The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[WPM]

"Factual" would be actually reading Rev 14:14 and agreeing there is a unique rapture there that is nor 1 thes 4 nor is it Rev 19, nor is it the rapture of mat 24 " before the flood,one taken / left behind"
That is a fact.
Very factual.
Irrefutable as all postribbers have show us.
They can not go there ar all.

Where is your seven year tribulation following Rev 14:14? Where is your seven year tribulation after "one taken / left behind"? You have nothing. You have to force it into the sacred text. That is called adding unto Scripture. You have nothing.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Hmmmmm
Interesting how postribbers can not unpack the virgins parable without changing the components around, or just flat out lying about them.
But we have also learned in this thread that none of them understand the dynamic of 50/50.
Now I find that very interesting ,because I think we learned that in the second or third grade ?
But it completely baffles every single post tribber.
they don't know the one taken the one left behind would be half ???
they don't understand that that would be a 50/50 dynamic???
They also don't understand that if you have 10 virgins and half of them get left behind that is also a 50/50 dynamic???
They'll try to say well it's just those that are unsaved that are left behind ,or they'll try to say that half the world is going to hell.
Now I think I also learned in Sunday school as a wee lad ,that many are going to hell but very few enter into the kingdom of God.
And yet post tribbers just get all tangled up over those very very simple facts.

 

[WPM]

You could not unpack the virgins parable without modifying it.
It is unbelievably simple, but you false doctrine MADE YOU change God's word.
And here you sit, with no red flags slapping God in the face by changing his word like a cult member.
Woah.
That doctrine is a beast that carried you into the desert and I slew it.
You are afoot now friend.
You even celebrate butchering the virgins parable.
Woah.
SMH

Not true! I will repost!

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out”is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

In this parable, Jesus rejects the unprepared virgins. In Pretrib theology it does not have Jesus finally shutting the door (as He taught), but, rather, leaving it ajar. It gives the foolish virgins a second chance to make it. despite them being unprepared and despite them having rejected numerous opportunities before He comes they miss the boat.

This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming. It is nothing to do with percentages. Many parables are like that. It is to do with believers and unbelievers. It is describing those that are ready and those that are not. The enlightened will get the thrust. Whether theologians want to apply this to the visible church or to all mankind makes little difference. That is not worth fighting over. It is the overall trust that Christ is pressing up - be prepared.

Obviously those left behind are unbelievers! Whether they are religious unbelievers, false professors within the visible church, or out and out heathen, is secondary. They simply do not belong to Jesus. They are lost. They miss the boat! Their day of opportunity is gone. All they have now is destruction. They are damned and doomed to a lost eternity.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is a clear pattern arising on this thread: Pretribbers have nothing to bring to the table apart from extra-biblical soundbites. They seem incapable of actually discussing the detail of the sacred text. There are so many detailed post above that have been sidestepped and ignored. That is damning for your case.

Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

Lol
I point out that 50-50 is beyond the grasp of your workbook talking points.
And you further fail and make a fool.of yourself by going off on a rabbit trail deflection
.
You don't see what you are doing????
You MAKE MY CASE WITH AVOIDANCE.
You and every postribber can not say who is left behind.

It is comical watching you hide friend.

 

[WPM]

You could not unpack the virgins parable without modifying it.
It is unbelievably simple, but you false doctrine MADE YOU change God's word.
And here you sit, with no red flags slapping God in the face by changing his word like a cult member.
Woah.
That doctrine is a beast that carried you into the desert and I slew it.
You are afoot now friend.
You even celebrate butchering the virgins parable.
Woah.
SMH

We see the same scene (and similar language) in Matthew 7:21-23: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Which “day” is Jesus talking about here - as in "that day"? His one and only glorious return. This is shown to be judgment day for the wicked. It is when they are brought to give account for their lives. This supports a general judgment when Jesus comes.

These wicked religious people are shown in this parable to be foolishly boasting to Jesus about their religious achievements: “have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works?” From this statement we can take it: they expected to be in heaven. However, Jesus will say to them, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

There are many people like that in this world. They have religion in their head, but do not have Jesus in their hearts. They have religion, but not a real relationship. It says here: what they did in life was “in His name,” yet they were locked out.

How will these religious people handle these sobering words of Christ on that final day of judgement? They were foolish to swallow a religious lie. They sat under preaching that told them that they could get to heaven by their own good works. All their religious efforts were in vain. It was a sham. The foolish virgins are locked outside because they reject Christ; Christ then rejects them at the end. That is why He doesn’t know them. He has no relationship with them. Their religion is vain. It is bogus. They have missed their opportunity, now they must receive the judgment. This is just a parallel of all that were locked outside the ark at the flood. They are going to be banished into outer darkness – for all eternity with the rest of the wicked.

