Why Antiochus Epiphanes IV Is Not The Little Horn - Part I: "in the latter time of their kingdom"

[3 Resurrections]

I've done no such thing.

You're suggesting the statement "...four horns stood up in its place toward the four winds of heaven" limits the four directions of the compass to the borders of the four horns, which is subjective nonsense. The directions of the compass stretch well beyond the Greek territories to all the way across the world, which includes where the Little Horn rises: ROME.

Did you miss the part where I showed you that the feminine pronoun "THEM" can only refer to the sometimes feminine noun "WINDS" and never to the always masculine noun "HORNS"?

I read all of your comment, and your point about the 4 winds of heaven only serves to bolster my position. The 4 directions of the compass were linked with Alexander's entire kingdom being split up into four kingdoms located in roughly all four directions on the map. This is pretty clear when looking at the division of the four main kingdoms on a map of this time period following Alexander's death.

It was in the latter time of the four horns' kingdom when "their sins are come to the full" (Dan. 8:23) that the little horn arose to power. Those "sins" were part of the constant fight for supremacy between Alexander's commanders which continued until their number dropped to two main rulers (the Ptolemies and the Seleucids).

The little horn "destroyed the mighty and the holy people" (Dan. 8:24) by Antiochus E's vicious campaign against the Jewish religion. His army was recorded in history as "treading underfoot" the sanctuary and the host for a time span of those "2,300 mornings and evenings" (or 1,150 days) before the Maccabees cleansed that sanctuary. Christ in His days was celebrating the "feast of dedication" based on this Maccabean victory when they had cleansed the temple and rededicated it after defeating the army of the "little horn".

 

[Marty fox]

You are missing the point scripture is making. At "the latter time of THEIR kingdom" when ALL FOUR rulers had been in power, the little horn then arose in the person of Antiochus Epiphanes IV. This was "not in his own power" (Daniel 8:24). Antiochus Epiphanes IV took advantage of the power vacuum left by the death of his brother Seleucus IV Philopator, whose son and heir was a very young hostage at Rome at the time. Antiochus E. more or less usurped the crown and the kingdom. "Craft" is an apt description of how Antiochus E. arose to power and kept it.

By then, the Greek kingdom's joint rulership of the four most prominent rulers had ended. Assassinations and constant infighting among the rulers of those four divisions of the Greek empire resulted in that kingdom power eventually coalescing into only two rulers - the "king of the south" (the Ptolemaic rulers) and the "king of the north" (the Seleucid rulers).

This little horn, the king in Daniel 8, would end by being "broken without hand" (Daniel 8:25), which happened when Antiochus E's chariot overturned, and he sustained broken bones which progressed into a foul disease of which Antiochus E. died - not in battle or by any human agency, but by God's direct intervention in ending his life.

Conclusion: the "little horn" is most definitely Antiochus Epiphanes IV.

Yes amen.

Who would the Jews living in the times of the Maccabees of thought the 8th horn was? Antioch's for sue

 

[Douggg]

Who told you the "prince that shall come" is antichrist? There are only two candidates for the coming "prince" in Daniel 9: "Messiah the prince" or "prince Titus" who came destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Nowhere is there any mention of "antichrist" - it's purely Jesuit Futurist conjecture.

Learn from the bible what Christ means.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

The messiah concept stems from Jewish tradition of a promised King of Israel, descended from David, who will lead Israel and the world into a messianic age of peace and safety.

The Antichrist will be a false messiah, mistaken by the Jews as their long awaited King of Israel messiah, follwing the Gog/Magog event.

The prince who shall come is one stage of the person to become the Antichrist. The prince who shall come immediately follows the Gog/Magog event. The 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 are the 7 years of Daniel 9:27. On my diagram below.

the Antichrist:
The common name for the end times person of evil. He begins as the little horn person > then becomes the prince who shall come > then becomes the Antichrist > then becomes the revealed man of sin > then becomes the beast-king.

 

[Phoneman777]

I read all of your comment, and your point about the 4 winds of heaven only serves to bolster my position. The 4 directions of the compass were linked with Alexander's entire kingdom being split up into four kingdoms located in roughly all four directions on the map.

Yes, linked...BUT NOT LIMITED TO. Where does it say the four winds must refer to the four horns? That's what I mean by "subjective nonsense" - because you're using subjective reasoning. The four winds stretch well beyond the borders of the Greek four horns...the West wind all the way to Rome.

It was in the latter time of the four horns' kingdom when "their sins are come to the full" (Dan. 8:23) that the little horn arose to power. Those "sins" were part of the constant fight for supremacy between Alexander's commanders which continued until their number dropped to two main rulers (the Ptolemies and the Seleucids).

