Bible?" when I confronted him on the Sabbath/Sunday issue.

Those who remain in Babylon will indeed glow - not with gaslight - but with divine retribution from the cup of God poured out without a drop of mercy mixed in it.

 

[tailgator]

I think those who are seduced are the ones who insist literal Jerusalem has anything more to contribute to end times eschatology.

An "apostate" is one who knows the truth but turns from it - which means those who have been taught lies are covered by the "winking eye" of God - but are still required to "come out of her" ("Babylon") when they hear the truth, as I did, instead of being gaslighted by Baptist pastors who smile and say "I remember when you were in diapers and yet you presume to tell me about the Bible?" when I confronted him on the Sabbath/Sunday issue.

Those who remain in Babylon will indeed glow - not with gaslight - but with divine retribution from the cup of God poured out without a drop of mercy mixed in it.

The prophecy say Jerusalem is the city that it attacked by the nations .Not Rome.

See how I can simply quote scripture and it literally says Jerusalem


Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.



This is the exact same day you claim.those same nations attack Rome ,but you can't quote what you say as I can.

 

[Phoneman777]

The prophecy say Jerusalem is the city that it attacked by the nations .Not Rome.

To what prophecy are you referring?

See how I can simply quote scripture and it literally says Jerusalem
Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

This is the exact same day you claim.those same nations attack Rome ,but you can't quote what you say as I can.

Zechariah 14 is never going to be fulfilled in those Jesus-haters you call "Israel" - only with true Israel.

 

[tailgator]

To what prophecy are you referring?

Zechariah 14 is never going to be fulfilled in those Jesus-haters you call "Israel" - only with true Israel.

The day of the Lord is when Jerusalem(aka Babylon )is attacked by the nations.The houses will be ransacked and the women raped.

Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


A prophecy against Babylon.

Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

 

[Phoneman777]

The day of the Lord is when Jerusalem(aka Babylon )is attacked by the nations.The houses will be ransacked and the women raped.

Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Fulfilled in 70 A.D.

A prophecy against Babylon.

Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Fulfilled when Babylon fell by the hands of Cyrus and Darius

 

[tailgator]

Fulfilled in 70 A.D.

You believe the day of the Lord when the Lord consumes all the sinners out of the Land was fulfilled in 70 Ad.

Fulfilled when Babylon fell by the hands of Cyrus and Darius

You believe the day of the Lord when the Lord consumes all the sinners out of the Land was in 539 bc.







You obviously are not paying attention to the word of God and are just spouting out lies as fast as you possibly can.Im going to go ahead and put you on ignore,I can't stand to argue with someone who just ignores God and lies like you do.

The Roman soldiers who came against Jerusalem were never consumed .It's a lie to say they did.


12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth

 

[Earburner]

The 3rd beast representing Greece which divided into four yet remained Greek!

The fourth beast which followed was Rome!

The "latter time of their kingdom" refers to the end of the reign of the four kingly lines which includes the Seleucid kingdom, of which Antiochus was EIGHTH in a line of TWENTY PLUS which disqualifies him as the Little Horn which arose "at the latter time" of them.

You are not hearing that the focus for the overall prophecy, concerning "the latter time of their kingdom", is about the entirety of the Grecian 3rd Beast .

The kingly lines of the 3rd Beast, are only recognized from the short life of Alex the Great (356-323 BC.), and then that of the four Hellenistic kings, which was their reign DURING "the latter time" (323-146) BC. Their reign was NOT consisting of only AE-lV, but rather in "the latter time" of the 3RD BEAST.

Legitimately, the 3rd Beast ruled the world from 356 BC. to 146 BC, beginning when it defeated the Medio-Persian empire (2nd beast).
The 3rd Beast as an empire, was from 500-146 BC.
In 146 BC. is when the Roman Empire became the 4th Beast to rule the world.

Timeline of the Greek Empire

Browse through this ancient Greek timeline to examine a millennium of Greek history.

www.thoughtco.com

 

[Earburner]

The 3rd beast representing Greece which divided into four yet remained Greek!

The fourth beast which followed was Rome!

The "latter time of their kingdom" refers to the end of the reign of the four kingly lines which includes the Seleucid kingdom, of which Antiochus was EIGHTH in a line of TWENTY PLUS which disqualifies him as the Little Horn which arose "at the latter time" of them.