The Lord similarly teaches in Luke 13:24-28, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

What an awful day this will be, when the wicked find themselves locked outside of God's eternal abode. They will be damned without hope or without Christ. This corresponds to the actual day that Noah entered into the ark in Genesis 7:16. It solemnly tells us of Noah and the ark door, “and the LORD shut him in.” What happened to those locked outside. They were totally and immediately destroyed.

The whole unsaved world will see Jesus return when He comes (Rev 1:7) and realize they have missed it. This is where they mourn and cry (or knock as the parable of the 10 virgins put it), but it is too late. Jesus then pours out His wrath on these rebels causing their immediate and total destruction. Jesus tells us that it will be like Noah's day when Jesus locked His elect in and those outside the door who missed the boat were immediately judged. He destroyed them all (Luke 17). It was same in the city of Sodom. He destroyed all the wicked after bringing His elect out (Luke 17).

The sentence that the wicked receive on judgment day is solemn: “depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” This confirms that this spells eternal damnation for every person left outside of the ark when Jesus comes. People are either ‘caught up’ or ‘caught on’. In fact anytime Jesus employed these words it always referred to His coming and the solemn sentences that damned the ungodly. Jesus said of the goats in Matthew 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not true! I will repost!

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out”is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

In this parable, Jesus rejects the unprepared virgins. In Pretrib theology it does not have Jesus finally shutting the door (as He taught), but, rather, leaving it ajar. It gives the foolish virgins a second chance to make it. despite them being unprepared and despite them having rejected numerous opportunities before He comes they miss the boat.

This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming. It is nothing to do with percentages. Many parables are like that. It is to do with believers and unbelievers. It is describing those that are ready and those that are not. The enlightened will get the thrust. Whether theologians want to apply this to the visible church or to all mankind makes little difference. That is not worth fighting over. It is the overall trust that Christ is pressing up - be prepared.

Obviously those left behind are unbelievers! Whether they are religious unbelievers, false professors within the visible church, or out and out heathen, is secondary. They simply do not belong to Jesus. They are lost. They miss the boat! Their day of opportunity is gone. All they have now is destruction. They are damned and doomed to a lost eternity.

Now you have unbelievers with light,oil ( the Holy Spirit) ,lamps, and watching and waiting for Jesus.
Huh?
You have in your postrib prism, Virgins as heathens....woah!
Virgins =pure, set apart, undefiled.
They are believers that let their oil run out.
The elephant in the room and you missed it

But like I said...you ABSOLUTELY must change it.
You even changed my testimony.
I never said or believed the door was left ajar.
You just can not get much straight can you?
But to modify the word of God without any red flags,????
Woah.

 

[rebuilder 454]

We see the same scene (and similar language) in Matthew 7:21-23: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Which “day” is Jesus talking about? His return. There are many people like that in this world. They have religion, but no real relationship. It says here: what they did in life was “in His name,” yet they were locked outside. They ask Jesus: “have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works?” From this statement we can take it: they expected to be in heaven. However, Jesus will say to them, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

How will these religious people handle these sobering words of Christ on that final day of judgement? They were foolish to swallow a religious lie. They sat under preaching that told them that they could get to heaven by their own good works. All their religious efforts were in vain. It was a sham. The foolish virgins are locked outside because they reject Christ; Christ then rejects them at the end. That is why He doesn’t know them. He has no relationship with them. Their religion is vain. It is bogus. They have missed their opportunity, now they must receive the judgment. This is just a parallel of all that were locked outside the ark at the flood. They are going to be banished into outer darkness – for all eternity with the rest of the wicked.

The Lord similarly teaches in Luke 13:24-28, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Oh what an awful day that will be, when the wicked find themselves locked outside of God’s ark – the Lord Jesus Christ. Damned without hope or without Christ. This reminds me of the actual day that Noah entered into the ark in Genesis 7:16. It solemnly tells us of Noah and the ark door, “and the LORD shut him in.” What happened to those locked outside. They were totally and immediately destroyed.

The whole unsaved world will see Jesus return when He comes (Rev 1:7) and realize they have missed it. This is where they mourn and cry (or knock as the parable of the 10 virgins put it), but it is too late. Jesus then pours out His wrath on these rebels causing their immediate and total destruction. Jesus tells us that it will be like Noah's day when Jesus locked His elect in and those outside the door who missed the boat were immediately judged. He destroyed them all (Luke 17). It was same in the city of Sodom. He destroyed all the wicked after bringing His elect out (Luke 17).

