The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

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rebuilder 454

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All talk and no substance. Citing a verse proves nothing. Claiming victory proves nothing. Framing every argument in your favor shows a distinct lack of evidence for your position. I asked for *explicit Pretrib doctrine,* and you still bat zero. Sorry, just being factual--nothing personal.
A rapture during the tribulation
Rev14:14.
1 thes 4 has the dead rising first.
That means tge dead rise pretrib, because they are first. Main harvest is alongside the dead rising first. No sickle, no horses.

It is you that can not show us a single verse of a postrib rapture!
how ironic that you guys are " verseless"

any rapture verse outside Rev 14 :14 is peacetime, normal life, and commerce.
But do read Rev 14:14.
We educate you guys with verses.
Your reply, " the Bible is bat zero."
We own the debate big time.
That is why you meet verses with fluff, deflection and filler.
 
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MA2444

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Christ has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.

But the promise is only for those who refuse to be rapture wimps.

All scripture must agree with all other scriptures. Jesus also promised this:

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him..../KJV

Revelation 3:10
10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world. ../NLT

So what do I do with these scriptures? Tear those pages out of my Bible?

If the church goes through the great trib, what wrath will we be saved from?
 

The Light

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LOL. Again, this is all you Pretribbers have: personal opinion. You cannot bring anything of evidential worth to the table because it does not exist. You all seem scared to identify your real beliefs because it will be quickly exposed.
I can bring scripture to the table. Again, that is not the problem. The problem as always is getting you understand what is written.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which will be a time such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall ever be.

So your contention about the tribulation period of those days is proven false by scripture. It has not started yet.

 

rebuilder 454

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That is all you can do. You can list random Scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with Pretrib (and which actually forbid your doctrine) and think that you have proved something. That is not the way it works. That just serves to expose the folly of your beliefs. You seem to have a problem with exegeting Scripture. You are scared of it! That is because it runs country to your extra-biblical taught beliefs.

Pretrib has been demolished on this thread. All of you guys are on the run. What are you scared of? What are you trying to hide? A secret rapture?
You demolished that the rapture verses have no white horses in them?
You demolished Rev 14:14 declaration Jesus raptures Jews with a sickle?
(Rev 14: demolishes all but a pretrib rapture)
Lol...this is like shooting ducks in a barrel


You demolished that the 144k are in heaven during the tribulation??????
You demolished the virgins parable???
Oh wait. Yes you certainly changed that parable around to fit a poorly thought out doctrine.

How ironic that you are indeed a demolisher
 

MA2444

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And just as in all things spiritual, certain truths are held back from unbelievers. They cannot see spiritual values if they choose to not live by them. This is true both OT and NT, both before Christ came in the words of the Law and also after Christ came in the words of Christ.

Did you just contradict yourself? I thought you said:

I don't think the Holy Spirit is playing a game of "clues."

So which is it?
 

The Light

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Catholics did indeed believe in 1 Thes 4--they just would not call it the "Rapture" in the sense Dispensationalists mean it. They don't believe in a secret, Pretribulational Rapture because it just isn't in the Scriptures. That's also why many traditional Protestant sects do not believe in it. That's also why I do not believe in it--it isn't in the Scriptures. If it was, it would've been a major eschatological system prior to 1830. But it wasn't.
So many don't believe because they can't pinpoint when it will happen. And yet we can see it happened in Rev 4 and 5.

I would characterize Christian eschatology in history to be much closer aligned with Amillennial Postribulationism. When Christ comes, the world ends. I'm not personally an Amillennial adherent, but I respect the position as a strong historical argument.
I agree. But it is totally incorrect.
So you're a Catholic basher, and that's your basis for giving up on Postribulationism?
First, I am not a Catholic basher. I grew up in a strong Catholic family. Then I got ahold of a Bible. The Catholics do not teach the Word of God.
But I thought you said Postrib is basically the "new kid on the block," and that Pretrib is the revered orthodox eschatological position in history? If I remember correctly, you're sort of unorthodox in your version of Pretribulationism?
I am still a post trib believer.

However, I understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. I also understand who is raptured at the 6th seal. Additionally, I believe there will be a pretribulation rapture. There are two raptures and none of them occur at the end of the trumpets.