Did Cassander's kingdom end with the death of Cassander?
Did Ptolemy's kingdom end with the death of Ptolemy?
Did Lysimachus' kingdom end with the death of Lysimichus?

Neither did Seleucid's kingdom end with the death of Seleucid.

The "latter end" of these kingdoms occurred when they were conquered by the Roman Empire. The "Little Horn" is Roman - not Greek.

The little horn "destroyed the mighty and the holy people" (Dan. 8:24) by Antiochus E's vicious campaign against the Jewish religion.

You guys see "sanctuary" and immediately assume "Jewish" because you don't understand prophecy. You all start counting the "sanctuaries" in Scripture and can only number "six" - because you don't take into account the seventh - the one in heaven that Jesus our High Priest ministers even now in the Most Holy Place.

Why do Jesuit Futurists and Jesuit Preterists admit the 70 Weeks are symbolic for "490 years" but you leave the 2300 Days as literal days? Protestant Historicism requires no such inconsistency.

The 70 Weeks which are for "thy people/holy city" are "cut off" from the 2300 Days which are not merely for "thy people/holy city" - the 2300 Days extend all the way to 1844 A.D. when there was no "Jewish religion".

His army was recorded in history as "treading underfoot" the sanctuary and the host for a time span of those "2,300 mornings and evenings" (or 1,150 days) before the Maccabees cleansed that sanctuary.

There is no such record!

According to the authorities, the precise dates that cover this period of temple desecration are well established and cover exactly 3 years and 10 days, so 2300 days is completely out the window - which is why you guys resort to the 1150 "evenings/mornings" - which still doesn't fit because 3 Bible years is 1080 days plus the other 10 days which brings the total days of desecration to 1090 days which means you have to add another SIXTY non-existent days of desecration to make up the whole 1150!

Christ in His days was celebrating the "feast of dedication" based on this Maccabean victory when they had cleansed the temple and rededicated it after defeating the army of the "little horn".

What part of "the veil in the temple was torn in twain from top to bottom" do you not understand? Do you not understand there wasn't a man alive that could tear that thick veil? That it was God Who reached down from on high and tore it "from top to bottom" signifying that He was through with the earthly temple?

No, the only temple which required cleansing "with better sacrifices than these" is the heavenly sanctuary, which our High Priest Jesus began cleansing in 1844, when the 2300 Days prophecy ended.

 

[Phoneman777]

Learn from the bible what Christ means.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

The messiah concept stems from Jewish tradition of a promised King of Israel, descended from David, who will lead Israel and the world into a messianic age of peace and safety.

The Antichrist will be a false messiah, mistaken by the Jews as their long awaited King of Israel messiah, follwing the Gog/Magog event.

The prince who shall come is one stage of the person to become the Antichrist. The prince who shall come immediately follows the Gog/Magog event. The 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 are the 7 years of Daniel 9:27. On my diagram below.

the Antichrist:
The common name for the end times person of evil. He begins as the little horn person > then becomes the prince who shall come > then becomes the Antichrist > then becomes the revealed man of sin > then becomes the beast-king.



View attachment 46710

I propose you learn the truth instead of following Jesuit lies, friend:

 

[Jay Ross]

I propose you learn the truth instead of following Jesuit lies, friend:

View attachment 46740

So, the truth is that you are presenting either a JW or and SDA POV.

You are not better than @gouggg for peddling false ideals

Goodbye

 

[Douggg]

The 70 Weeks which are for "thy people/holy city" are "cut off" from the 2300 Days which are not merely for "thy people/holy city" - the 2300 Days extend all the way to 1844 A.D. when there was no "Jewish religion".

1844, the SDA year of "the Great Disappointment" that Jesus did not return as certain groups projected. And Ellen G. White coming up with her "investigative judgement" teaching as a result.

Instead what about just accepting that SDA's assertion that 2300 days are days. and not years as SDA asserts?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Did Cassander's kingdom end with the death of Cassander?
Did Ptolemy's kingdom end with the death of Ptolemy?
Did Lysimachus' kingdom end with the death of Lysimichus?

Neither did Seleucid's kingdom end with the death of Seleucid.

The "latter end" of these kingdoms occurred when they were conquered by the Roman Empire. The "Little Horn" is Roman - not Greek.

The prevailing four kingdoms had dwindled down to the two Greek kingdoms of the Ptolemies and the Seleucids before Rome swept in and overtook those two kingdoms in the person of Pompey the Great (he became the Roman "king of the north" in Daniel 11:40-45).

The "little horn" of Daniel 8:9 (aka the "vile person" of Daniel 11:21) rose to power and then died before the Roman Pompey the Great (Daniel 11:40-45) eventually took over and subjugated those two kingdoms of the Ptolemies and the Seleucids.