Those awful words “depart from me, ye that work iniquity” spell eternal damnation for every person left outside of the ark when Jesus comes. People are either ‘caught up’ or ‘caught on’. In fact anytime Jesus employed these words it always referred to His coming and the solemn sentences that damned the ungodly. Jesus said of the goats in Matthew 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Lol
You were challenged about the 50-50 dynamic.
Then you go to 2 or 3 verses that are not at all 50-50.
In fact your answer to 50-50 is more like 90-10
See this Is the place the postribber prism has lead you.

.....into a desert friend

 

[WPM]

Now you have unbelievers with light,oil ( the Holy Spirit) ,lamps, and watching and waiting for Jesus.
Huh?
You have in your postrib prism, Virgins as heathens....woah!
Virgins =pure, set apart, undefiled.
They are believers that let their oil run out.
The elephant in the room and you missed it

But like I said...you ABSOLUTELY must change it.
You even changed my testimony.
I never said or believed the door was left ajar.
You just can not get much straight can you?
But to modify the word of God without any red flags,????
Woah.

Thanks for totally sidestepping my post again. You have to. I will take that as a complement that it is biblically irrefutable. It is becoming abundantly clear to those watching on, no Pretrib can address the Posttrib arguments. That is because they are watertight. All Pretribs have is their evasive soundbites.

Your teachers have misled you. (1) Being a literal virgin does not in any way gain you entry into heaven. I do not no who would've taught you that, but they are deceiving you. That sounds like something that Islam would teach. (2) The foolish virgins have "no oil" in their vessels. They are unprepared. That is the thrust of this parable. Those that have eyes to see and do not have a theological agenda can see that. This is not talking about the Holy Spirit. He is not in a physical lamp but in a human life. This is not hard to get your head around.

I refer you back to the irrefutable avoided biblical evidence I presented.

 

[WPM]

Lol
You were challenged about the 50-50 dynamic.
Then you go to 2 or 3 verses that are not at all 50-50.
In fact your answer to 50-50 is more like 90-10
See this Is the place the postribber prism has lead you.

.....into a desert friend

More avoidance. You have no rebuttals apart from your Pretrib mocking evasive soundbites. This is classic Pretrib. That is all they have: avoidance and insults. Pretribs have no interest in engaging in biblical discussions. That is because it exposes their false teaching. Ad hominem is all they are left with.

I refer you back to the biblical evidence I presented.

 

[MA2444]

Catholics did indeed believe in 1 Thes 4--they just would not call it the "Rapture" in the sense Dispensationalists mean it. They don't believe in a secret, Pretribulational Rapture because it just isn't in the Scriptures. That's also why many traditional Protestant sects do not believe in it. That's also why I do not believe in it--it isn't in the Scriptures. If it was, it would've been a major eschatological system prior to 1830. But it wasn't.

But it's right there in 1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.../KJV

The thing is, that phrase "caught up" is used as a direct translation for the greek word "harpazo".

G726 - harpazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G726 - ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of ; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

www.blueletterbible.org

If caught up is translated from latin, they use the word rapture. So it depends on which translation you have, lol. And it talks all through scripture about He comes as a thief in the night, you dont know when He's coming (and He's been saying soon for over 2000 years!). So it is in the scriptures. That it fell out of belief so to speak to the masses doesn't mean it isn't true. It may suggest a coverup? I think the enemy might do something like that! What do you think?

 

[MA2444]

but who are the " one leftt...one taken of mat 24?
It is unbelievably simple.

That's a good point! I never thought of that before, lol. If the rapture is posttrib, then when 1 is taken and 1 left...left where? Jesus is here then! Right?
and they think they have demolished anything? They are asleeeep and dreeeaming.
It as plain as the print on the page. As clear as the day the Lord spoke those words.

Whoa think of that. All us slow learners on earth (Lol) still dont understand very much at all of what the Lord said....and He said this stuff (His Word) Off the Cuff! That's just our Lord talking.

 

[MA2444]

I have yet to see anyone that understands what they are reading.

That's what I was talking about. It starting to sound like Earth is a remedial school for slow learners. God must Love Stuid People! Because He made so many!