Well, be happy with what you believe. I think the Lord will straighten things out in His own time. He loves us, and may care more about what we believe on this subject in the future, when it more directly pertains to us?
Time is short brother. Very, very short.
 

rebuilder 454

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This is what Jesus said about his Coming...

Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Jesus said it, and we should be warned. We are *not* to accept any Pretribulational Coming of the Lord because it violates what Jesus warned about us here, which is a false eschatology that presents Christ as coming before his coming with the clouds.

Jesus is drawing upon Dan 7, which says this...

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

In case you have any doubt about it, Daniel is talking about seeing the Son of Man come from heaven, just as Jesus described it in his Olivet Discourse (Matt 24). This takes place in order to destroy the Man of Sin, the Antichrist. Here is the context....

Dan 7.24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’"


This indicates that the Son of Man, the Messiah, is coming from heaven to destroy the Man of Sin, the Antichrist, in order to establish God's Kingdom on earth and to save God's People. This is why the Apostle John called him "the Antichrist," and why Paul called him "the Man of Sin." It is also why the book of Revelation sees him as the Beast with 10 kings and the Beast being an individual who presides over them, opposing the coming Kingdom of Christ.

All of these passages are saying the exact same thing. So Christians who wish to promote a preliminary coming of Christ are directly defying Jesus' statement that he is only coming with the clouds, and not before. Defy God's word at your own peril. I know you've been taught Pretrib by good Christians. But good Christians can be deceived. Trust them where they are reliable but question them when what they teach is indefensible.
QUOTE

""Jesus said it, and we should be warned. We are *not* to accept any Pretribulational Coming of the Lord because it violates what Jesus warned about us here, which is a false eschatology that presents Christ as coming before his coming with the clouds.""
Rev 14: 14
Acts 1 " like manner"
Mat 24 "before the flood" / mat 24 " one taken"
These 4 and others ,Are not the coming on white horses.
All rapture verses..but demolish all but a pretrib rapture.
Again...we own the debate.
None of you can even begin to change our verses, making your mastery of ignoring and omitting ,tedious.
 

rebuilder 454

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LOL. Again, this is all you Pretribbers have: personal opinion. You cannot bring anything of evidential worth to the table because it does not exist. You all seem scared to identify your real beliefs because it will be quickly exposed.

So, how long is your trib?
Actually when mat 25 was put on the table. You got a postribber scalpel out ,and cut it up, to patch fit it into your doctrine.
Are you scared of that parable friend?
 
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rebuilder 454

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Let me try and help you. We see the same scene (and similar language) in Matthew 7:21-23: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Which “day” is Jesus talking about? His return. There are many people like that in this world. They have religion, but no real relationship. It says here: what they did in life was “in His name,” yet they were locked outside. They ask Jesus: have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works?” From this statement we can take it: they expected to be in heaven. However, Jesus will say to them, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

How will these religious people handle these sobering words of Christ on that final day of judgement? They were foolish to swallow a religious lie. They sat under preaching that told them that they could get to heaven by their own good works. All their religious efforts were in vain. It was a sham. The foolish virgins are locked outside because they reject Christ; Christ then rejects them at the end. That is why He doesn’t know them. He has no relationship with them. Their religion is vain. It is bogus. They have missed their opportunity, now they must receive the judgment. This is just a parallel of all that were locked outside the ark at the flood. They are going to be banished into outer darkness – for all eternity with the rest of the wicked.

Those awful words “depart from me, ye that work iniquity” spell eternal damnation for every person left outside of the ark when Jesus comes. People are either ‘caught up’ or ‘caught on’. In fact anytime Jesus employed these words it always referred to His coming and the solemn sentences that damned the ungodly. Jesus said of the goats in Matthew 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

The Lord similarly teaches in Luke 13:24-28, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Oh what an awful day that will be, when the wicked find themselves locked outside of God’s ark – the Lord Jesus Christ. Damned without hope or without Christ. This reminds me of the actual day that Noah entered into the ark in Genesis 7:16. It solemnly tells us of Noah and the ark door, “and the LORD shut him in.” What happened to those locked outside. They were totally and immediately destroyed.