You are close but so far away. It's about the
latter time OF THE 3rd Beast!!
Their kingdoms are collectively in the PLURAL, meaning the four individual kingdoms were ALL OF the SINGULAR Grecian Empire, the 3rd Beast.

 

[Phoneman777]

You believe the day of the Lord when the Lord consumes all the sinners out of the Land was fulfilled in 70 Ad.

I believe there was a day in 70 A.D. when the Lord withdrew forever divine protection of Jerusalem.

You believe the day of the Lord when the Lord consumes all the sinners out of the Land was in 539 bc.

I believe there was a day in 539 B.C. when God used MP to bring the Babylonian empire to an end.

You obviously are not paying attention to the word of God and are just spouting out lies as fast as you possibly can.Im going to go ahead and put you on ignore,I can't stand to argue with someone who just ignores God and lies like you do.

What "lies"?

The Roman soldiers who came against Jerusalem were never consumed .It's a lie to say they did.

I never said they were.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are not hearing that the focus for the overall prophecy, concerning "the latter time of their kingdom", is about the entirety of the Grecian 3rd Beast. The kingly lines of the 3rd Beast, are only recognized from the short life of Alex the Great (356-323 BC.), and then that of the four Hellenistic kings, which was their reign DURING "the latter time" (323-146) BC. Their reign was NOT consisting of only AE-lV, but rather in "the latter time" of the 3RD BEAST.

I agree with that! It is at the end of the reign of the four Greek kingdoms that the Little Horn was to arise.

The Pagan Rome Little Horn arose and attacked horizontally to expand its empire and then morphed into Papal Rome when it began attacking vertically toward God's throne. This is textbook Protestant Historicism. Since Antiochus didn't reign anywhere near the "latter time of their kingdom" he can't be the Little Horn.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are close but so far away. It's about the
latter time OF THE 3rd Beast!!
Their kingdom is in the PLURAL, meaning the four individual kingdoms were ALL OF the SINGULAR Grecian Empire, the 3rd Beast.

Holy smoke, we're saying the same thing!

It's the "latter time of their kingdom" meaning "the end of the four kingdoms established by Cassander, Ptolomey, Lysimachus, and Seleucid" that we are to look for the Little Horn to arise. The only power that was "exceeding great" that arose at that time was Rome, making the Little Horn pagan/papal Rome!

Since Antiochus' reign was nowhere near the time those kingdoms came to an end, he can't be the Little Horn.

 

[Earburner]

I believe there was a day in 70 A.D. when the Lord withdrew forever divine protection of Jerusalem.

To that I agree!
God the Father, speaking through Jesus said:
Luke 17
[35] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye [individually] shall not see me, until the time come when ye [individually] shall say, Blessed is he** that cometh in the name of the Lord, **aka His Born Again saints, the legitimate ambassadors for Christ.

 

[Earburner]

I agree with that! It is at the end of the reign of the four Greek kingdoms that the Little Horn was to arise.

The Pagan Rome Little Horn arose and attacked horizontally to expand its empire and then morphed into Papal Rome when it began attacking vertically toward God's throne. This is textbook Protestant Historicism. Since Antiochus didn't reign anywhere near the "latter time of their kingdom" he can't be the Little Horn.

No! You missed the timing completely.
Hear the words:

Dan.7​

[8] I considered the [ten] horns, and, behold, there came up AMONG them another little horn [who was NOT OF the ten], before whom [aforetime, prior to the little horn- AE-lV], there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots [Medio-Persia (2) and Alex the Great (1)]:
and, behold, in this [little] horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan. 8 [Gabriel's interpretation]
[8] Therefore the he goat [the 3rd beast] waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn [Alex the Great] was broken; and FOR IT came up FOUR notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
[9] And OUT OF ONE of them [four] came forth a "little horn", which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [Israel].


The papacy didn't officially begin until the favorable interaction of Constantine (306 to 337 AD) with Christianity.

By the way, St. Jerome was a major writer of the Catholic Vulgate Bibe, within 34 years before his death in 420 AD.
The English version of it, in the NT, is the Douay Rheims Bible, which is not that much different than the KJV.