The 70 Weeks which are for "thy people/holy city" are "cut off" from the 2300 Days which are not merely for "thy people/holy city" - the 2300 Days extend all the way to 1844 A.D. when there was no "Jewish religion".

No, the period of time designated 2,300 mornings and evenings was a segment of time within the 70-week prophecy (490 years from 454 BC until AD 37) that was said to deal with Daniel's ethnic people and their holy city. It wasn't 2,300 years, nor was it even said to be 2,300 days of 24 hours each. Daniel 8:14 only mentions 2,300 morning ("ereb") and evening ("Boqer") oblations that were offered, which makes a total of 1,150 literal days of 24 hours each. And this was the time period when Antiochus Epiphanes IV had his army taking away the daily sacrifices and casting down the place of the sanctuary in Jerusalem.

Josephus records this amount of time that Antiochus E's army held control in Jerusalem until they were defeated by the Maccabees in the Preface to "Wars" (19). "For example, I shall relate how Antiochus, who was named Epiphanes, took Jerusalem by force, and held it three years and three months, and was then ejected out of the country by the sons of Asamaneus"..." (which was the Hasmoneans, or the Maccabees).

No, the only temple which required cleansing "with better sacrifices than these" is the heavenly sanctuary, which our High Priest Jesus began cleansing in 1844, when the 2300 Days prophecy ended.

I reject the notion that the heavenly sanctuary has EVER needed cleansing, let alone being "cleansed in 1844".

 

[Phoneman777]

So, the truth is that you are presenting either a JW or and SDA POV.

You are not better than @gouggg for peddling false ideals

Goodbye

You keep on believing Jesuit lies, friend, and see where that gets you in the judgment.

 

[Phoneman777]

1844, the SDA year of "the Great Disappointment" that Jesus did not return as certain groups projected.

Your understanding of church history is a bit lacking, friend.

There was no "SDA" in 1844.

There were, however, people from all different Protestant denominations who - because of the "Great Religious Awakening" in which people all over the world simultaneously began studying end times Bible prophecy - believed the "advent" of Jesus was very soon, in opposition to the universally accepted teaching of that time that the church was entering a "thousand years of peace". They were derogatorily referred to as "Adventists" and were persecuted and kicked out of their churches.

And Ellen G. White coming up with her "investigative judgement" teaching as a result.

Wrong again, friend. These "advent believers" from all churches indeed were disappointed and disenchanted - but a core group of devout believers sought God in prayer and Bible study and discovered they've made a crucial mistake: the "cleansing of the sanctuary" was not the "fiery Second Coming of Jesus to burn up a sinful Earth" - they discovered the sanctuary in heaven in which our High Priest ministers.

All one has to do is look at the OT sanctuary service ritual year with an understanding that it is a "type and a shadow of heavenly things" to discover the Investigative Judgment going on right now is Biblical with plenty of text to support it.

Instead what about just accepting that SDA's assertion that 2300 days are days. and not years as SDA asserts?

Why would a man suddenly pass out and remain sick for a number of days from being told his 70 year captivity still had another 6 years left, which he already knew about?

 

[Douggg]

Why would a man suddenly pass out and remain sick for a number of days from being told his 70 year captivity still had another 6 years left, which he already knew about?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Try to communicate by copying and pasting the specific bible verses you are referring to.

The 2300 days in Daniel 8 are 2300 days, not 2300 years.

 

[Douggg]

I propose you learn the truth instead of following Jesuit lies, friend:

View attachment 46740

Where on that chart are the end times time frames ? The chart has no time frames. Nor any bible passage references.

 

[Douggg]

I propose you learn the truth instead of following Jesuit lies, friend:

View attachment 46740

Here is a timeline chart I made. Notice that it has a red line critical path of events, and times frames, and bible verse references.

 

[Douggg]

So, the truth is that you are presenting either a JW or and SDA POV.

You are not better than @gouggg for peddling false ideals

Goodbye

Jay, Phoneman777 is presenting the SDA pov, not the JW pov.

I am presenting no particular denomination point of view.

Get a haircut and trim the beard.

 

[Jay Ross]

I am presenting no particular denomination point of view.

That is true as it is a cobbled together theory which draws from the Bible ideas that when viewed does not make any logical sense except for yourself just like other fringe dwellers of faith who are searching for answers.

Goodbye.

PS: - I believe that I can predict your response like your attempted put down of: -

Get a haircut and trim the beard.

Oh Douggg it is so sad when you respond in this manner

 

[Douggg]

That is true as it is a cobbled together theory which draws from the Bible ideas that when viewed does not make any logical sense except for yourself just like other fringe dwellers of faith who are searching for answers.