The whole unsaved world will see Jesus return when He comes (Rev 1:7) and realize they have missed it. This is where they mourn and cry (or knock as the parable of the 10 virgins put it), but it is too late. Jesus then pours out His wrath on these rebels causing their immediate and total destruction. Jesus tells us that it will be like Noah's day when Jesus locked His elect in and those outside the door who missed the boat were immediately judged. He destroyed them all (Luke 17). It was same in the city of Sodom. He destroyed all the wicked after bringing His elect out (Luke 17).
Every attempt you made at the 50 50 dynamic of mat 24 and 25 , just jumps all over the place.
You hint that they are believers vs carnal believers, then you jump over to the entire planet killed but 8 survive, then you jump over to lot and try out an entire town of thousands against lot and his family

Huh???
You know what 50-50 is???
It is half. One half vs the other half.
I know it is really messing up your doctrine, but who are the " one leftt...one taken of mat 24?
It is unbelievably simple.
A child could answer who are left/ taken.
Pssssst...it ain't half the people on the planet.
A good little clue
 
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WPM

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Actually when mat 25 was put on the table. You got a postribber scalpel out ,and cut it up, to patch fit it into your doctrine.
Are you scared of that parable friend?
The reader will see Pretribbers have no answer to text after text here. Remember we are just looking at your supposed prooftexts. It is clear you have nothing to support your teaching apart from private speculations, extra-biblical theories and forced types. If you had rebuttals you would bring them to the table.
 

rebuilder 454

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More avoidance. I am engaging with you not to change you (because you are closed minded), but to show the reader the folly of Pretrib. Your avoidance is making my case so easy. Keep it up!

I have already addressed this point with you about. I'm not going to keep repeating it. The parable of the 10 virgins has nothing to do with 50% being saved and 50% not within the Church. It has nothing to do with 50% or professors being genuine and 50% not. It has equally nothing to do with the percentage of society that will know Christ when He comes. The 50/50 breakdown is an earthly illustration relating to preparedness; some were wise and prepared others were foolish and were caught on. This is what will happen when Jesus comes. Remember, the broad road holds the vast bulk of mankind. There are few on the narrow road. This truth is played out throughout Scripture.
Wow
You actually came close.
But no half the world saved, half going to hell is way,way off.
You didn't go to Sunday school when you were a child where they taught you that narrow is the way that leads to life and few there are that enter But broad is the way that enter into destruction and many there are that fall into that ?????
 

WPM

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Every attempt you made at the 50 50 dynamic of mat 24 and 25 jumps all around.
You hint that they are believers vs carnal believers, then you jump over to the entire planet killed but 8 survive, then you jump over to lot and try out an entire town of thousands against lot and his family

Huh???
You know what 50-50 is???
It is half. One half vs the other half.
I know it is really messing up your doctrine, but who are the " one leftt...one taken of mat 24?
It is unbelievably simple.
A child could answer who are left/ taken.
Pssssst...it ain't half the people on the planet.
A good little clue
I totally disagree. You do not seem to grasp the meaning of parables. They are earthly stories revealing deep spiritual realities. Notwithstanding, you are totally missing the point. Those left behind miss the boat. They face destruction. It is the end. There is no 7-year trib mentioned here or anywhere else in Scripture.

This supports the Amil thesis.
 

The Light

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The very fact you have to explain this indicates it is in question.
The very fact that I have to explain it indicates you currently don't understand what you are reading.

1) False Christs 1st appeared among Jewish believers in Jesus' time. But they continue to appear throughout the present age.
2) The Beast Kingdom afflicts believers from all nations. That's why the Great Multitude emerges out of the great tribulation at the end of the age. To think that Antichrist's object of persecution is strictly Jewish believers is absolutely ludicrous. Antichrist is trying to purge the world of Christianity, which is a world-wide religion!
Behold I have told you before. There will be two false Christs that will rise in the last days......soon. The beast of the earth and the beast of the sea. The beast of the sea was.......and is not...........and will come again. The Jews are warned. Do believe the Messiah is in the desert or in the secret chamber. When you see the Messiah it will be like lightning................


That runs counter to Jesus' clear statement that he will not come until he is revealed to the world from heaven. This is not a secret coming, and it is based on Dan 7 where the Son of Man is revealed with the clouds to destroy the Antichrist and to establish God's Kingdom on earth. Again, this cannot be a secret coming!
First off, there is a secret coming.