Who Was Saint Jerome?

Saint Jerome translated the Bible into Latin in what would become the Vulgate edition. He was a hermit, a priest, and a teacher. Learn more about him.

www.thoughtco.com

 

[Phoneman777]

No! You missed the timing completely.
Hear the words:

Dan.7​

[8] I considered the [ten] horns, and, behold, there came up AMONG them another little horn [who was NOT OF the ten], before whom [aforetime, prior to the little horn- AE-lV], there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots [Medio-Persia (2) and Alex the Great (1)]:
and, behold, in this [little] horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan. 8 [Gabriel's interpretation]
[8] Therefore the he goat [the 3rd beast] waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn [Alex the Great] was broken; and FOR IT came up FOUR notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
[9] And OUT OF ONE of them [four] came forth a "little horn", which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [Israel].


The papacy didn't officially begin until the favorable interaction of Constantine (306 to 337 AD) with Christianity.

By the way, St. Jerome was a major writer of the Catholic Vulgate Bibe, within 34 years before his death in 420 AD.
The English version of it, in the NT, is the Douay Rheims Bible, which is not that much different than the KJV.

Who Was Saint Jerome?

Saint Jerome translated the Bible into Latin in what would become the Vulgate edition. He was a hermit, a priest, and a teacher. Learn more about him.

www.thoughtco.com

The ten horns are not during the time of the Greeks, they are after the Romans because they come out of the fourth beast.

 

[Earburner]

The ten horns are not during the time of the Greeks, they are after the Romans because they come out of the fourth beast.

You didn't digest the words of Gabriel's interpretation:
Dan. 8 [Gabriel's interpretation]
[8] Therefore the he goat [the 3rd beast] waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn [Alex the Great] was broken; and FOR IT came up FOUR notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
[9] And OUT OF ONE of them [four] came forth a "little horn",

 

[Phoneman777]

You didn't digest the words of Gabriel's interpretation:
Dan. 8 [Gabriel's interpretation]
[8] Therefore the he goat [the 3rd beast] waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn [Alex the Great] was broken; and FOR IT came up FOUR notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
[9] And OUT OF ONE of them [four] came forth a "little horn",

By mentioning the horns, Gabriel is not replacing the Third Beast with additional Beasts, but expanding the description of the Third Beast by telling us that Alex would rule the whole and his generals would rule the divisions - but the entire thing remains a "Greek" Third Beast! There are no additional kingdoms between the Greek Third and the Roman Fourth.

HOW DO WE KNOW?​

Because the Daniel 2 template makes it clear there are only four kingdoms with the fourth dividing into the ten horns which are the ten barbarian tribes, among which Daniel 7 says the Little Horn arises. As previously stated, Daniel 2 is the foundational template with which our interpretation of the subsequent books of Daniel and Revelation must agree, but your Jesuit interpretations throw Daniel 2 aside with the same reckless disdain as when the papacy declared "the Scriptures must be thrown aside" when they conflict with the word of the pope.

Once again, you guys are found to be in alignment with the papacy and in opposition to the Reformers.

 

[Earburner]

By mentioning the horns, Gabriel is not replacing the Third Beast with additional Beasts, but expanding the description of the Third Beast by telling us that Alex would rule the whole and his generals would rule the divisions - but the entire thing remains a "Greek" Third Beast! There are no additional kingdoms between the Greek Third and the Roman Fourth.

HOW DO WE KNOW?​

Because the Daniel 2 template makes it clear there are only four kingdoms with the fourth dividing into the ten horns which are the ten barbarian tribes, among which Daniel 7 says the Little Horn arises.

You are showing serious issues of attempting to intentionally misallign and misunderstand scripture, by not perceiving the simplicity of Gabriel's interpretation to Daniel in Dan. 8., as to WHAT the "little horn" ROSE FROM out of.
It was the Seleucid kingdom within the 3rd Beast, which for the "Four", continued to be "the latter time of THEIR kingdom" of the Grecian Empire (the 3rd Beast).

Dan. 8:8....the great horn [Alex the Great] was broken; and FOR IT came up FOUR notable ones toward the four winds of heaven [N,E,S,W.]
[9] And OUT OF ONE of them [of the four] came forth a "little horn",...