Goodbye.

Jay, look at my post #33 - the timeline chart. You have no timeline chart.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, look at my post #33 - the timeline chart. You have no timeline chart.

But Douggg, where are we today timewise with respect to the End Times?

Creating a timeline "chart" does not mean that you actually have any understanding at all.

I have a chart that is reasonably detailed from the time of the creation of Adam up to the end of this present age in around 20 years time, but the events of the little while period after the Bottomless Pit is unlocked is difficult to represent in a spatial representation of time, particularly when some of the prophetically described events in the Book of Revelation have already passed and yet you are showing them to be still future.

Douggg, I can lead a horse to water, but it is sometimes impossible to get the horse to drink from the water trough.

Goodbye

 

[Douggg]

I have a chart that is reasonably detailed from the time of the creation of Adam up to the end of this present age in around 20 years time, but the events of the little while period after the Bottomless Pit is unlocked is difficult to represent in a spatial representation of time, particularly when some of the prophetically described events in the Book of Revelation have already passed and yet you are showing them to be still future.

You don't show anything. You have no chart of the 15 end times time frames in the bible. You are whining about what others present chart wise, yet you don't produce anything yourself.

 

[Jay Ross]

You don't show anything. You have no chart of the 15 end times time frames in the bible. You are whining about what others present chart wise, yet you don't produce anything yourself.

Just because you keep posting your work of creating charts, it does not mean that your charts are right.

Perhaps y you need to clean the wax out of your ears. Please prooooooooooooooovide the context of why you consider your charts to be right

Goodbye

 

[Phoneman777]

The prevailing four kingdoms had dwindled down to the two Greek kingdoms of the Ptolemies and the Seleucids before Rome swept in and overtook those two kingdoms in the person of Pompey the Great (he became the Roman "king of the north" in Daniel 11:40-45).

Still waiting for the answer.

The "little horn" of Daniel 8:9 (aka the "vile person" of Daniel 11:21) rose to power and then died before the Roman Pompey the Great (Daniel 11:40-45) eventually took over and subjugated those two kingdoms of the Ptolemies and the Seleucids.

The Roman Little Horn arises at the end of the four Greek empires and was "exceeding great" above Alex the Great or MP. The only thing Antiochus excelled at was championing mediocrity.

No, the period of time designated 2,300 mornings and evenings was a segment of time within the 70-week prophecy (490 years from 454 BC until AD 37) that was said to deal with Daniel's ethnic people and their holy city. It wasn't 2,300 years, nor was it even said to be 2,300 days of 24 hours each.

The text says the 490 days are "cut off" from something - the only prophetic period from which they can be cut off is the larder 2300 days.

Daniel 8:14 only mentions 2,300 morning ("ereb") and evening ("Boqer") oblations that were offered, which makes a total of 1,150 literal days of 24 hours each. And this was the time period when Antiochus Epiphanes IV had his army taking away the daily sacrifices and casting down the place of the sanctuary in Jerusalem.

It doesn't say 2300 "oblations" - it says 2300 "evenings and mornings" in the same way Genesis says the "evening and the morning" were the first day.

"For example, I shall relate how Antiochus, who was named Epiphanes, took Jerusalem by force, and held it three years and three months,

Question: Does the prophecy say the Little Horn would "take Jerusalem by force and hold it" or to "the daily (sacrifice) was taken away"?
Answer: It says by the Little Horn "the daily (sacrifice) was taken away" - your Josephus quote is null.

Now, here's how long Josephus says Antiochus suspended the temple sacrifice:

"He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months." - Josephus, Of the War, Book I​

Josephus says it lasted 1260 days which disqualifies Antiochus by 170 days too long.
The authorities say it lasted 1090 days which disqualifies Antiochus by 60 days too short.

NOW, LET'S GET DOWN TO THE NITTY GRITTY:​

Question: Does Daniel 8:11 KJV say "daily sacrifice" or just "daily"?
Answer: It says "daily" - the word "sacrifice" is not in the original Hebrew.

The "daily" ("tamid") refers to the entire sacrificial ceremonial system which includes things like trimming the candlesticks, filling the lampstands with oil, preparation of the shewbread, etc. - not just the animal sacrifice on the altar! Antiochus never took away the entire system and no one argues that he did. But, you know who did? The papacy "cast the truth to the ground" when it hijacked Christ's High Priestly "daily" ministry of Intercession and took it over. The Little Horn is the papacy which arose in Rome.

I reject the notion that the heavenly sanctuary has EVER needed cleansing, let alone being "cleansed in 1844".

Hebrews 9:23 KJV

"It was therefore necessary that the patterns (Earthly temple) of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."