He didnt really, dems jokes. but by the choices that we make we choose the path. And there's lots ways to get lost and off of the (Yellow Brick Road!). Some are ahead of us on the yellow brick rd and some are behind us. It mostly comes down to diligence in studying to show ourselves approved and how long have you been on the YBR?

God had planted some seeds for a crop and some punk came and threw weed seeds everywhere to try to spoil the crop and God said ok I'l turn it into a school and Teach them all about Love, the most powerful force anywhere. If we pass this tremendously hard college class, they throw us a big party and promote us! If we fail, we get excuted.
No Human can pass it on their own. That's why we needed Jesus to come here and die to save us! So it isnt about what we do even though we are held accountable for our actions, but most of the grade hinges on effort. How much effort do we put into it? He knows we all fail it, but the harder we try the more He uses the sliding scale to grade us.

Look at life on earth (without God calling the shots, like NOW) and see what happens? We will kill of the entire planet. Is it not easy to see? That entire book makes sense and it sounds like the best Sci-Fi book I ever read! I bet when I get to heaven I keep my big mouth shut and not ask questions of God. I'm going to take His word for it from now on and obey everything He says!

The more I read what you post the more I find myself agreeing with you. We don't agree on all points, so one of us is making small errors there, perhaps both of us! Lol. It will take even more diligence. Maybe I should'a been a Monk?! Reading and praying. Praying and reading. Listening. reading prayerfully. Spiritual things are discerned spiritually and not carnally. We've been arguing with carnal christians. Sad. The Holy Spirit is real and alive and well with you. You better listen to Him!

I see our 2 fav detractors woke up on the wrong side of the bed again. Sigh...

 

[The Light]

That's what I was talking about. It starting to sound like Earth is a remedial school for slow learners. God must Love Stuid People! Because He made so many!

He didnt really, dems jokes. but by the choices that we make we choose the path. And there's lots ways to get lost and off of the (Yellow Brick Road!). Some are ahead of us on the yellow brick rd and some are behind us. It mostly comes down to diligence in studying to show ourselves approved and how long have you been on the YBR?

God had planted some seeds for a crop and some punk came and threw weed seeds everywhere to try to spoil the crop and God said ok I'l turn it into a school and Teach them all about Love, the most powerful force anywhere. If we pass this tremendously hard college class, they throw us a big party and promote us! If we fail, we get excuted.
No Human can pass it on their own. That's why we needed Jesus to come here and die to save us! So it isnt about what we do even though we are held accountable for our actions, but most of the grade hinges on effort. How much effort do we put into it? He knows we all fail it, but the harder we try the more He uses the sliding scale to grade us.

Look at life on earth (without God calling the shots, like NOW) and see what happens? We will kill of the entire planet. Is it not easy to see? That entire book makes sense and it sounds like the best Sci-Fi book I ever read! I bet when I get to heaven I keep my big mouth shut and not ask questions of God. I'm going to take His word for it from now on and obey everything He says!

The more I read what you post the more I find myself agreeing with you. We don't agree on all points, so one of us is making small errors there, perhaps both of us! Lol. It will take even more diligence. Maybe I should'a been a Monk?! Reading and praying. Praying and reading. Listening. reading prayerfully. Spiritual things are discerned spiritually and not carnally. We've been arguing with carnal christians. Sad. The Holy Spirit is real and alive and well with you. You better listen to Him!

Here is what I believe you need to look at. The tribulation of those days.....the Great Tribulation....is over at the 6th seal. Jesus comes......the second coming......and then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Most people have the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 at the end of the trumpets........Armageddon etc.....return on white horses. But the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal..........before the wrath of God. No believers are appointed to wrath. Anyone that has the Church going through the trumpets or vials are in error. This is where you begin because that coming of Jesus is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. It lets us match up Matthew 24 with Revelation.

I see our 2 fav detractors woke up on the wrong side of the bed again. Sigh...

lol

 

[WPM]

For those of you that are looking for verses about the pretribulation............

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Where is the tribulation mentioned that follows your supposed Pretrib rapture in this passage? Claims mean nothing without scriptural evidence.

 

[WPM]

"Factual" would be actually reading Rev 14:14 and agreeing there is a unique rapture there that is nor 1 thes 4 nor is it Rev 19, nor is it the rapture of mat 24 " before the flood,one taken / left behind"
That is a fact.
Very factual.
Irrefutable as all postribbers have show us.
They can not go there ar all.

Where is your seven year tribulation following Rev 14:14? Where is your seven year tribulation after "one taken / left behind"? You have nothing. You have to force it into the sacred text. That is called adding unto Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Jesus shouts to His people when He comes. (WAKE UP!) and they will wake up. The Angels come with the sound of a trumpet, hmmm.