Song of Solomon
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

Song of Solomon 2
13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

Secondly, the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord is at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All go to heaven for the marriage supper at return with the armies of heaven.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
That's how visions sometimes are presented, as if the prophet sees God's Kingdom coming now when really, it is coming only at the consummation of the age. The seals, trumpets, and bowls are purely lists of grand finale events, not necessarily given to present a chronological sequence. Many of the visions will be fulfilled at the same time. They are given as lists for purposes of the narrative, but not to produce a strict timing sequence. In biblical prophecy, timing is God's domain.
I agree but there is a timing given.
I have a difficult time discussing this subject with you because you identify with more than one school of prophecy. I'd say only you can say where you're learning things. But if what you're learning is an errant interpretation of the Bible, then you're not learning from the Holy Spirit, but from something else.
It's pretty difficult to discuss with me because the ideas that are used against the pretrib theory don't work with me because I also believe in a post trib rapture. And post trib is actually pre wrath as the tribulation can easily be proven to end at the 6th seal.
How many times do I have to tell you? Look up the word "prolepsis." When I learned the meaning of that word my whole view of the book of Revelation changed.
This is why I'm asking you to give the order of events in Revelation. I don't think you are understanding what you are reading.

Try to put Revelation 6 through Revelation 16 in the order of occurrence. If some events happen in the same timeframe just say so. I have yet to see anyone that understands what they are reading.
 

rebuilder 454

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The reader will see Pretribbers have no answer to text after text here. Remember we are just looking at your supposed prooftexts. It is clear you have nothing to support your teaching apart from private speculations, extra-biblical theories and forced types. If you had rebuttals you would bring them to the table.
You could not unpack the virgins parable without modifying it.
It is unbelievably simple, but you false doctrine MADE YOU change God's word.
And here you sit, with no red flags slapping God in the face by changing his word like a cult member.
Woah.
That doctrine is a beast that carried you into the desert and I slew it.
You are afoot now friend.
You even celebrate butchering the virgins parable.
Woah.
SMH
 

WPM

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Actually when mat 25 was put on the table. You got a postribber scalpel out ,and cut it up, to patch fit it into your doctrine.
Are you scared of that parable friend?
You have to skip these passages because your view is exposed by them.
 

rebuilder 454

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I totally disagree. You do not seem to grasp the meaning of parables. They are earthly stories revealing deep spiritual realities. Notwithstanding, you are totally missing the point. Those left behind miss the boat. They face destruction. It is the end. There is no 7-year trib mentioned here or anywhere else in Scripture.

This supports the Amil thesis.
Half is half.
You " you dont seem to grasp..."
Uh huh.
You are making a fool of yourself.
 

rebuilder 454

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You have to skip these passages because your view is exposed by them.
Hard to believe how you changed the parable and sit there pointing and laughing as you are making a fool of yourself.
You openly changed God's word.
SMH
 

rebuilder 454

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That is so weak! Nobody is saying that English words need to be in Greek manuscripts. What we need to be able to read in the original and in translations is *doctrine*--not subjective interpretations of symbols and parables.
It was a joke.
I was taking his silly false logic to its natural conclusion.
Yes his argument is weak, as you enlightened us.
 
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rebuilder 454

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All talk and no substance. Citing a verse proves nothing. Claiming victory proves nothing. Framing every argument in your favor shows a distinct lack of evidence for your position. I asked for *explicit Pretrib doctrine,* and you still bat zero. Sorry, just being factual--nothing personal.
"Factual" would be actually reading Rev 14:14 and agreeing there is a unique rapture there that is nor 1 thes 4 nor is it Rev 19, nor is it the rapture of mat 24 " before the flood,one taken / left behind"
That is a fact.
Very factual.
Irrefutable as all postribbers have show us.
They can not go there ar all.
 

WPM

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Half is half.
You " you dont seem to grasp..."
Uh huh.
You are making a fool of yourself.
There is a clear pattern arising on this thread: Pretribbers have nothing to bring to the table apart from extra-biblical soundbites. They seem incapable of actually discussing the detail of the sacred text. There are so many detailed post above that have been sidestepped and ignored. That is damning for your case.

Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?