During the rapture, there is a Translation of Believers.
During the 2nd coming, no Translation is involved.

Rapture: The Saints go to Heaven.
2nd coming: The Saints return with the Lord to the earth.

Rapture: is taught to be imminent, could be any moment.
2nd coming: is not imminent. It's 1260 days after the abomination of desolation.

Rapture: is before the day of wrath.
2nd coming: Concludes the day of wrath.

Rapture: He comes in the Air.
2nd coming: He comes to the earth!

Rapture: He comes FOR His bride.
2nd coming: He comes WITH His bride.

Rapture: Only the Saints see Him.
2nd coming: Every eye will see Him.

Rapture: The Tribulation begins.
2nd coming: The Millenium begins.

Rapture: No reference to Satan.
2nd coming: Satan is bound.

Now there is scriptures for all of these things. But I dont have to dig out the refrences for you, right? It's like you said yesterday, you know the scriptures very well, and said that WPM does too. So you have reall all of this before. Remember? I think you will.

That's off the top of my head but I'm sure there is more. But I'm still on my 1st cup of coffee right now, lol. So let this suffice for now and I'll get out my notes again later if you remain speaking reasonably. If you wont then there's no point, right?

Claims mean nothing without scriptural evidence. This is where your theory is lacking!

 

[WPM]

Here is what I believe you need to look at. The tribulation of those days.....the Great Tribulation....is over at the 6th seal. Jesus comes......the second coming......and then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Most people have the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 at the end of the trumpets........Armageddon etc.....return on white horses. But the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal..........before the wrath of God. No believers are appointed to wrath. Anyone that has the Church going through the trumpets or vials are in error. This is where you begin because that coming of Jesus is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. It lets us match up Matthew 24 with Revelation.

lol

You cannot even show us a first rapture in Revelation, so how can you have a second rapture?

 

[MA2444]

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

We don't know exactly when the rapture will be but we do know when exactly the Tribulation/Great Tribulation starts and that is with the signing of a 7 years peace covenant with Israel. This says the tribulation of those days and I sgree that the church may well be here for some trials and tribulations as all are promised in life. So the church will see some of this stuff (and we already are), but it isnt the big 2 part Tribulation it is,

John 16:33
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.../KJV

Matthew 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.../KJV

The thing is, it hasnt been bad yet. Not compared to how bad it will get. You might think it's bad, but we aint seen nothing yet. And it's a dynamic going on the world that is twofold. You have man and war & all that, and you have the earth and weather & all that. Volcanos, earthquakes. This is God's tool to shake up the earth, and shake it He will/IS.

And while Jesus is telling them all this, He keeps talking and starts talking about getting His people out in the nick of time and the rapture From Matthew v36 and on.

The rapture doesn't start the (G)Tribulation, the signng of the peace treaty does, but I bet it's very very soon thereafter.

That's how I understand it.

 

[WPM]

We don't know exactly when the rapture will be but we do know when exactly the Tribulation/Great Tribulation starts and that is with the signing of a 7 years peace covenant with Israel. This says the tribulation of those days and I sgree that the church may well be here for some trials and tribulations as all are promised in life. So the church will see some of this stuff (and we already are), but it isnt the big 2 part Tribulation it is,

John 16:33
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.../KJV

Matthew 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.../KJV

The thing is, it hasnt been bad yet. Not compared to how bad it will get. You might think it's bad, but we aint seen nothing yet. And it's a dynamic going on the world that is twofold. You have man and war & all that, and you have the earth and weather & all that. Volcanos, earthquakes. This is God's tool to shake up the earth, and shake it He will/IS.

And while Jesus is telling them all this, He keeps talking and starts talking about getting His people out in the nick of time and the rapture From Matthew v36 and on.

The rapture doesn't start the (G)Tribulation, the signng of the peace treaty does, but I bet it's very very soon thereafter.

That's how I understand it.

Where exactly in Scripture does it teach that "the Tribulation/Great Tribulation starts and that is with the signing of a 7 years peace covenant with Israel"?

 

[MA2444]

Claims mean nothing without scriptural evidence. This is what demolishes your theory. You have nothing.

Bad day again? Wow. Can you take a pill or something? Geez.

I thought you and your buddies have it well esatablished how well you know the scriptures? That your a Pastor? So is it true or not? Surely you have some of these things my Pastor teacher sir. How could you not?

In other words, you're saying bahblahblahblahblahblah.